FANTASTIC Colin McRae Rally 3 news for Xbox owners!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:14 pm

Randy:
 
 I just thought of something that hinges at some of the differences between you and I in our debate over CART and the IRL.
 
 You are a racing purist, in which the racing and cars and drivers are all that matters. That´s honorable as hell -- seriously.
 
 I love racing, and I love the competition. So in that regard, I´m also a purist. But since I work in the business and really enjoy and am fascinated by it, the business side of the sport -- marketing, the industry, sponsorship, marquee value, name equity, PR, etc. -- factor into some of my responses. I´m always looking at the sport from both sides, whereas I think you look at it from more of an enthusiast´s standpoint, which is great.
 
 So while I don´t think I´m a shill in here, I will admit that I consider both sides of racing -- on and off the track -- often when forming opinions.
 
 You probably already figured that out, but I wanted to put that on the record. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:47 pm

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 On 2002-12-05 16:11, pk500 wrote:
 Rodster:
 
 All very good points. CART´s road and street races are well attended.
 
 It will be interesting to see how the relationship between Bernie and CART shakes out. It´s a perilous line for Bernie to walk because if CART changes its regulations -- which doesn´t require working around the ponderous Concorde Agreement like in F1 -- then its road course shows could become quite a spectacle again. And that would put F1 in a bad light, especially if CART runs a handful of road courses in Europe.
 
 -------------------------
 **I think the ties between F1 and CART will get stronger over time it already has. The regulations won´t change much if any at all. It could have if Bernie decided to buy CART which the rumors were pretty hot and heavy. He backed off which was smart cause he has his friend running the show at CART. F1 is already in a bad light and that´s why Bernie turned his attention to CART. Keep in mind PK that the Concorde Agreement expires in 2008. Many of the current teams in F1 are complaining over the lack of revenue sharing which Bernie gets a staggering 53% of all TV revenue. They have threatened to leave F1 including Ferrari if TV revnenue sharing doesn´t improve. So Bernie now has CART to dangle over the other teams just in case the threat becomes real.
 
 Last year we say CART race at the site of the Canadian GP. This coming year he might add another 3 hollowed Formula 1 venues to CART´s schedule..SPA, Brands Hatch and Estoril. You can bet F1 teams will take notice. CART is real big in Europe, Australia and Mexico. **
 
 
 Very interesting times in open-wheel racing worldwide, for sure. NASCAR may be booming financially, but it´s not as much fun on or off the track as open wheel. I think you, Randy and I can agree on that.
 
 Bottom line: We all love open-wheel racing, and that´s a common bond. We´re brethren in that regard, bitching at each other and fighting each other all the way. But we do share that common bond. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 ---------------------------------------
 That´s good to hear cause trying to argue or debate different forms of racing is like trying to convince Europeans that the NFL is real Football....hehe
 
 
 By the way, the WRC is my second-favorite form of racing in the world behind the IRL. So I´m not an oval-only guy, by any regard. I´m also up half the night on the second weekend of every June, listening to Radio Autosport from Le Mans or watching the 24 Hours on Speed. There are a handful of events I must witness first-hand, as a spectator, in no order:
 
 1. An F1 race at Spa. Dream on, it looks like now.
 -------------------
 Looks like a CART Race next year....hehe
 
 2. A WRC stage in either Finland, Sweden or Wales.
 3. 24 Hours of Le Mans.
 4. Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch.
 5. Bathurst 1000 in Australia.
 6. Either Marlboro Masters F3 at Zandvoort or the Macau Grand Prix F3 race.
 7. The Goodwood Festival of Speed. In fact, this might be at the top of the list.
 8. The Knoxville Nationals.
 
 And, oh, what I wouldn´t give to see the WRC come to the U.S. That would be nirvana.
 
 Randy and Rod, what are your dream events to witness live?
 -----------------------------
 1) I just said I don´t like Nascar and yet I would love to attend The Daytona 500
 2) My other choices would be to see an F1 Race at Monza, Spa or Silverstone.
 3) I agree I would love to see a World Rally Stage in Sweden (Ice and Snow) or the Spain World Rally to see all the Spanish Babes !
 
 Take care,
 PK
 
 [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 16:17 ]
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pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:02 pm

>>>Keep in mind PK that the Concorde Agreement expires in 2008. Many of the current teams in F1 are complaining over the lack of revenue sharing which Bernie gets a staggering 53% of all TV revenue. They have threatened to leave F1 including Ferrari if TV revnenue sharing doesn´t improve. So Bernie now has CART to dangle over the other teams just in case the threat becomes real.<<<
 
 Good point, but it´s also overrated. Bernie will be 76 or 77 in 2008. He´s also a billionaire. Why would he need to use CART as a chit against the F1 team owners? He may not be alive in 2008, and he also could be out of the business. His legacy is secure, and his family wealth is set for generations. CART´s monetary value is dwindling. Its cash reserves could be nearly gone after 2003 due to the ESP program, buying TV time, co-promoting races and handling pending litigation from Joe Heitzler and the wrongful death suits filed by the Moore and Gonzalez families.
 
 Forrest Bond of RaceFax did a very detailed report on CART´s financial state and its future for 2003 last week. Basically, Forrest reported in great detail how CART could be close to broke at the end of 2003. So how will that help Bernie in 2008 unless he buys CART, which we agree is unlikely?
 
 >>>CART is real big in Australia, Europe and Mexico.<<<
 
 Rod, I´ll give you Australia and Mexico. But Europe? Both of CART´s recent forays into Europe were failures and are gone. Rockingham had an attendance of 20,000 this year. It probably would be different on a road course.
 
 P.S. regarding Spa: The only type of car I would want to see at Spa is F1. Watching any other car -- sports cars, touring cars, CART, anything -- there would be like watching football being played by the New York Giants in Yankee Stadium in the 1950s. Just not right. When I think Spa, I think F1. That´s why it´s such a crime that the World Championship is leaving the track.
 
 P.P.S. regarding WRC: Yeah, a Spanish rally stage would be cool. And I´d want to see Panizzi do another one of those awesome hand-brake donuts while in the lead, too! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 05-12-2002 19:06 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:32 am

The comments about seeing the business side of it as well as the economics are well-taken. To me, unfortunately, they are a necessarily evil which must exist in order to finance what is at its essence a costly sport.
 
 I am in absolute agreement that many CART races and almost all F1 races suffer from a serious lack of passing. But to me, it´s not as much that the pass succeed as much as whether it´s able to be attempted. When aerodynamics force you to be perpetually a car length or two behind the guy ahead, the racing suffers. This is largely an aerodynamic problem, and one I believe that will be addressed.
 
 Getting on to the subject of video games (fancy that!), one of the major problems with racing games is the lack of realistic balance between the human and AI drivers. You shouldn´t be able to just dive in and complete a pass easily. It should be earned by edging ever closer and then finally having the cajones to go for it. Either that or pressure the driver ahead into a mistake (something AI cars are not vulnerable to...psychology, but it could be simulated if they´d just try).
 
 As a gamer, a lot of my love of road courses comes from the great gaming they offer. Having spent countless hours on Hawaii, with a friend, with NROS, and many other sims, I´ve put in the hours and hours of setup tweaking, and pounding out lap after lap around in circles, to the point where I was LITERALLY falling asleep at the wheel from "highway hypnosis" late at night. In my opinion, oval racing doesn´t offer the same bang that road racing does in video games, mainly because it just isn´t as fundamentally interesting to go around in circles many times. Alertness tends to fall off once driving the line becomes instinctive, and when alertness falls off, boredom sets in. This can be largely dealt with by making sure you´re always pack racing, and thus always on your toes. Also, oval racing offers a distinct advantage over road racing: Learning the course is pretty easy. It´s after all a matter of left turns, and once you know the technique for a total of 2 entry points, you´re pretty well set, only at the mercy of a car setup going away on you and of course the need to compete.
 
 A road course can involve you for many hours, and even on its own, requires lots more concentration just to keep consistent laps going. The alertness with or without traffic keeps you tense and on edge. So lapping is a little more exciting and the need to be ´pack racing´ isn´t as big. Also, because the relative speeds of the cars are so similar and fairly predictable, online gaming is easier with oval racing. Between the two factors, with a healthy dose of natural NASCAR popularity, you have a reason why NASCAR video games do well. Easy to pick up, easy to play with up to 42 friends online. However, ask some of those online players to pound out practice laps and tweak setups to try to gain another few tenths on their time, and likely you´re not going to get a taker. So the NASCAR shelf-life isn´t as long as it should be.
 
 Now look at the Codemasters IRL sim. Ovals, with (if they do it right), more white knuckle pack racing because you dare not touch another car, and there is a potential for the same kind of gaming that you get with NASCAR sims. But what else is brought to the table? Basically nothing. It´s oval racing without the paint swapping and with fewer than full 43 car WC Fields.
 
 The biggest argument for a great CART sim is because the equipment is better than F1 for racing (in terms of passing, equality of packages, etc), and because you get some ovals and lots of road courses. Every track has its own personality and must be learned on its own terms, and cannot be memorized as easily as an oval. It is absolutely NOT "NASCAR without the paint swapping".
 
 So from a video gamers standpoint, I´m seeing the IRL sim as another NASCAR game but with open wheel cars.
 
 I´ll take Pro Race Driver, Colin McRae, and any other half decent road racer over that. Gaming makes road racing more fun for me, and the real sport is more appreciated by me.
 
 I just wish Americans had a better appreciation for road racing, as the Brits do with their exciting touring cars, their own version of "NASCAR"

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:54 am

Randy:
 
 We´re back to talking about gaming? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Great points all around. That´s why I love WRC so much. Not only is each stage different in a rally, but so are the surfaces. Just another variable.
 
 And I´ve always sniffed at the suggestion that NASCAR Winston Cup cars are identifiable to the "common man" because they look like passenger cars. Bullshit. Passenger cars have doors, don´t have roll cages, use fuel injection, etc.
 
 I don´t think there´s a car that looks more like an average grocery getter than a WRC car. Everyone has hauled ass on some back road with a small car somewhere sometime during their lives. That´s why I think WRC is the ultimate "common man´s" motorsport.
 
 Take care, dude,
 PK

Post by **Jared** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:31 pm

Hey....as a PS2 owner, I´m pretty upset about CMR3 coming out late on the PS2. Can´t we Playstation peeps get some love?
 
 (And I´d love to give my two cents on the CART/IRL/F1/NASCAR debate. They all suck when compared to....powerboat racing!!!! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> )
 
 (Sorry...just wanted to goad PK and Randy into a tag-team against someone....that would be a sight to behold...)

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:15 pm

PK, Randy made some real good game racing points. I´m with him I love road racing games much better than Nascar or any Oval type racing game.
 
 Now I have Outlaw Sprint Car (PS2) and Thunder 2003 for the Xbox. But like Randy said after a while it just gets too repetitive and boring. PK speaking of WRC did you by chance try Sony´s WRC game on the PS2? It was easy but man was it fun.
 
 I hear the next version WRC II Extreme is going to be very sim like.
 
 I too wish Americans would appreciate more Road Course Racing. It is fun to watch.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:38 am

Rodster:
 
 When it comes to circuit racing, racing is just as important as driving to me. So I have no problem with a good oval game, like World of Outlaws.
 
 WoO never became boring to me because I was constantly in traffic or trying to hold off or catch someone who was within inches of me. I don´t get that from a pure F1 or CART sim, as the racing just isn´t as close in most road races. That´s the nature of road-course racing, I know. But I do enjoy the challenge of navigating traffic or picking lines to overtake lead cars ahead on ovals just as much as I enjoy setting up a car for an outbraking pass entering a tight corner in a road-racing game.
 
 Road racing is a more pure form of driving, for sure. But I enjoy the racecraft of oval racing.
 
 Both road racing and oval racing require maximum concentration. But I think more of that concentration in road racing is required to drive the car rather than race the car. Whereas in oval racing, more of that concentration is devoted to racing the car than driving the car.
 
 You always hear oval racers talking about working on the car to get it running better in traffic, as they´re racing more. Road racers talk about working on the car to get it running better, period, as they´re driving more.
 
 Does this make any sense?
 
 I played WRC for the PS2. It was very pretty but way too easy. I won the championship by 40-plus points on the medium level and cruised to the title by nearly 20 points on the toughest level, too, the first time out of the box. Randy nailed the problem with WRC in his review -- the driving model had WAY too much grip. It was way too easy to drive the car on all surfaces.
 
 I don´t own a PS2 anymore, so I won´t be playing WRC II. I can only hope it´s a better sim than the first game, yet it will be pretty tough to stack up to the brilliance of Colin McRae Rally 2.0 for the PSX.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 06-12-2002 20:42 ]

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:34 am

>> WoO never became boring to me because I was constantly in traffic or trying to hold off or catch someone who was within inches of me.>>
 
 Hm, I got bored with WoO. I thought it was a decent sim, but everything was so bland looking, and the whole game got really repetitive for me. I just didn´t feel the game urging me to get better.
 
 >> But I do enjoy the challenge of navigating traffic or picking lines to overtake lead cars ahead on ovals just as much as I enjoy setting up a car for an outbraking pass entering a tight corner in a road-racing game. >>
 
 I know what you mean. But a pass in a road race is a more adrenalin inducing experience than it is in an oval.
 
 >>Both road racing and oval racing require maximum concentration. >>
 
 On most oval games I´ve played, thel level of concentration required is much lower. Demonstration? I can carry on a phone conversation while knifing through traffic in NASCAR. I tried that in GPL and flew off the track in short order ´cause I missed my braking point.
 
 >>>You always hear oval racers talking about working on the car to get it running better in traffic, as they´re racing more. Road racers talk about working on the car to get it running better, period, as they´re driving more. >>
 
 Well, I think Bobby Rahal expressed it best regarding oval racing: "If you try to go fast when your car is not set up to go fast, you´ll crash". Car setup makes up a higher percentage of success on an oval than it does in a road course. As a result, you can be the better driver, but if the guy ahead of you has a better setup, you´re going to be hard pressed to win, as the act of making up for the worse setup will increase tire wear and therefore further degrade performance. True to an extent in road courses, but the driver is a bigger factor.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:39 am

>>>On most oval games I´ve played, thel level of concentration required is much lower. Demonstration? I can carry on a phone conversation while knifing through traffic in NASCAR. I tried that in GPL and flew off the track in short order ´cause I missed my braking point.<<<
 
 Hey, maybe you´re a true oval racer, deep down. Talent emerges. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 >>>Well, I think Bobby Rahal expressed it best regarding oval racing: "If you try to go fast when your car is not set up to go fast, you´ll crash". Car setup makes up a higher percentage of success on an oval than it does in a road course. As a result, you can be the better driver, but if the guy ahead of you has a better setup, you´re going to be hard pressed to win, as the act of making up for the worse setup will increase tire wear and therefore further degrade performance. True to an extent in road courses, but the driver is a bigger factor.<<<
 
 True, but your point makes my appreciation of a driver like Sam Hornish Jr., who can drive through a bad car to get a good finish on an oval, even greater.
 
 I once had a conversation with Sam´s crew chief, Kevin Blanch, in which he told me a good story about when Panther Racing first started testing Sam. The team deliberately used a setup that a previous driver considered "undriveable," causing that driver to park the car during tests and demand setup changes.
 
 Well, Sam took that setup and just kept working on the bars in the car and taking different lines and entry points in every corner, working his way around the car´s limitations. Sam ran the full test segment with that setup, came into the pits, and Blanch pulled him in for a debrief.
 
 Blanch was amazed how Hornish maintained his speed despite the setup, and Sam quietly said, in Sam style, "Well, I just worked around it."
 
 Right there, Blanch said, they knew Hornish was special. Panther hired him about a month later, and all Sam has done in his first two seasons with the team is win consecutive IRL titles. Now, I know you don´t consider that much of an accomplishment, Randy, but Sam did beat the two-time defending CART champion, Gil de Ferran, and championship team, Marlboro Team Penske, this year.
 
 So, yes, setup means more for oval racing. But it´s also easier for a driver to manhandle a bad setup on a road course than it is on an oval, which only increases my admiration for guys who can do it on an oval.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 07-12-2002 06:41 ]