OT - Astros shut out for 5th time in 20 games

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:30 pm

I remember not too long ago they went most of the season without being shut out.

Bagwell just looks lost at the plate.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:39 pm

Things aren't looking good when you don't score a run in a series against the Pirates. On the other hand, at least they only gave up four runs in the series.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:46 pm

One word... Beltran.

Makes the whole lineup much different.

Todd

HouOilers · Post by **HouOilers** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:47 pm

I dont need no experts to know if we keep playing like this we'll be losing 105 games this year

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:55 pm

HouOilers wrote:I dont need no experts to know if we keep playing like this we'll be losing 105 games this year

Maybe they'll end up with the number one pick in the draft.

j/k Can't see them struggling for too long. Especially once they get Berkman back.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:25 pm

MizzouRah wrote:One word... Beltran.

Makes the whole lineup much different.

Oh please...they had that guy for like half the season last year. They still made the playoffs quite a few times before he arrived. I think the biggest difference is not having a healthy Berkman. He's much more of a threat than Beltran is...especially on offense.

rubba19 · Post by **rubba19** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:27 pm

At least your team can realistically compete for the playoffs.

Mine can't.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:33 pm

BTW, I still can't figure this one out.

People seem to be enamored with Carlos Beltran's bat...and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because dude can do everything fairly well (running and defense especially well). He only hit freakin' .267 or something in that area. Berkman hit .318 last year and still has the 30 homers and 100+ rbis. Beltran, who had more homers 38 to 30 last year, ended up with a batting average nearly 50 points less than Lance did. Obviously Beltran is a much better fielder, but still...I'd rather have Berkman in the lineup from a pure run-scoring standpoint.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:38 pm

DB, it could be due to his huge performance in the playoffs last year. But I agree with you, compare Beltran and Abreu's stats and then compare the amount of press each one gets.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:42 pm

Dave wrote:DB, it could be due to his huge performance in the playoffs last year. But I agree with you, compare Beltran and Abreu's stats and then compare the amount of press each one gets.

Yeah, but even before the playoffs, everyone was on Beltran's jock (see Javi for the biggest example). Abreu is one of the best players in baseball and he gets virtually no pub whatsoever. I still haven't figured that one out...(kinda like why Shawn Marion doesn't get more accolades in the NBA).

But that got me thinking more about the Beltran/Berkman comparison.

Now, I'm sure some of you will go find some random obscure stat that specifies Beltran is a better offensive player. Now, runs scored may be a big deal, and Beltran scored more runs last year...but part of that has to do with the guys behind you coming through with RISP. The only thing I can attribute that to is that Beltran stole nearly 20 more bases then Berkman did. But then again Berkman walked almost 40 more times than Beltran did. So the only thing I can assume is that the guys protecting and hitting behind Beltran (in the crappy KC lineup, and then with Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman last year) are the ones who pushed him across the plate more. I don't know, I just can't really explain the 17 run difference.

I still just think Berkman is the main reason that Houston is struggling to score runs. The same thing happened to the Braves when Andruw was struggling mightily. Sometimes, there is just that one guy that makes your lineup go...I think Berkman is that guy in Houston. No one in the lineup outside of Biggio and Bagwell scares me...Berkman does. When he gets back, I think Houston fan will have something to cheer about.

thejake · Post by **thejake** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:01 pm

Db is right about berkman. We need him back bad. Jason Lane is playing better than expected and so are Chris Burke and Willy Taveras. Bagwell is a major problem. He gets to bat in the 3 hole based on reputation. When Berkman gets back he or Lane should bat in the 3 hole with the other batting cleanup. Then let Bagwell bat 5th followed by Ensberg, Ausmus and Willy. Willy Taveras will be the lead off hitter by the end of the year if he keeps playing well. In an ideal world, burke would get a lot more playing time at 2nd over Biggio. But he has to settle for outfield playing time now. Also Mike Lamb should get more time ideally at 1st base. He might be our best hitter.

There pitching has been outstanding and that should keep them in games. Wait until yall see E. Astacio when we use a 5th starter next time. He cam over in the billy wagner trade. Guy is stud. Overall I am not too upset. They are a young team and hopefully they will get better as the season goes on. On opening day the entire outfield was different then last year.

rubba19 · Post by **rubba19** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:03 pm

In a park like MM, Berkman may be a better fit. But put him at Kauffman Stadium or any filed with the big outfield and large gaps, and Beltran fits better there.

I'm biased, but to me, Beltran is the better talent. Softer, but more talented.

New York should show wheter he can play on the big stage for an entire season. He seemed to go through the motions in KC for large periods of time.

BTW - Mike Sweeney hit behind Beltran in KC (when he is healthy which is very hit or miss these days).

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:15 pm

Yes, Berkman is more important to the offense than Beltran was. Kent was a big loss, and Bagwell not being able to hit anymore is a loss, too.

I think Bagwell should stay in the 3 slot so that he gets more stuff to hit. He's just flailing at stuff in the dirt nowadays.

cdastros · Post by **cdastros** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:50 pm

I think the Astros will be ok once Berkman comes back. The good news is that Berkman might be back buy the end of this month. The bad news is that it will take some time to get his swing back and it seems like they are rushing him a little. I hope he doesn't have a setback.

The Astros have two good young pitchers in the minors. Ezequiel Astacio is one of them and he will replace Brandon Duckwoth as the 5th start. Zeke has great stuff and could improve an already dominate pitching staff.

I think ultimately the Astros only have to have an average offense to be a playoff contender. Plus they could make a trade like thay did last year to get another bat to help the offense.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:25 pm

Roger Clemens is such a freakin master. I can't believe that he is still pitching so well after 21 seasons. I agree with everyone on the whole Berkman DL situation, when he comes back it'll give the whole offense a new look and then they should start scoring runs. Plus I have Berkman on the DL in my espn league so I can't wait to see him back at the plate.

Remember how far out of the running Houston was last year and then they just started going nuts and winning game after game after game. Right now it's early so this stuff doesn't matter too much. Look at the Yankees. We all know they'll be in first at the end of the year after a miserable start to the season.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:43 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
MizzouRah wrote:One word... Beltran.

Makes the whole lineup much different.
Oh please...they had that guy for like half the season last year. They still made the playoffs quite a few times before he arrived. I think the biggest difference is not having a healthy Berkman. He's much more of a threat than Beltran is...especially on offense.

I'd take Beltran all day over Berkman. Say what you will, but Beltran was the ONLY reason Houston made it to a Game 7 last year vs the Cardinals.

He only batted like .258 but he had 23 hrs and 50+ rbi's for the Stros last year.. NOT including the playoffs.

Who cares, the Astros will be so many games behind the Cardinals come All-Star break anyway. They have pitching, but 0 hitting.

Todd

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am

I wouldn't worry about it. It's not like the astros will hit like crap for much longer and even if they do they will just pick up a better hitter before the deadline.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:02 am

dbdynsty25 wrote:BTW, I still can't figure this one out.

People seem to be enamored with Carlos Beltran's bat...and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because dude can do everything fairly well (running and defense especially well). He only hit freakin' .267 or something in that area. Berkman hit .318 last year and still has the 30 homers and 100+ rbis. Beltran, who had more homers 38 to 30 last year, ended up with a batting average nearly 50 points less than Lance did. Obviously Beltran is a much better fielder, but still...I'd rather have Berkman in the lineup from a pure run-scoring standpoint.

its b/c he can steal bases too, "five tool guy." That's why people get so enamoured with him.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:02 am

MizzouRah wrote:Say what you will, but Beltran was the ONLY reason Houston made it to a Game 7 last year vs the Cardinals.

You are correct...that doesn't mean that Berkman isn't just as valuable on a day to day basis.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:07 am

dbdynsty25 wrote:
MizzouRah wrote:Say what you will, but Beltran was the ONLY reason Houston made it to a Game 7 last year vs the Cardinals.
You are correct...that doesn't mean that Berkman isn't just as valuable on a day to day basis.

I agree with you here. I just don't think he does for the Mets lineup what he did to the Astros lineup. I'm not the owner or GM of the Astros, but if I would have lost Jeff Kent, there would be no way in hell I would have let Beltran go.

In other news, I'm so glad the Cardinals signed Mark Grudzielanek. If he stays healthy, he could become the Tommy Herr of this team.

Todd

rubba19 · Post by **rubba19** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:33 pm

MizzouRah wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:
MizzouRah wrote:Say what you will, but Beltran was the ONLY reason Houston made it to a Game 7 last year vs the Cardinals.
You are correct...that doesn't mean that Berkman isn't just as valuable on a day to day basis.
I agree with you here. I just don't think he does for the Mets lineup what he did to the Astros lineup. I'm not the owner or GM of the Astros, but if I would have lost Jeff Kent, there would be no way in hell I would have let Beltran go.

In other news, I'm so glad the Cardinals signed Mark Grudzielanek. If he stays healthy, he could become the Tommy Herr of this team.

Todd

...or, if his history is correct, another Bo Hart.....

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:17 pm

Please Rubba. That's not even a fair comparison. Grudz is a talented ball player that fields well and hits even better. As long as he stays healthy, he'll have quite a productive year. Hart should never have been considered an everday second baseman in the first place.

You're just jealous the Royals and the other MLB teams passed on a guy by the name of Pujols. Heck, Pujols was even playing ball in your back yard of Kansas City and the scouts missed him. He was finally selected in the 15th round!

No doubt if I was starting a team, the first everyday player I'd choose would be Mr. Pujols. What a f'n stud!

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:21 pm

Don't worry, the KC fans despise St. Louis fans. No biggie.. Super Bowl ring, NL Champs, etc...

Todd

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:28 pm

MizzouRah wrote:Don't worry, the KC fans despise St. Louis fans. No biggie.. Super Bowl ring, NL Champs, etc...

Todd

They did win the '85 World Series. Then again, it was made possible by the absolute worst blown call in professional sports history. Thank you Mr. Deckinger.

HouOilers · Post by **HouOilers** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:43 pm

ya KC fans will always have that on Card fans, that blown call to win the WS. KC can go 0-162 but one mention of that game and Card fans fall into depression.

As for Grud, he fits in well with the Cards team since they have big name players surrounding him. But if he was on another team less talented, I dont think you would have him as an everyday player.