Wow, the NBA sucks.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:17 pm

pk500 wrote:
reeche wrote:I've read enough posts that mix attacks on "bling-bling" culture if you will somehow bizzarely contorted into actual critcisms of the sport. I contrast that with some of the statements I've read about hockey. Not everyone does it. Some do however. For me it's code. I didn't trot out the word "racist" however. You did. Their is a distinction. There is a scale. And nothing is solidly black and white on that scale.
I could give three sh*ts about the "bling-bling" culture -- whatever the hell that is. I don't like the NBA because of what I perceive to be an overabundance of one-on-one play and not enough team play.

There are thugs in every sport. Everyone knows that. But not once have I read this year an NHL or college hoop player refusing to come off the bench during a game or refusing to suit up because he wasn't starting.

So, if being a "me-first" person is part of the so-called "bling-bling" culture, then yeah, you bet your ass I have a problem with it.

Nice parsing of words on the "race" issue. Everyone knew what the hell you were talking about when you brought up the "social critique" issue. Regular readers of this board may have been born at night, but they weren't born last night. Nice try.

If "social critique" isn't an oblique synonym for "racism" in the context of this thread, then please explain to me how your "code" defines it.

Take care,
PK

I also haven't heard of a pro basketball player going up behind up another player and breaking his neck so where does that little game get us. I only bring up the negatives of others sports to show they exist. EVERY sport has weird little quirks and negatives about it. I don't think I view the word "racist" in the same way that you do most likely so I prefer not to use as it may have a different connotation to you or society. I belive everybody is racist to some degree or displays racist tendancies and that includes me. It's just goes in degree's. A little bit of racism is better than a whole lotta racism. I personally don't think social critque belongs at all in sports. I could careless what kind of people these are and whether they are good citizens so I'm not very likely to make a statement about a culture and then directly lead into criticism of the sport. Once again some people do though. I'm not trying to make anybody like basketball. You can hate it all you want. I simply don't like it when some people criticize certain things and then fail to realize the very things they like are subject to the same criticism. The race thing is a minor point to me but I was remarking that in my opinion it does exist like in does in most things. I'm perfectly fine sticking to other issues that don't include it, however, as that tends to be a sore point for people.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:29 pm

>>>I could careless what kind of people these are and whether they are good citizens so I'm not very likely to make a statement about a culture and then directly lead into criticism of the sport. Once again some people do though.<<<

Please tell me in any of my posts about my dislike of the NBA where I mentioned bling or thug life, other than my flippant "bling-bling" remarks to you. You won't. I made criticisms of Iverson and Carmelo, as they both committed transgressions against their teams by refusing to play. That's not a cultural issue.

>>>I'm not trying to make anybody like basketball. You can hate it all you want. I simply don't like it when some people criticize certain things and then fail to realize the very things they like are subject to the same criticism.<<<

I do like basketball -- college basketball. I've said all along that I dislike the NBA because it doesn't entertain me, just like I don't follow golf, tennis or baseball because they don't entertain me. The NHL, NFL, racing, college basketball and soccer do.

So yes, all sports can be subject to common criticism. But if one entertains me and the other doesn't, equal treatment for the sport I like is irrelevant. This isn't a trial where fairness is essential.

The NBA bores me; other sports do not.

The NBA could be filled with saints and the NHL and soccer could be filled with sinners, and I'd rather watch hockey and soccer.

Why? It's not a race issue that requires a long-winded definition of racism from me. I only watch those sports because they're more entertaining.

Pretty simple, if you ask me.

Take care,
PK

Post by **Jared** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:30 pm

pk500 wrote:>>>Just seems a bit of a double standard to me and always has. Particularily when people infuse what I believe to be social critique in with their actual critique of the sport of basketball.<<<

Great. You infer that all of us who dislike the NBA are racists and then slip back into lurker mode.

Ummm...I didn't infer that at all. He didn't say that everyone that dislikes the NBA on DSP are racist. He says that some people infuse "social critique" with critique of the sport.

You're wrong on two points. First, nothing in his statement said that EVERYONE is mixing social critique with actual critique. Secondly, he never stated (or implied) that these people that critique some of the "bling-bling" parts of the NBA are racist. People can be unhappy with parts of a culture that promote what they consider to be overly materialistic and/or individualistic culture and NOT be racist. There are plenty of black people that really hate certain aspects of "hip-hop culture", but are in no way racist.

(And I've been avoiding this post, but mainly because I'm pretty ambivalent to the NBA. I really appreciate the athleticism and skill, but games don't have nearly the atmosphere as the college game. No need to hate on it, but I'm not gonna praise it either.)

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:38 pm

Jared:

Then why did he even mention race in the follow-up post? Why didn't he say that I was flat-out wrong about inferring racism?

Instead, we got more syllable parsing about what a definition of racism is and that everyone is racist to some point. Well, I don't think I am.

I'll stand by my inference that Reeche sees me as a white suburbanite -- which I am -- so one of the reasons I rip the NBA is because I don't understand urban culture and am strictly relying on racial stereotypes as to why I don't "get" the NBA. That's not the case -- I have stated countless times that I don't like the NBA because it doesn't entertain me.

Enough time wasting on what's become a trivial thread.

Out,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:42 pm

Whoa, hold the f***in phone. Why does a simple statement such as "Wow, the NBA sucks" have to turn into an argument about thugs with heavy racial overtones? I don't know what race has to do with any of this thread. It's not the 'bling-bling' (your words not mine) that turns me off about basketball, it's how different the actual game is from even 5 years ago. I'd like to see consistency in officiating. I'd like to see travelling called (and by the way 3 steps were being taken at will in the recent NCAA tournament and that really pissed me off, damn near ruined the whole thing for me), I'd like to see Shaq get called for charging and have him earn his points like he's supposed to and not by bullying his way to the hoop. I'm all for physical play, but I'm for fair physical play.

Let's cut the racism s*** out and talk about the sport. Not hockey, not football, not soccer, not baseball. Basketball. If you want I'll start a f***in thread for each of the sports so you can list pros and cons of them, but this thread is for basketball. It's really f***in childish to deflect criticism towards one sport to another one. It's like the guy at the office who says "But, sir, Johnson was late 3 times last week." when questioned about a report being late. I think we're well past that at our ages.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:48 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:Let's cut the racism s*** out and talk about the sport. Not hockey, not football, not soccer, not baseball. Basketball. If you want I'll start a f***ing thread for each of the sports so you can list pros and cons of them, but this thread is for basketball. It's really f***ing childish to deflect criticism towards one sport to another one. It's like the guy at the office who says "But, sir, Johnson was late 3 times last week." when questioned about a report being late. I think we're well past that at our ages.

Please do start a new thread on each sport, but please ommit the word "sucks" from the title...I find that pretty f***ing childish

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:49 pm

The NBA doesn't suck...my Suns suck. Gimme Okefor please.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:52 pm

>>>If the NHL really cancels 2004-5, they'll lose a lot of ground.<<<

Z:

You're right. But with U.S. regular season and playoff TV ratings hovering around 1.0 or less, there ain't much ground to lose!

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:10 pm

One thing about team play in the NBA.

One of the best stories in the last year and a half are the Memphis Grizzlies, which had been a doormat franchise since its inception.

They had a lot of high draftees who underachieved, refused to play for them (Steve Francis) or were traded away (Bibby, Abdur-Rahim).

In comes 70-something Hubie Brown and they are on a tear, threatening to usurp one of the traditional powers in the Western Conference for one of the top 4 seeds in the playoffs.

He's gotten these spoiled individual players, including Bonzi Wells and "white chocolate" Jason Williams to buy into the team concept.

So much for today's me-first athlete not relating to team ethos, particularly from a coach old enough to be their grandfather or great-grandfather. Brown hadn't coached in about 20 years.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:18 pm

Z:

A bit of history: I was a RABID NASCAR fan from 1989 until 1993. Watched nearly every race, as I LOVED Davey Allison. I revered Allison as much as I had any athlete ever.

Then Allison was killed in a helicopter crash, and my enjoyment of NASCAR also died. Anyone who follows NASCAR knows that having a favorite driver is almost as essential as to having a favorite team in team sports.

Plus I also started getting more into F1 at that time than I already was. Then I discovered the WRC in the late 90s while still watching F1 and the IRL.

At the same time, I still hadn't found a NASCAR driver who gave me the same magic feeling as Allison, and I didn't like how the hard tires and aero changes were making NASCAR more boring.

It all changed for me this year. The emergence of Kahne and the return of racing decided by drivers, instead of fuel mileage and aero duels spawned by ultra-hard tires, has steered me back toward NASCAR.

This year I watched the Daytona 500 because I watch it every year and because I wanted to see how the new tires and aero rules affected the racing. Well, that was the most entertaining Daytona 500 I'd seen in years, as the two best drivers and cars on the day duked it out over the last 30 laps. There was none of the aero lottery crap.

I was entertained, so I said, "Hell, I'll watch Rockingham. If I'm entertained, I'll watch Vegas, and so on."

So far, something has entertained me every race. The cars seem tougher to drive this year because of the aero changes and the softer tires, so the racing has been better. In fact, I've hardly heard the term "aero push" used at all in post-race interviews this year.

I sort of followed Kahne in USAC and thought he was a fine driver. I lost touch with him last year in Busch, but I really, really like the kid this year. I love how he takes all sorts of different lines in an attempt to win. Plus he seems like a nice kid.

Basically, I think I've found the NASCAR driver I've been searching for since Davey Allison died in July 1993. It took 11 years, but so far I'm really enjoying the Nextel Cup Series this year.

I'm just as surprised as anyone. And no, nothing is shaved into my back hair. Hell, I don't even have back hair.

But I doubt you'll see a 9 sticker on my car, either. Too many people still associate the 9 with Bill Elliott, and Elliott is one of my least-favorite NASCAR drivers of all time. Again, odd how my new favorite replaced one of the guys I didn't care for one bit.

Take care,
PK

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:40 pm

sf_z wrote:Good point WCO. Memphis has done this using an 10-11 man rotation, considerably more than the rest of the league. Only one Grizzly averages more than 30 minutes per game.

I don't know if this will work in the playoffs where off days usually allow teams to shorten their benches, but Hubie and Jerry West have put together one of the best stories of the regular season.

...and conversely the Sixers have fallen apart after loading their roster with me-first players such as Glenn Robinson, Iverson, and Coleman. They were much better off with a roster full of team-first players such as George Lynch, Tyrone Hill and Mutombo. Even though Iverson took a ton of shots during the year the Sixers went to the finals the team would work relentlessly setting screens and running plays to get him open. Even Iverson got into the teamwork act by dishing out plenty of assists during the Eastern Conferenc playffs in 2001, including a 15 assist game 7 vs. Toronto. Now the players just stand around and they are a lottery team.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:17 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
ScoopBrady wrote:Let's cut the racism s*** out and talk about the sport. Not hockey, not football, not soccer, not baseball. Basketball. If you want I'll start a f***ing thread for each of the sports so you can list pros and cons of them, but this thread is for basketball. It's really f***ing childish to deflect criticism towards one sport to another one. It's like the guy at the office who says "But, sir, Johnson was late 3 times last week." when questioned about a report being late. I think we're well past that at our ages.
Please do start a new thread on each sport, but please ommit the word "sucks" from the title...I find that pretty f***ing childish

Well Leebo what word do you propose I use to voice my displeasure with the NBA? I really don't find the word "sucks" to be very childish. I quite often hear adults say "This sucks" or "That sucks". What I don't hear adults do very often is deflect negative attention towards something/someone else. I know I have no problems defining what I like about other sports.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:26 pm

ScoopBrady wrote: What I don't hear adults do very often is deflect negative attention towards something/someone else.

You don't follow politics?

Besides, I'm sorry if you construed it as deflecting negative attention. I really didn't intend it to be that way. I am just honestly curious how people rationalize their dislike of one sport and not another. I will follow your rules from now on and keep to a more formal structure.

I don't even think there is an argument here and I apologize for not taking the subject more seriously. Maybe I would have, but this has been beaten to death at SR and even here in a few threads and I don't think anyone has ever changed their mind. There is nothing anyone can say that will stop the NBA from boring PK to tears just like there is nothing that will compel me to watch an auto race on TV or watch a regular season NHL game. The basketball season ends for PK in April and the auto racing season never even starts for me. That doesn't mean anything "sucks" though.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:41 pm

sf_z wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:...and conversely the Sixers have fallen apart after loading their roster with me-first players such as Glenn Robinson, Iverson, and Coleman.
Well since this thread has drawn Reeche out of his lurk by this thread, all we need now is for Kazuya to jump in and defend Big Dog as the most underrated forward in the league

Careful numbnuts.... I'm like Candyman, invoke my name enough and you shall receive.

*returns to lurk mode*

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:03 pm

Leebo,
I don't mean to come across as setting rules for posting in this thread. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I stated before why I started this thread and can understand why NBA fans would be sore about someone proclaiming that the NBA sucks. Maybe a more appropriate title for my post would have been "Wow, I think the NBA sucks." Therefore setting it straight that the sucks part is my opinion and not fact. That's all I meant by saying that the NBA sucks.

It would make for a fascinating thread to read why some people accept some things in some sports but not in others. I don't think I'm going to start that thread though

.

I'm also sorry if this topic has been rehashed from the SR days but I never really participated in any of those threads so I didn't really realize the topic had been played out.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:14 pm

Kazuya wrote:
sf_z wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:...and conversely the Sixers have fallen apart after loading their roster with me-first players such as Glenn Robinson, Iverson, and Coleman.
Well since this thread has drawn Reeche out of his lurk by this thread, all we need now is for Kazuya to jump in and defend Big Dog as the most underrated forward in the league
Careful numbnuts.... I'm like Candyman, invoke my name enough and you shall receive.

*returns to lurk mode*

Jimmy Hoffa is alive! Amelia Earhart is found in Fiji! Elvis is spotted at a 7-Eleven in Utah! Kaz emerges!

Take care,
PK

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:14 pm

Scoop,

No problem.

I much prefer the NFL and even MLB to the NBA, but I still enjoy pro basketball. I know it has problems, but I am willing to accept them for now. I watch at least part of most Sixers games and most of the weekend playoff games and I just don't see the problems to the same degree that some people see. Can I see where the NBA might be boring to some? Absolutely.

I like the NBA because I like basketball and I like watching the best players in the world play it. I truly feel like the NBA is the best basketball in the world. Maybe that doesn't say much for the current state of the game. I'm not sure, but I don't buy the argument that the college game is that much different on the court. The good teams in the NBA work very well as a team and the bad teams don't just like in the NCAA. I watched Pitt a lot this year and they relied heavily on Carl Krauser dribble moves. I watched the teams that played Pitt and the teams that gave them the most trouble relied on the inside-outside game and dribble/drive moves that are staples of the NBA. Oklahoma state killed them with Lucas and Allen playmaking. Syracuse gave them trouble when they focused on the matchup problems that Warrick gave then one-on-one not when they passed the ball around and shot bricks from the perimeter. Uconn beat them when Ben Gordon took 22 shots. I watched a lot of basketball in the tourney and I saw a ton of hop steps, clear-outs, and one-on-one moves by guys like Nelson, Gordon, Jack, Lucas, etc. And I just don't see where college basketball is *that* much more strategic. There are a lot of teams that only play one form of zone defense or in the case of Pitt play almost exclusively man-to-man defense. It sounds like I am slammng on college ball, but I'm not. I just don't think it is that much different than the pros besides some teams *have* to rely on a more team-oriented approach to the game, but give them a star player or two and they start to look more and more like an NBA offense.