NFL Week 9 Discussion - Indy/Pats and no TO

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:28 pm

Brando70 wrote:As for Skip Bayless, all you need to know is that when he was a Chicago Trib columnist, he swore up and down that the Bulls made a huge mistake by not drafting Lasagna Diop. He is probably my least favorite sports columnist of all time and embodies every negative characteristic you can think of about the profession.

That is AWESOME. I just don't get how a guy like him is able not only to get a writing gig with ESPN, but also become a TV personality. WTF? I don't know anyone who can stand him.

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:52 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:Between Scoop Jackson, Steven A. Smith and Jason Whitlock...its rather tired. None of them seem to write a single column without blaming the man...or saying the man is holding them down. Whatever...I've finally stopped reading their garbage.

I'm sure they're all tired of writing them, only they can't help but notice that without fail the mainstream media jumps to the defense of a) management and b) non-threatening black athletes at the expense of c) threatening black athletes. I mean really, if you pulled 100 articles about the TO thing, 97 of them are marching in lockstep, while three are not, yet it's the three that are tiresome?

TO promised the Eagles that if they traded for him he would be the best receiver in football and would take them to the Super Bowl, and he went out and did just that. In return, the Eagles gave him a bad contract, a coach who calls plays when he's down ten in the fourth like he's up ten in the fourth, and a quarterback who only stopped hyperventilating long enough to throw another interception. Dude got very, very upset, and I don't blame him. So he decided he didn't want any part of a team or an organization that treated him that way and now he's getting himself out the only way he can- by making his presence intolerable. His motives are transparently obvious, and yet they seem to have escaped all 97 of those columnists, who have put their collective heads together and can't figure out for the life of them why TO would be doing all this to poor Donovan and the poor coaching staff and all those nice people up in the front office.

As for the Colts, good for them, and good for Peyton Manning, who has played well in all of those losses save the 2003 AFC Championship game and yet somehow was held up to ridicule because he couldn't do what Tom Brady did. Last night, he did exactly what Tom Brady did- carved up a defense that didn't have Richard Seymour, Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, or any of the other defensive studs that have made it such an unequal task. Bottom line is that the better team has won each of the last five games, and if they meet again in the playoffs (which I wouldn't expect), the better team will likely win the sixth.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:58 pm

seanmac31 wrote:I'm sure they're all tired of writing them, only they can't help but notice that without fail the mainstream media jumps to the defense of a) management and b) non-threatening black athletes at the expense of c) threatening black athletes. I mean really, if you pulled 100 articles about the TO thing, 97 of them are marching in lockstep, while three are not, yet it's the three that are tiresome?

How can anyone think the TO thing is racist? The f*cking guy is a cancer...that's all there is to it...regardless of color.

Now, why every time some new story breaks, it's one of the above mentioned columnists who states that the story is racially motivated. The NBA Dress Code, the TO thing, Charlie Weiss getting an extention. I'm sick of reading it and it's tiresome.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:06 pm

TO didn't lead them to the Super Bowl, they made it through the NFC playoffs without him. Now, in the SB, the Pats probably would have blown them out if it wasn't for TO's efforts.

But the guy's a d*****bag. The very-white Jeff George was run out of Indy for bashing his coaches and teammates, but his act was tame compared to the sh*t TO has done.

Always playing the race card is often just lazy journalism, much like Skip Bayless. Sometimes they have a point, often times they do it to keep up there persona.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:12 pm

seanmac31 wrote:I'm sure they're all tired of writing them, only they can't help but notice that without fail the mainstream media jumps to the defense of a) management and b) non-threatening black athletes at the expense of c) threatening black athletes. I mean really, if you pulled 100 articles about the TO thing, 97 of them are marching in lockstep, while three are not, yet it's the three that are tiresome?

TO promised the Eagles that if they traded for him he would be the best receiver in football and would take them to the Super Bowl, and he went out and did just that. In return, the Eagles gave him a bad contract, a coach who calls plays when he's down ten in the fourth like he's up ten in the fourth, and a quarterback who only stopped hyperventilating long enough to throw another interception. Dude got very, very upset, and I don't blame him. So he decided he didn't want any part of a team or an organization that treated him that way and now he's getting himself out the only way he can- by making his presence intolerable. His motives are transparently obvious, and yet they seem to have escaped all 97 of those columnists, who have put their collective heads together and can't figure out for the life of them why TO would be doing all this to poor Donovan and the poor coaching staff and all those nice people up in the front office.

Give me a f*cking break. How is a seven-year, $49-million deal a "bad contract?" He and Rosenhaus didn't have to agree to it, but they did, so TO needs to honor the contract.

Plus it's not like Andy Reid joined the Eagles midway through TO's tenure there, changing the offensive philosophy. TO knew what he was getting into. The old saying, "You made the bed, now sleep in it, motherf*cker," comes to mind.

Contracts aren't supposed to be negotiable the minute you get a burr up your ass. And TO isn't the first player in the world to be upset with his contract or offensive involvement.

Contrast TO with Eric Moulds in Buffalo. Moulds barely was touching the ball this year while Losman was QB, and he made $5.3 million last season, including bonuses, a cool $3.8 million less than TO. I'm not saying Moulds is as good as TO, but he's one of the true elite receivers in the NFL.

So how does Moulds handle his anger? By keeping his mouth shut other than a few idle grumbles in the locker room after losses and playing football. In other words, the way it should be done.

No question TO made McNabb a better player last year. But "poor Donovan" still threw for 3,000+ yards in all three of his full seasons as a starter before TO's arrival, so it's not like McNabb is just another Akili Smith without TO.

Are you honestly saying TO being a f*cking arrogant, me-first jackass is his only way out of this situation? If so, you sound almost as ridiculous as Scoop Jackson.

Take care,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:22 pm

Brando70 wrote:As for Skip Bayless, all you need to know is that when he was a Chicago Trib columnist, he swore up and down that the Bulls made a huge mistake by not drafting Lasagna Diop. He is probably my least favorite sports columnist of all time and embodies every negative characteristic you can think of about the profession.

I totally agree. Bayless is the worst sports columnist I've ever read. In fact, Chicago really sucks when it comes to sports columnists. For every Bernie Lincicome and Skip Bayless we get rid of guys like Jay Mariotti and Rick Telander. It's been a non-stop carousel of "hard-edged, tell it like it is" morons.

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:27 pm

You can't pull the official contract numbers and use them to argue, becuase the specific provisions almost invariably make the numbers meaningless. The reality is that Owens had virtually no security with the contract and that it set him up to be cut in two years without seeing most of the actual money. It's a bad contract, and what's more, just about every NFL insider has acknowledged that it's a bad contract.

This guy actually gets what's going on. Surprise, surprise, this eluded Peter King and his ilk:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/w ... index.html

T.O.'s only option
NFL players have to act up to get out of bad situations
Posted: Tuesday November 8, 2005 11:46AM; Updated: Tuesday November 8, 2005 12:16PM

The latest drama created by Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens made me recall a conversation I had with Chicago Bears quarterback Jeff Blake last year. Blake was a backup with the Eagles at the time and I wanted to get his impression on Owens, particularly the way Owens had resurrected himself in Philadelphia after being such a headache in San Francisco. Blake told me people spent too much time focusing on Owens' antics. He added that when today's NFL players find themselves wanting to escape unhappy situations, they have no other choice but to act like fools. I laughed when Blake first told me that. I get it now.
Owens is no stranger to acting like a fool. In fact, he's perfected the art, taking his controversial behavior to heights that only Dennis Rodman or Ron Artest could relate to. But as I watched the end of Owens' career in Philadelphia play out this week -- a contentious conclusion that I once foolishly thought wouldn't happen because of Owens' success last season -- I came away thinking that this wasn't just about T.O. being T.O. It was about yet another unhappy NFL player deciding to drive his employer bonkers.
I'm convinced Owens knew this was the only card he could play back after the Eagles chose not to give him a new contract, and he played it as well as he manipulates the media. Let's be honest: This stopped being about money a long time ago because Owens certainly realized in the preseason that the Eagles weren't going to bend to his financial demands. It stopped being about attention last week, when Owens reportedly scuffled with Eagles team ambassador Hugh Douglas. Once Owens decided his relationship with the Eagles had soured, he was hell bent on one thing: making everybody's life miserable.
Of course, this isn't a new move for him. The Niners didn't want to re-sign him following the 2003 season because of a litany of issues, including Owens's constant trashing of two coaches (head coach Steve Mariucci and offensive coordinator Greg Knapp), the quarterback (Jeff Garcia) and anybody else whom he decided to hate.

But let's also understand that he's not the only person to choose this route in recent years. Take a look around the NFL. There are other players who have tired of their relationships with head coaches or entire organizations and ultimately opted to play the villain in order to leave town. They include:
•Corey Dillon. This New England Patriots running back grew so tired of losing in Cincinnati that he constantly bashed the Bengals organization and developed a reputation as a cancerous locker room influence. Once head coach Marvin Lewis arrived in 2003, Dillon received one more chance to change his attitude. He didn't. A couple months after that year's season finale -- a loss to Cleveland that concluded with Dillon tossing his helmet, shoulder pads and cleats into the stands as he left the field -- Cincinnati dealt him to the Patriots.
•Terry Glenn. This Dallas Cowboys wide receiver spent the entire 2001 season battling in New England with head coach Bill Belichick. The problems started when the NFL suspended Glenn for violating the league's substance policy and New England stopped paying installments on his signing bonus. From there it just got worse. Glenn didn't show up to camp. Belichick suspended him for a year. An arbitrator overturned the suspension. Glenn was deactivated for a hamstring injury that appeared bogus and he later missed several meetings and practices. You get the picture. Glenn was a Green Bay Packer by the following summer.
•Carl Pickens.Long before Owens became T.O., this former Cincinnati Bengals wide receiver was the poster child for disruptive behavior. He launched so many tirades against the team's front office that Cincinnati created the "loyalty clause" in 2000. The clause enabled the team to recoup all or part of a player's signing bonus if the player publicly criticized team officials, coaches or teammates. The Bengals never used that clause on Pickens. They decided to establish it after releasing him in 1999, shortly after he fired his last salvo against the team. He was three months shy of receiving a $3.5 million bonus at the time.

•Chester McGlockton. This former Pro Bowl defensive tackle played for the Chiefs and Jets, but it was in Oakland where he truly made his mark. Incensed by a lousy rookie contract that Raiders owner Al Davis never renegotiated -- even after McGlockton became one of the game's top players at his position -- McGlockton became legendary for taking plays off and blowing off coaches. His lowest moment: wearing a fur coat to practice while he stood on the sidelines nursing an injury during the 1997 season. The Raiders didn't re-sign him after he became a free agent a few months later.
•Kyle Turley. This hot-tempered offensive tackle unleashed plenty of venom on the New Orleans Saints. He once referred to Saints general manager Mickey Loomis as "a bean counter" during a radio interview. He knocked the team's facilities and complained about the food. He even turned down a multi-year contract extension at the end of the 2002 season -- and that was after Turley's well-publicized helmet-throwing incident during the 2001 season. When the Saints finally traded him to St. Louis in March 2003, Loomis said Turley "was the Rams' problem now."
•Keyshawn Johnson. When this Dallas Cowboys wide receiver tired of his tenure in Tampa Bay -- and more specifically his lousy relationship with Bucs head coach Jon Gruden -- he did everything possible to force management's hand. Whether he was needling Gruden in offensive meetings or berating him on the sidelines, Johnson made it clear that he was committed to ruining every day that he and Gruden spent together. With six games left in the 2003 season, the Bucs deactivated him. They traded him to Dallas the following offseason.
My point here is that players aren't blind or stupid. Like Owens, the ones who have enough leverage, audacity and money in the bank are going to do whatever it takes to get their way. Since football is the ultimate team sport, these players understand that the best means of escaping a bad situation is to become a divisive element. The last thing any NFL head coach wants to deal with is a constant distraction and Owens knew this. He also knew his options were limited.
What power do NFL players really have if they find themselves in situations they deem unhappy? The situation is even trickier when contract demands are involved. Holding out used to be the only viable course of action, but that has become a riskier tactic than it used to be. The player risks losing money while he sits out. He risks being ostracized by a public that has developed little sympathy for millionaires who want to make more millions. And now they also run the chance of having to return cash to the organization after resolving the conflict.
That was the case with San Diego Chargers wide receiver Keenan McCardell. He recently was ordered to repay the Tampa Bay Buccaneers $1.5 million after he sat out the first six games of last season in hopes of scoring a new deal. The Bucs filed a grievance claiming that McCardell -- whom they later traded to San Diego -- had violated his contract with his five-month holdout, and the arbitrator agreed. Essentially, McCardell was punished for not showing up for work. It was a ruling that sent tremorsacross the NFL landscape, even though it hardly received much publicity: The NFL owners have more muscle than ever.
So when you really think about it, the disgruntled NFL player reallyhas only two choices these days: Stay quiet or create a real-life version of the Jerry Springer show at the team facility. Most players would play it safe, but a guy like Owens was built for this kind of game. I'm sure he's sitting somewhere with a big grin on his face because this was exactly what he wanted once his hopes for a new contract vanished months ago. I'm also betting that somebody else will try the same course of action in the near future. When it comes to changing addresses in the NFL, acting like a fool is becoming a more convenient way ofdoing business.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:35 pm

Ahhh...I get it now. If you're not happy...you make everyone else miserable so that you can get out of that unhappy situation. What a crock of sh*t.

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:37 pm

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:39 pm

Rosenhaus wasn't the agent when that contract was signed. The NFLPA supposedly told him it was a bad deal but he signed it, probably because of the 49ers-Ravens-Eagles fiasco.

TO is being blamed for the deterioration of the Eagles defense, the poor running game, poor OL play and all the other things which go into a 4-4 record.

But if you look at his numbers, he's produced, although much of it was in meaningless situations like the 90 yard TD run when they were being blown out in Denver.

So it basically comes down to him being a PITA, not any failure of performance. BTW, he didn't have to act out to leave the Eagles. They were probably not going to pay him that big roster bonus due next year unless they won the SuperBowl or something and the fans would have rioted if the management didn't try to keep the team intact.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with all the cap money they've been saving up. They gave some to Westbrook but he needs to platoon with another runner because he's not going to carry the ball 25 times, much less 34 times like James carried last night.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:45 pm

seanmac31 wrote:Why?

Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:46 pm

Are there people out there that think this situation is the only reason TO is considered an idiot?

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:47 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:Why?
Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.

BINGO!!! Nail has been thoroughly hit on the head.

NoJoke · Post by **NoJoke** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:59 pm

You also have to remember that Rosenhous was not the agent who got TO this contract. Drew only gets paid by TO if TO gets a new contract. Otherwise the cut goes to the agent who negotiated the deal.

Me thinks that is a slight conflict of interest, no?

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:00 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:Why?
Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.

Did the Steelers say no they were not going to renegotiate under any circumstances or did they say come to camp and we'll negotiate in good faith?

And integrity as in not playing as well as you can? Owens is still in the top 5 or 10 of every receiving category despite not playing this last game.

He did talk about having a bad ankle earlier last week but by Friday, they upgraded his status and he was expected to play, if not start.

Vikings thought they'd be better off without Moss. Eagles better be sure they have so much talent on the team or talent they could acquire in the offseason that they could just let a top player go.

Then again, it might give them cover with their fans, to blame their poor season on this whole ruckus, even though TO doesn't play defense or run the ball or block or call the plays.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:00 pm

Right, but the difference between TO and all of the other morons mentioned in that story is that this is the SECOND time TO has done it, and this is only the SECOND franchise this asshole ever has played for.

So the pattern has been established. Sign TO, and you're bound to see him implode, whine about his contract and act like a total, team-disrupting jackass in a futile attempt to get his way.

Give me a f*cking break. How you can defend this guy is beyond me. It's a real shame that Hugh Douglas didn't dismember him.

Take care,
PK

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:03 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:Why?
Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.

Yep, he's got his money, his integrity, and no ring. If TO made a decision based on McNabb's Super Bowl performance that it wasn't going to happen in Philly and that he needed to go to Denver or somewhere else, I'm not going to judge him for it. He wants to win and the clock is ticking. If Hines doesn't mind when his quarterback chokes and then blames it on some ficticious broken toes, I'm not going to judge him for it, either. To each their own.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:04 pm

wco81 wrote:Did the Steelers say no they were not going to renegotiate under any circumstances or did they say come to camp and we'll negotiate in good faith?

The Steelers would not negotiate with Hines Ward until the final year of his contract. Ward thought about holding out last year as well.

The Steelers negotiated with Ward because his contract was to expire at the end of the year.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:04 pm

seanmac31 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:Why?
Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.
Yep, he's got his money, his integrity, and no ring. If TO made a decision based on McNabb's Super Bowl performance that it wasn't going to happen in Philly and that he needed to go to Denver or somewhere else, I'm not going to judge him for it. He wants to win and the clock is ticking. If Hines doesn't mind when his quarterback chokes and then blames it on some ficticious broken toes, I'm not going to judge him for it, either. To each their own.

HA! TO's fingers are pretty naked, too.

TO wants to win? My ass. If the Colts offered TO a deal tomorrow to play alongside Harrison for $3 million, there's no way in God's green Earth he would take it even though the Colts are unbeaten and arguably the best team in the NFL right now.

TO's anthem is the Randy Newman classic, "It's Money That Matters."

Take care,
PK

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:04 pm

Michael Wilbon was saying on PTI yesterday that some of the criticism of Vick's inaccurate passing was racially motivated, and that white quaterbacks don't get the same criticism. I was surprised because Wilbon doesn't usually cry racism like this. It was hilarious though, because the other guy pointed out that Jake Plummer has been hammered his whole career for wayward passing, and Jake is white. Poor old Wilbon had no good response because there was none.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:07 pm

seanmac31 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:Why?
Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.
Yep, he's got his money, his integrity, and no ring. If TO made a decision based on McNabb's Super Bowl performance that it wasn't going to happen in Philly and that he needed to go to Denver or somewhere else, I'm not going to judge him for it. He wants to win and the clock is ticking. If Hines doesn't mind when his quarterback chokes and then blames it on some ficticious broken toes, I'm not going to judge him for it, either. To each their own.

You have to be kidding me. The f*cking Eagles could have told TO they were giving him all of McNabb's money plus $10M a year and would sign Jay Fiedler as a replacement and TO would have been fine with that if he got paid.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:09 pm

Feanor wrote:Michael Wilbon was saying on PTI yesterday that some of the criticism of Vick's inaccurate passing was racially motivated, and that white quaterbacks don't get the same criticism

Wilbon should have spent the week in Pittsburgh after Maddox's performance a few weeks ago and the cry to replace him with Charlie Batch.

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:15 pm

Feanor wrote:Michael Wilbon was saying on PTI yesterday that some of the criticism of Vick's inaccurate passing was racially motivated, and that white quaterbacks don't get the same criticism. I was surprised because Wilbon doesn't usually cry racism like this. It was hilarious though, because the other guy pointed out that Jake Plummer has been hammered his whole career for wayward passing, and Jake is white. Poor old Wilbon had no good response because there was none.

Which would be ironic, as Jake Plummer has never been nearly as inaccurate as Vick. That said, I'm sympathetic to the racial charges more often than not. It's not like it's 1950 in Alabama anymore, the racism isn't overt, but it is still there and it is systemic.

Look at it this way- whether or not you agree or disagree with TO's behavior, there are plenty of rational grounds for it. And yet the overwhelming tenor of the media coverage is that TO is being completely irrational or stupid or both. That's a jump from reporting the news to shilling for management.

Speaking of Jake Plummer, I would expect to see TO land in Denver next year, with an overblown contract that is essentially a one-year deal. Then he'll go out and play well, as he always does.

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:16 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
seanmac31 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote: Ask Hines Ward why. He's got his money and will still go down as one of the most popular Steelers ever. He's got his money and his integrity.
Yep, he's got his money, his integrity, and no ring. If TO made a decision based on McNabb's Super Bowl performance that it wasn't going to happen in Philly and that he needed to go to Denver or somewhere else, I'm not going to judge him for it. He wants to win and the clock is ticking. If Hines doesn't mind when his quarterback chokes and then blames it on some ficticious broken toes, I'm not going to judge him for it, either. To each their own.
You have to be kidding me. The f*cking Eagles could have told TO they were giving him all of McNabb's money plus $10M a year and would sign Jay Fiedler as a replacement and TO would have been fine with that if he got paid.

Where is your evidence for that?

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:17 pm

The agent just came out arguing with the media defending TO.

If TO was smart, he would get rid of the agent. I think the agent has a lot to do with what TO is doing but it still doesn't excuse TO's behavior.

TO wants to win on his own terms.