OT: Tyson

[sfz_T-car]

I guess this is really the end of the line for Mike Tyson. Quitting against a 270 lb. white guy doesn't set him up for much a future in the sport. He ends up with a career that's truly stranger than fiction.

My daughter's comment when hearing the news tonight was "Tyson just sucks anyway, daddy". Of course she'd think that, she was born in 1992. If you're too young to have followed boxing in the late 80s, it's hard to fathom how dominant he was in his brief prime. The loss to Buster Douglas was in the second month of the 90s. The past fifteen years have been one thing after another, most of them bad.

Tyson has always been about as endearing as a irrational, violent, ear chewing, convicted rapist could be. He's provided a handful of memorable moments in the ring and made a lot of money for somebody. I honestly wish him the best, although his future will likely be as messed up as his past.

[Bill_Abner]

Quite possibly the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. A sad story, really. A troubled guy that has had leeches attached to him ever since his mentor died.

[Badgun]

Quite possibly the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. A sad story, really. A troubled guy that has had leeches attached to him ever since his mentor died.

Bill,
I don't know how you can call the guy overrated. Back when he was in his prime, I don't think there was ever a better fighter. There were so many guys that never got out of the first round with him. He sold more Pay Per Views than any fighter, and people bought them knowing they were only going to see a 2 minute fight if they were lucky. But, that's WHY they bought it. He was amazing as a 21 year old. He'll never be classified as a great strategic boxer, but he didn't have to worry about strategy because he was so powerful. We'll never know, but I doubt even the greatest fighters could have taken Tyson's punches.

Yeah, he was an out-of-control ass and he did a lot of crazy sh*t over the years, but one word I don't think you can use when describing Tyson is "overrated". I think washed up is a much better term.

[tjung0831]

Quite possibly the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. A sad story, really. A troubled guy that has had leeches attached to him ever since his mentor died.

Bill,
I don't know how you can call the guy overrated. Back when he was in his prime, I don't think there was ever a better fighter. There were so many guys that never got out of the first round with him. He sold more Pay Per Views than any fighter, and people bought them knowing they were only going to see a 2 minute fight if they were lucky. But, that's WHY they bought it. He was amazing as a 21 year old. He'll never be classified as a great strategic boxer, but he didn't have to worry about strategy because he was so powerful. We'll never know, but I doubt even the greatest fighters could have taken Tyson's punches.

Yeah, he was an out-of-control ass and he did a lot of crazy sh*t over the years, but one word I don't think you can use when describing Tyson is "overrated". I think washed up is a much better term.

I would use the term "somewhat overrated" because of the era he boxed in....there were no great fighters. If he's fighting Ali, Foreman, and Frazier every other fight he would have had some problems. He was powerful no doubt about it but he didn't have any real heavyweight competition so that will alway brings up questions marks.

[wco81]

All those short fights made him a quitter today.

Going into this fight, they pointedly asked him about going the distance and he claimed he's ready for a 10-round fight.

But it sounds like he just quit when he found he couldn't intimidate or knock out his opponent.

He'll have money troubles and they'll set up some fight and he'll say some crazy stuff and people will buy the PPV.

[Bill_Abner]

Mike Tyson had a HUGE punch in his prime. No argument from me there. He won a lot of his fights before he stepped in the ring because he literally scared guys to death; kinda like how Sonny Liston was back before he was exposed by Ali.

Every time, EVERY TIME Tyson fought a top fighter in his prime, he lost. Beating the s*** out of Bonecrusher Smith doesn't make anyone a great fighter. Tyson was a vicious knockout artist who was hyped up by the media because they sought the next great champ, and Tyson fit that to a tee. He just wasn't as good as the hype machine said he was.

Name me the best fighter Mike Tyson defeated. Light heavyweight Mike Spinks? 40 year old Larry Holmes? Pinky Thomas? Trevor Berbick? Tyson had several chances to improve his legacy when he fought other great fighters, and he wilted every single time. To me, that means he's terribly overrated when people start mentioning Tyson's greatness.

[pk500]

I agree, if you're using the term "overrated fighter." The guy was NOT a good fighter in the true sense of being a adept, flexible boxer who could use different styles to beat different opponents. Tyson never learned how to defend against a good punch in his life.

But if you're using the term "overrated slugger," then that's wrong. Tyson was one of the most fearsome and effective sluggers in heavyweight history. That's all he could do, but he did it damn well from 1984-88 or so.

Tyson never would have won the title if he fought in the 70s, though. He couldn't have beaten either Ali or Frazier. Tyson was the 1980s and 1990s version of George Foreman in the 70s. All punch, no defense, very little boxing ability. But man, could both of those guys punch, and man, did both strike fear into the hearts of their foes!

Take care,
PK

[tjung0831]

The toughest fight he had was back in 1987 against Tony Tucker, and I believe Tyson never would fight him again nor did he want to. Also don't forget the unofficial ass kicking that Mitch "Blood" Green gave him on the streets of New York!!!

[Bill_Abner]

PK, I use the term overrated when people (not meaning people here, just in general) say that Tyson was one of the best fighters ever. There are Tyson fans out there that believe with all their heart that a Tyson/Ali match with both in their primes would have been a great fight, some people convinced that Tyson would have beat Ali, which to me is just insane. Tyson was a great slugger, no question, but great fighters don't lose to Columbus' own Buster Douglas.

[pk500]

PK, I use the term overrated when people (not meaning people here, just in general) say that Tyson was one of the best fighters ever. There are Tyson fans out there that believe with all their heart that a Tyson/Ali match with both in their primes would have been a great fight, some people convinced that Tyson would have beat Ali, which to me is just insane. Tyson was a great slugger, no question, but great fighters don't lose to Columbus' own Buster Douglas.

Agreed, Bill. Ali would have beaten Tyson if both were in their primes. No doubt in my mind.

Ali beat Foreman, and Foreman was the 70s version of Tyson. Huge punching power, a real animal with few boxing skills. Joe Frazier was a much better, more complete fighter than Tyson, too.

If Tyson fought in the 70s in his prime, he probably would have been ranked third or fourth in the world, definitely behind Ali and Frazier, and maybe behind Ken Norton.

Anyone who puts Tyson in his prime in the same category as Louis, Marciano, Ali or Frazier can pass the pipe right down this way. In his day, Tyson was the most entertaining and fearsome boxer in his category. But that doesn't make him great.

Take care,
PK

[sfz_T-car]

It's hard to penalize a fighter because of the quality of his competition. It's the same argument that's been used to disparage Rocky Marciano. The Rock's critics say he only fought an old Joe Walcott, a small Archie Moore and an overrated Ezzard Charles. He beat them all and knew when to get out.

From 1985-89, Tyson fought every heavyweight who was willing to step in the ring with him. He destroyed them all in rapid succession. Hopefully that'll be his legacy for people old enough to remember. But I doubt it.

PK: Ken Norton? I'd bet the house on Tyson. Norton's chin had problems with big punchers. He'd beat the 2005 Tyson but wouldn't last three rounds against the 1987 model.

[Badgun]

PK, I use the term overrated when people (not meaning people here, just in general) say that Tyson was one of the best fighters ever. There are Tyson fans out there that believe with all their heart that a Tyson/Ali match with both in their primes would have been a great fight, some people convinced that Tyson would have beat Ali, which to me is just insane. Tyson was a great slugger, no question, but great fighters don't lose to Columbus' own Buster Douglas.

Bill, of course we'll never know, but I just don't think Ali could have taken Tyson's punches. I'm not a Tyson fan by any means, but he never failed to impress me as a young hungry fighter knocking people out. I will agree with you about the quality of people he fought, but as tjung mentioned, there just wasn't a wealth of decent heavyweight fighters around then. Tyson never dodged anyone. As the comparisons are always made about Ali and Marciano, so will the comparisons be made about Tyson with other legends.

If Ali or Frazier's noggins could have withstood Tyson's punches, then I'll agree that they would have beaten him, but he just hit so damn hard I don't know if even those guys could have taken his punch.

Hopefully this will finish a long, strange career because obviously this guy can't even beat a mid-carder anymore.

[Inuyasha]

If Tyson never went with Don King and stayed with the old Custamado crew, I think he would have ended up being one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

You have to remember how good young mike tyson was. That guy would beat people even before the fight started (spinks pleading for mike not to kill him before the fight). With the Custamado Rooney crew, Mike was still developing as a fighter and was such a raw talent at that time. He could have been developed into a much better techincal boxer too since he was so young.

But when he went with King, King introduced him to all the bad things in boxing. It was like a stop-gap in his growth process as a fighter and completely screwed him up.

[tjung0831]

If Tyson never went with Don King and stayed with the old Custamado crew, I think he would have ended up being one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

I believe it was Gus D'mato...

[sfz_T-car]

If Tyson never went with Don King and stayed with the old Custamado crew, I think he would have ended up being one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

I believe it was Gus D'mato...

Nope, it was Cuss Tomato

Only in America

[wco81]

All that's left is "Beyond the Glory" or "E! Hollywood True Story."

If they haven't been done yet.

[Bill_Abner]

Couldn't take Tyson's punches? Wow.

Ali had one of the best chins EVER. Have you seen Ali/Frazier I? 14th round, both men exhausted and Frazier lands the epitome of a perfect left hook, which was Joe's bread and butter punch, flush on Ali's jaw and Ali drops like wet cement because Frazier hit like a tank and Ali was exhausted. Ali was so good, so well conditioned..he bounced back up at the count of five. If THAT couldn't knock Ali out, nothing that Mike Tyson could dish out could do it either. Ali was in a class that Mike Tyson shouldn't even be allowed to visit on holidays.

Everyone said the EXACT same thing about Ali/Foreman. (and Clay/Liston for that matter) They all said Ali couldnt take George's power and that Foreman would kill him. We all know how that turned out and Foreman punched just as hard as Tyson did. Foreman was also feared like Tyson was. They are very comparable.

Now, that said, styles make fights. A Tyson/Frazier or Tyson/Foreman fight would be VERY different. (and over within 4 rounds) Remember what Foreman did to Joe? He knocked him down like 6 times in 2 rounds.

It's true that it's unfair to criticize fighters for the bums they are forced to fight (Roy Jones comes to mind) but Tyson did have chances to redeem himself and he failed each and every time he fought a top fighter. I still say that when your biggest victory is against Michael Spinks and Trevor Berbick then you cannot be considered an elite class fighter when you turn around and lose to Buster Douglas and then more or less quit against Holyfield.

Would Tyson's life and career been different if Davis and D'Amato had lived longer? We'll never know. But no way would I put Mike Tyson in the discussion of "greatest heavyweights ever". The career portfolio just does not support that at all.

Oh, and I'd take Tyson over Norton but I would take Larry Holmes in his prime over Tyson, w/o hesitation.

[pk500]

If Tyson never went with Don King and stayed with the old Custamado crew, I think he would have ended up being one of the top 10 fighters of all time.

I believe it was Gus D'mato...

For the record, it was Cus D'Amato.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Yeah, I agree with those who dispute whether Ali could take Tyson's punches. There's no doubt in my mind he could.

Ali took a savage, I mean savage, beating from Foreman in the "Rumble in the Jungle" in Zaire for the first six or seven rounds, gambling that Foreman would tire while Ali did the "Rope-a-Dope."

Sure enough, Foreman tired, and Ali had enough sack and strength then to attack Foreman and knock him out. But when I saw the first few rounds of that fight, I wondered just what in the hell Ali was doing?

That kind of creative strategy is something Tyson never was capable of, and it's what sets legends of the ages like Ali from legends of the decade like Tyson.

Another problem Tyson had was incompetent corner people after D;Amato died and Rooney was fired. Against Douglas, Tyson's eye started to swell in the first three rounds, and the morons in his corner didn't reach for an End-Swell until about the seven round or so, from what I can remember. Tyson couldn't see out of that swollen eye by then, but an End-Swell properly used in the early rounds would have cut down that swelling enough so Iron Mike could see.

Take care,
PK

[10spro]

Sadly, boxers usually take 3-4-5 more tries before they truly retire. In Tyson's case he admits he's in debt, but the guy was 1 SOB fighter in his prime.

[Jayhawker]

Yeah, I agree with those who dispute whether Ali could take Tyson's punches. There's no doubt in my mind he could.

Ali took a savage, I mean savage, beating from Foreman in the "Rumble in the Jungle" in Zaire for the first six or seven rounds, gambling that Foreman would tire while Ali did the "Rope-a-Dope."

Sure enough, Foreman tired, and Ali had enough sack and strength then to attack Foreman and knock him out. But when I saw the first few rounds of that fight, I wondered just what in the hell Ali was doing?

That kind of creative strategy is something Tyson never was capable of, and it's what sets legends of the ages like Ali from legends of the decade like Tyson.

This brings to mind another of my favorite documentaries ever in "When We Were Kings". A must for all Ali, boxing, and jazz/blues fans.

http://images.hollywood.com/images/quic ... nkings.mov

[pk500]

Phenomenal movie, Jayhawker. Great call. Shows how Ali was much bigger worldwide than just a sportsman.

Plus I get a quick ringside glimpse of my brother and a very good friend of ours during the film, as they were regular visitors to Ali's training camp in Pennsylvania when he trained for his biggest fights.

Ali groupies, big time.

Take care,
PK

[sfz_T-car]

Ali has cast a long shadow over the heavyweight division for the past 30 years. Holmes, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield and a bunch of lesser fighters didn't have a chance of measuring up against the ghost of Ali. Ali is always there, in numerous books, on ESPN Classic, in the consciousness of sports fans. He's a symbolic figure now; it's hard to reasonably assess his skills as a fighter anymore.

The sport has changed too. There are now so many belts in so many weight classes that nobody can dominate boxing like Ali did. I'm not hardcore fight fan but I try to follow the sport. But I had to look up the names of the four current heavyweight champs. They're at the bottom of the post if you think you can do better.

I think it's impossible for another fighter to transcend the sport like Ali did. I'm glad there was one of him but it's an awful lot to expect another one.

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WBC: Vitali Klitschko
WBA: John Ruiz (still after the Toney steroids scandal)
IBF: Chris Byrd
WBO: Lamon Brewster

It is a very, very bad time for the big men

[eman]

Im 30 years old this year and I fondly remember watching a young Mike Tyson destroy people in the late 80d's. He was explosive and thrilling to watch. As Ive grown older and wiser Ive come to realize what most of you guys have, Tyson was largely overrated.

Does anyone remember Tyson's interview after he lost to Holyfield in the first fight? I'll never forget the still punch-drunk Tyson acting like a choir boy when interviewed. It was strange watching Tyson - a self promoting lunatic and baddest man on the planet- act like a lost little child after getting his head smashed in. Although I was pulling for Evander that night Tyson became more endearing while losing and I cant explain that. I guess thats part of the mystery of Mike Tyson.

[GROGtheNailer]

Mike Tyson's Boxing Record ( just to 1991 )


45 Wins, 3 Losses, 38 Knockouts
1985
Mar 6 -- Hector Mercedes, Albany, New York, KO 1
Apr 10 -- Trent Singleton, Albany, New York, KO 1
May 23 -- Donald Halpern, Atlantic City, KO 4
Jun 20 -- Rick Spain, Atlantic City, KO 1
Jul 11 -- John Alderson, Atlantic City, KO 1
Jul 19 -- Larry Sims, Poughkeepsie, New York, KO 3
Aug 15 -- Lorenzo Canady, Atlantic City, KO 1
Sep 5 -- Mike Johnson, Atlantic City, KO 1
Oct 9 -- Donnie Long, Atlantic City, KO 1
Oct 25 -- Robert Colay, Atlantic City, KO 1
Nov 1 -- Sterling Benjamin, Latham, New York, KO 1
Nov 13 -- Eddie Richardson, Houston, KO 1
Nov 22 -- Conroy Nelson, Albany, New York, KO 2
Dec 6 -- Sammy Scaff, New York, KO 1
Dec 27 -- Mark Young, Colonie, New York, KO 1

1986
Jan 11 -- David Jaco, Albany, New York, 1
Jan 24 -- Mike Jamison, Atlantic City, KO 5
Feb 16 -- Jesse Ferguson, Troy, New York, KO 6
Mar 10 -- Steve Zouski, Uniondale, New York, KO 3
May 3 -- James Tillis, Glen Falls, New York, W 10
May 20 -- Mitch Green, New York, W 10
Jun 13 -- Reggie Gross, New York, KO 1
Jun 28 -- William Hosea, Troy, New York, KO 1
Jul 11 -- Lorenzo Boyd, Swan Lake, New York, KO 2
Jul 26 -- Marvis Frazier, Glen Falls, New York, KO 1
Aug 17 -- Jose Ribalta, Atlantic City, KO 10
Sep 6 -- Alfonso Ratliff, Las Vegas, KO 2
Sep 22 -- Trevor Berbick, Las Vegas, KO 2
(Won WBC heavyweight title)

1987
Mar 3 -- James "Bonecrusher" Smith, Las Vegas, W 12
(Won WBA heavyweight title)
May 30 -- Pinklon Thomas, Las Vegas, KO 6
(Retained WBA-WBC heavyweight titles)
Aug 1 -- Tony Tucker, Las Vegas, W 12
(Retained WBA-WBC, won IBF heavyweight titles)
Oct 16 -- Tyrell Biggs, Atlantic City, KO 7
(Retained world heavyweight title)

1988
Jan 22 -- Larry Holmes, Atlantic City, KO 4
(Retained world heavyweight title)
Mar 20 -- Tony Tubbs, Tokyo, KO 2
(Retained world heavyweight title)
Jun 22 -- Michael Spinks, Atlantic City, KO 1
(Retained world heavyweight title)

1989
Feb 25 -- Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, KO 5
(Retained world heavyweight title)
Jul 21 -- Carl Williams, Atlantic City, KO 1
(Retained world heavyweight title)

1990
Feb 11 -- James "Buster" Douglas, Tokyo, KO by 10
(Lost world heavyweight title)
Jun 16 -- Henry Tillman, Las Vegas, KO 1
Dec 8 -- Alex Stewart, Atlantic City, KO 1

1991
Mar 18 -- Razor Ruddock, Las Vegas, KO 7
Jun 28 -- Razor Ruddock, Las Vegas, W 12


The early Tyson was suprisingly very fast by the way, not too many realize how fast he really was plus he had great head movement in his early years...when defense was a part of his game and when he was well-trained. Add the punchiong power, he was good man.

Where I think he lacked was in heart, he didnt have the champions heart like some of the other greats, he didnt have that impose your will at any cost attitude. I think if he would of had that missing component he could of been one if not the greatest. But..he isnt.