Racing Sim Thread, Part II

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:22 pm

PK, I was going to PM an LFS thought or two to you, but thought I'd air them here instead.

I finally got round to trying it tonight, having spent the last couple of nights fulfilling a childhood ambition to become world champ at Master level on Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco GP 2. Only took me 15 years to work out the 7-speed manual box is the only one worth using. Anyway, Live For Speed...

Annoyance the first: I cannot for the life of me work out how to go from watching a replay to being back in the car at the point where the replay ends. I can restart the session, but I can't seem to just rejoin my car. I assume I'm overlooking something obvious, but don't feel like the interface (oh - I don't like the interface. Nuh uh.) helps. Help me...

Annoyance the second: From a couple of quick runs in the FBMW, the AI appear to be as dumb as a box of rocks. Chief among their deficiencies is an apparent unwillingness to accept that if I'm passing on the insde, they really shouldn't turn in. Since 99% of my racing is offline (the DSP poker nights are the only online races I run) this is a major pain.

The good:

It's a tease. It took me only a couple of laps of the demo track to get within a second or two of the Pro AI, and every subsequent lap has been spent chipping away at that mark. After 10 or so laps I'd got down to regular low 1:17s and the odd high 1:16, and I know there's plenty more in the default car, that it's to be found in increments here and there, and that I'm doomed to spend the next however long trying to make said incremental gains.

pk500 wrote:What I REALLY dig about this game, besides the items mentioned above, is that this game allows you to push to the maximum to try and squeeze more time out of a lap. When you make a mistake, it doesn't feel like the result of a shoddy physics or tire engine. It feels like you made a mistake. You must take it slow and steady, hit your marks perfectly and learn the limits of the tires' adhesion every lap.

Never a truer word. The car reacts to bad driving in ways that allow for unlimited catching practice; a quick flick of opposite lock is enough to get back in line most of the time, extreme cases need sustained lock and some playing on the pedals, and really extreme cases need you to wait for the spin to end and carry on from there. In those really extreme cases, the game is not cheating me. I'm turning in too aggressively, braking too late, gassing it too early or catching a kerb badly, and when the car breaks away I know it's coming, not because I'm trained to know which canned spin physics are being thrown at me, but because I know which mistake I've made and am ready to tackle the resulting loss of control. Not only does the process of losing and catching a car feel much more convincing than in any other sim, it's consistent and it makes you feel like some kind of driving God, which is always nice.

He wasn't lying, fellas. It's that good.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:29 pm

Those with a penchant for screaming V12 Ferrari engines, Nigel Mansell and the crushing mediocrity of mods from folk who talk the talk but can barely crawl might want to look here:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 1991%20MMG

Bill Bailey once said that, "As an Englishman, I crave disappointment." I can think of no other reason for my downloading this, but hey, it might be good, right? I mean...right? The rFactor Central comments forum for this release, incidentally, is a theatre of self-importance and delusion.

At the other end of the modding spectrum, iDT and something that really might be worth having, even if we'll probably be up to v1.4 by the end of next week:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... d%20Series

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:44 pm

Random delusions:

No way I'm touching that MMG 1991 mod. First, the initial impressions are sh*t from rFactor Central veterans whom I trust. Second, it appears MMG has ripped off significant portions of the mod without permission or credit -- what a shock. Third, it's MMG, which can overpromise and underdeliver unlike any other modding group on Earth.

I'm eager to give the Champ Car 2007 mod a go. Good point about the endless updates from iDT, Adam, but they do quality work in general.

Read your LFS impressions, Adam, and I'm glad you're enjoying the driving model. It's true that the offline racing AI is one of the few that can make rFactor's offline AI good. But once you learn the AI's odd tendencies, you can drive around it.

But LFS is really geared for online racing and online or offline hot-lapping. The driving model is just so damn good that I can overlook the sin of crummy offline AI.

Let's race online with LFS soon, boys!

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:54 pm

I cannot make head or tail of the permissions issues regarding the 1991 mod, and having read the comments I'm more than ready to be utterly underwhelmed. The only reason I'm about to install it is that it's 1991, the year I saw my first Grand Prix (nowt like starting young, is there?), and I love the cars of that era. iDT's previous Champ Car and CART works are excellent, as is their Formula BMW mod, agreed.

I'm this close to pulling the trigger on an LFS licence, and keen to give it a spin online too.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:59 pm

MMG 1991, then.

Graphically it's fine - the models are decent enough, wherever they came from, though jaggies around the mirrors and the generally non-functioning wheel display and dashboard could do with fixing. The sounds are mixed, verging from the good (Ferrari, Renault when it's not busy distorting) to the ISI BMW noises, all the way through to the hurt-those-responsible Honda V10 in the back of the Tyrrell, which sounds for all the world like a V6 turbo.

On track the cars are easy enough to drive in most corners, set up with a good amount of low and medium-speed understeer by default. You can lose the rear under power, sometimes in a higher gear than you'd expect, and you can very definitely lose the rear every single time there's elevation change. It feels like the rear bottoms out, but it's probably not that because you'll have the exact same accident in the middle of high speed corners like Villeneuve on the pre-1995 Imola layout and the fast right-hand sweeper in Montreal's first sector. I'm inclined to suggest that it's an issue with my driving, that there's a point at which the tyres just give up grip and I'm away off the road backwards, but since the FFB gives absolutely no sense of that happening (this isn't just LFS spoiling me - with all of these crashes my first warning sign is visual and involves the car spearing into a fence) I'm torn between that and a setup issue.

The damage model seems to be carried over from MMG 2007, which is to say that if you tag a barrier with the front of the car, say when attacking the pre-1997 Swimming Pool at Monaco, your rear wing will fall off too, and in harder accidents anything detachable will detach regardless of whether or not it hit anything at all.

That's about it. No AI impressions because I didn't race against them. The 1991 demo is OK, but not really anything more than that. It's worth trying if you're a particular fan of the year, and has the potential to be more than just OK with work, but I don't get the impression the folk responsible are capable of that work.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:46 pm

My last word on the mediocre 1991 demo, I swear. That damage model? This is a picture of me leaving the Brianza (Monza) pits. I felt no impact through the wheel, there was no sign of the car changing course after clipping the garage exit, and yet:

Since I didn't know the rear wing was off, I had the mother and father of them all exiting the pitlane and tore all the corners off the car. I did also knock the rear wheel off a Ferrari in a Monaco incident in which the frontwheel was the one to gently graze the barrier. It's a laugh, at least.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:31 pm

Go to the 7:53 mark of this video for a rundown of the amazing features at the LFS stat tracking and telemetry Web site, lfsworld.net:

http://blip.tv/file/1500150

P.S.: Oh, and fast-forward or reverse from that segment to admire Jessica Lopez's lovely cans ...

Take care,
PK

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:16 am

pk500 wrote:P.S.: Oh, and fast-forward or reverse from that segment to admire Jessica Lopez's lovely cans ...

Amen to that! She's almost enough to counter Shaun Cole.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:09 am

I received a complimentary iRacing subscription this week through a connection, and I gave it a spin tonight for about an hour.

Very early, superficial impressions are that I would have been a hell of a lot more impressed by this game if I'd never played Live For Speed. This game clearly has a far superior physics model to that of rFactor and GTR 2. But LFS stacks up VERY favorably to iRacing, especially the tire model and feeling of weight in the car.

The laser-scanned tracks are damn nice in iRacing. You really feel the bumps and imperfections. But the driving and physics model are nowhere near the quantum leap I expected, especially after driving LFS. I think those who claim this physics model is the holy grail have jumped straight from GTR 2 or rFactor, never driving LFS.

It's way too early for me to formulate any detailed impressions without more seat time. But feel free to shoot me any questions.

Oh, and I HATE the racing league structure, in which you can only race certain cars at times decided by iRacing. No DSP Poker Nights, either, as you must join sessions set by iRacing. I knew that, but it's still just as LAME now as it was when this information first leaked.

It's VERY early, but there's no way right now -- especially with the paltry amount of cars and tracks available -- that this game is worth $159 per year, plus an extra $15-25 for each new car or track. The only car in which I really had any pure fun was the Formula Mazda. If anything, the oval physics and sense of weight feel like a regression from NR 2003, other than the quick-snap spins that plagued NR 2003 are gone.

More impressions to come.

Take care,
PK

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:15 am

DChaps wrote:Happy 10 year Anniversary Grand Prix Legends!!!!

As best as I can tell, today Oct. 9, 2008, marks the 10 year anniversary date for the greatest racing sim of all time, Grand Prix Legends.

Both IGN and Gamerankings say it was released Sept. 27, 2008. The Grand Prix Legends Wiki does not seem to have a definitive date. I went looking for my actual receipt as it was in my GPL box for many years, but I could not find it. However, it seems to be Oct. 9, 2008 as it is reported in the old 1998 Archives of EagleWoman Alison Hine's GPL site.

10/9/98 - I have received word from readers that GPL has been released in Australia and Germany. I believe it is available throughout much of Europe at this time. Inside information indicates presales of 75,000 copies in the US, and 225,000 copies in Europe!
This whole page (link below) is a pretty cool journal of the early days of GPL. Read from the bottom up.

http://eaglewoman.rscsites.org/gpl/news-archive-98.htm

I recently got Grand Prix Legends back up and running and discovered a couple new updates that I did not realize had been released.

1) Rouen Historical 2.0 - very nice update to Rouen

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=322698

2) Zandvoort Multi Season Graphics Update (1965-1969)

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=320952

To celebrate GPL's 10 year anniversary, my goal is to try one last time to get to a negative rank on the 11 original GPL tracks before the end of the year. GPL is the only game that I have played every year for the last 10 years, and yet I still suck at it and currently sit at a pretty pathetic +144.556. Actually, I would be happy if I could just get under +50. I have a long way to go at The Ring, Spa, and Rouen. Everywhere else I am under 5 sec. and have one barely negative rank at Monza.

I have re-installed GPL on my current CPU and luckily I don't need a graphics card for it. I also solved my wheel issue.

Wow....I have missed GPL big time.

It was my first love in sim racing, and I don't think I can race anything else any more. I keep getting drawn back to it.

The 66 Mod is off the charts fun. Testing each car and its differences Watkins Glen is a kick.

Don, I have uploaded more hot laps to GPL Rank. I'll be sure to check out yours and I'll do my best to catch up to you.

WPatrick · Post by **WPatrick** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:39 pm

pk500 wrote:
Oh, and I HATE the racing league structure, in which you can only race certain cars at times decided by iRacing. No DSP Poker Nights, either, as you must join sessions set by iRacing. I knew that, but it's still just as LAME now as it was when this information first leaked.

It's VERY early, but there's no way right now -- especially with the paltry amount of cars and tracks available -- that this game is worth $159 per year, plus an extra $15-25 for each new car or track. The only car in which I really had any pure fun was the Formula Mazda. If anything, the oval physics and sense of weight feel like a regression from NR 2003, other than the quick-snap spins that plagued NR 2003 are gone.

More impressions to come.

Take care,
PK

I Could not agree more. I have done 8 weeks worth of iRacing and decided to let my subscription expire. I could deal with the fixed time structure even though I did not like it, but the cost is ridiculous. I moved up one level to the D Class license and it was going to cost me $69.00 just to run a season in Late Models. That cost is on top of the $20.00 monthly fee I was already paying.

I would renew my subscription if they let me use it all for $25.00 a month, but this pay for cars and tracks as you rank up + monthly fee is a joke.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:09 pm

Did a bit more testing this afternoon with iRacing, and my impressions remain lukewarm.

The laser-scanned tracks are a sheer delight. It's really nice to feel every bump, dip and imperfection and the effect they have on your driving.

But most of the cars, even the light, nimble cars like Legends and the Silver Crown, just feel sort of ... dead. There's just very little feel of weight transfer to the cars, a sensation that's so nice in LFS.

The physics of iRacing are very consistent and predictable unlike rFactor, but I think the tire model in LFS beats iRacing, hands down. And I think iRacing's very good physics model is dragged down by the mediocre tire model.

The wheel gets light just before understeer, but that's the only clue you receive. You don't feel the tire flex before the transition to understeer that is so damn delightful in LFS.

I'll keep testing iRacing, but every time I'm running with anything but the Star Mazda or Legends car, I want to return to LFS almost immediately and try to shave time from my FBMW laps at Blackwood.

More impressions to come. I'd like to race, but I can only do it when iRacing says so, which is F*CKING LAME!

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:50 pm

I can't bring myself to muster anything beyond a passing iRacing interest. I've tried, but I still haven't seen anything that's made me think I must have a go at it. The impressions of those here who've played it make me feel quite comfortable with that.

More MMG rFactor for I, this time 2007 2.0. No new .ini files to install this time around, so that's progress. v2.0 boasts 'New Different Physics Per Team', and while the notion of different cars driving differently is hardly a novel one, it's more than MMG 2007 v1.0 had, as proven beyond all reasonable doubt by one man from Hartlepool sat in his dining room pretending to be scientific:

A Hartlepudlian in his dining room, some months ago wrote:In the Spyker I ran a 1:15.897. In the Ferrari, 1:15.958. The cars felt the same, hit the same top speeds, had the same shift points, got nervous in the same places...the whole lot. I preferred the Spyker, because it didn't have as many graphics on the steering wheel to distract me...

Those tests were ran at Interlagos. To see how different MMG's New Different Physics Per Team were, the test was repeated just now. For those of a scientific bent, I should point out conditions in the dining room are somewhat colder than during my first test...

As the Ferrari should theoretically have been the quicker, the benchmark, I ran that first. 1:13.000. The car was generally compliant, went where I aimed it when I aimed it there, had astonishing stopping power and was pretty much glued to the track, except for on the downhill left two corners from home which, as it turns out, needs a little lift on the way in to avoid a spin. The Spyker was well-balanced with a trend towards very mild understeer, stopped equally as well as the Ferrari but didn't get into the corners quite as well (though it did let me stay flat through that second-to-last turn), and posted a 1:14.881.

In conclusion, it's hard to wholly recommend this mod because it follows the theme set by MMG's 2008 BMW Sauber of being very fast but very easy to drive in comparison to any open wheel mod you care to name regardless of category or power. There's still a thrill to be had from driving very quickly, very precisely and hooking together a lap but you never feel in that much danger of losing the car, mistakes being punished with a loss of line rather than control. Huge mistakes will lead to loss of control, though, and another visit from MMG's hideously overdone damage model. Oh, and the various cars definitely handle differently this time. Edit: Keep reading, kids...now I've had more than 10 minutes to test them, that's not really correct after all...

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:27 pm

GB_Simo wrote:Oh, and the various cars definitely handle differently this time.

Ahem.

I finished downloading the mod at 8:25-ish, made that post at 8:50 and got in a taxi at 9:00, so I really didn't have time to do more than that quick lap time test; out lap, flyer, change car, out lap, flyer, end. Having ran more at the same track tonight, I'm not so sure.

There's something different about the cars, yes, but whether they handle differently is up for debate again. The Spyker's mild understeer of yesterday isn't there today, now that I'm trying a bit harder. The Honda handles perfectly well too, and given that the RA107 was a dog that ain't right.

More testing, then. Top speed down the back straight and apex speed through turn four, Subida do Lago. The Ferrari hits 187 with ease down the back straight, and apex speed was recorded at 100 mph. The Honda wheezed to 183, tickling 184 briefly, and apexed at 100 mph. Lap times still differ - low 1:13 in the Honda, high 1:11 in the Fezza - but the feel of the cars doesn't. In summary, then, different physics = different engines.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:51 pm

I won't bother a second with any MMG mod for one reason, besides the gross immaturity and unprofessionalism of the mod team: MMG mods are not RealFeel-compatible.

MMG never has made any effort to integrate RealFeel into its mods, probably thinking its brilliant physics don't need the effects of realistic suspension feedback.

Typical.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:37 pm

In very brief defence of the lying, treacherous little gits, this 2007 mod is one of the only open-wheel mods I've played using default Leo's where I'd back myself to catch the car every time it got out of shape, comparable to the ICS mod in that regard. Defence over with, I'd back myself to catch any and all of the cars in the 2007 mod, because they all corner the same bloody way.

For a mod whose total development time must now be coming on for two years from a team who regard themselves as the big I Am of rFactor modding, it's quite remarkable that there's no RealFeel support. It wouldn't surprise me at all, given their apparent inability to distinguish a Honda from a Ferrari in any way not involving straight-line speed, if lack of RealFeel masks some fudge or other in the suspension modelling.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:43 pm

Adam:

I'm sure that if you ran this mod through the carFactory tool, you'd find something goofy like reversed suspension arms or suspension arms pointing toward the heavens instead of the pickup points on the tub.

Nothing would shock me.

But it just amazes me that carFactory ( http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... carFactory ) has existed for a while to build accurate suspensions that are compatible with RealFeel and that Niels has provided beta versions of the soon-to-be-released Trex physics and tire tool ( http://geocities.com/n_heusink/rfactorphysics/index.htm ) ( http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthr ... ?p=3918068 ) to modders who request it, and there still are mod teams that use neither.

Kangaloosh, the creator of carFactory, is the guy who co-developed RealFeel with TechAde. Niels, the creator of Trex, has built physics and suspensions for some of the most realistic mods in rFactor, such as the Historic GT & Touring and the Corvette C6. These guys seriously know what they're doing.

Yet ego still blinds so many mod teams from using these tools. Silly.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:29 am

Down to 1:16.64 tonight in the FBMW in a race at Blackwood GP in LFS with some really clean, hard racers from Europe -- eight-tenths quicker than my previous best!

Damn, I'm digging LFS in a BIG way. I-what?

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:29 am

I drove a bit more iRacing last night. I'm really trying to muster enthusiasm for the greatest thing in sim racing since the first Sidewinder steering wheel, I really am.

But it's damn hard when a GAME is this overrated. And the word game is emphasized because that's all this is -- it's not the revolutionary simulator that Kaemmer and Co. promised.

iRacing is different and unique because of its laser-scanned tracks and its ladder structure that forces you to race only at certain times against certain people and earn licenses to gain more powerful cars. Oh, and it's unique because of its obscenely high cost, too. Thank God I got a comp subscription, because there's no way in hell this game is worth what iRacing is charging.

Not much has changed from my first impressions of the game. The laser-scanned tracks are a sheer delight. It's so cool to feel every bump and ripple in tracks. And the physics model is solid and predictable. But previous games match or exceed iRacing in a two key departments:

Tire model: Live For Speed is superior, with its flexing sidewalls and cues of impending understeer. The cars also slide seemingly more realistically than iRacing.

Suspension: Properly tuned RealFeel, with an rFactor mod suspension built with carFactory, still feels superior to anything else I've driven.

But the biggest flaw to iRacing, besides the excessive cost, is the restrictive racing setup. There is no offline racing, no AI, and you must race only at times iRacing designates. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you miss the start of a race, you need to wait another 30 minutes to race again?

Plus there are no private rooms, no Friends lists (which LFS has), etc.

I admire Kaemmer and Co. for trying to take the real-world environment of the racing ladder and bringing it to the virtual world. But it simply doesn't work, for a two reasons.

One, the existing model of "race when you want with whomever you want" is so entrenched in online sim racing that I can't see the iRacing model ever becoming any kind of standard. The freewheeling nature of Xbox Live console play, which has become the gaming standard, will further limit gamers' tolerance for restrictive online models like iRacing.

Two, the physics and tire models just aren't anywhere as good as advertised and pimped by iRacing zealots. There's just not enough weight in the wheel or friction in the tires for me to consider this anywhere near realistic.

I've only driven a stock car on an oval; I've never done asphalt road racing. But I've done my share of sliding on wet or snowy roads, especially snow, in lightweight passenger cars, and iRacing doesn't feel like that. Live For Speed does.

The tracks, for better, and racing ladder system, for worse, are revolutionary in iRacing. But nothing else is. The driving, physics and tire models are not the quantum leaps hyped by developers and disciples.

My iRacing subscription is valid for a while, so I'll give it another crack of the whip sometime soon. But I'm underwhelmed. Every time I was driving in iRacing, I was thinking of racing either Live For Speed or the Historic GT & Touring mod in rFactor.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:06 pm

pk500 wrote:Down to 1:16.64 tonight in the FBMW in a race at Blackwood GP in LFS with some really clean, hard racers from Europe -- eight-tenths quicker than my previous best!

I thought I could hear a gauntlet being thrown. Hell of a lap, my dear fellow.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:11 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Down to 1:16.64 tonight in the FBMW in a race at Blackwood GP in LFS with some really clean, hard racers from Europe -- eight-tenths quicker than my previous best!
I thought I could hear a gauntlet being thrown. Hell of a lap, my dear fellow.

Thanks. I'm really getting a better feel for the balance between wringing the neck of the FBMW and being smooth and carrying speed. It also helped that I was in a race. I'm always quicker when chasing or being chased than in a hot lap session.

Now, I fully expect a post of a low 1:15 or high 1:14 from you by tomorrow morning.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:59 pm

pk500 wrote:Now, I fully expect a post of a low 1:15 or high 1:14 from you by tomorrow morning.

Ha, I wish. I:16.72 running by myself, 1:16.42 in a fierce race with the AI. People turning anything too much quicker than that with the default setup must be terrifyingly good.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:05 pm

Full disclosure: I'm not running the default setup, mate. So you probably would be in the 1:14's with the setup I'm using.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:32 pm

I'll take your word for that, my man. Either way, 1:16.anything takes some doing; if I leave any fat on the outside of the corners I'm back into a 1:17, so you're definitely pedalling that thing alright.

Did I hear you say the demo version was raceable online too? I was going to buy the full licence tonight but then I saw the new Midnight Club for £17.99 and, well, I'm weak...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:40 pm

Demo is raceable, yes. You can run the slowest hatchback and the Mazda RX-7 clone -- forgot the nomenclature -- and the FBMW at Blackwood.

Those all remain VERY popular online, so you're not shortchanging yourself short-term if you stick with the demo. But some of the non-demo tracks and cars are flipping amazing fun.

Let's race the FBeemers at Blackwood soon!

Take care,
PK