The Official Console Talk Thread

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:35 pm

Check out the link I sent in the next post (i'm assuming you answered before reading it).

It talks quite a bit about the idea that the digital stream is error free vs. component and makes a credible argument that neither is any more or less error free than the other.

Randy

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:42 pm

I still can't seem to wrap my head around how 1080p capability relates to the whole component vs. HDMI question. First component couldn't do 1080p, then it could... hell, it was on a Major Nelson podcast where I first heard about 1080p not being possible with component, but now apparently it was never a technical issue, just a standards issue, or something like that? Can anyone put it simply for me? I'm thinking about getting the Westinghouse 42" LCD that is 1080p capable, and if my launch 360 can really do true 1080p over component, then I won't be chuffed about this 360 2.0 business at all. 'Cause I haven't really seen anything either to demonstrate the superiority of HDMI as far as picture quality is concerned.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:46 pm

It seems that a lot of "can/can't" things ultimately boil down to "will/won't".

First the situation where DVD's aren't upscaled properly not because of the hardware being fundamentally incapable but because some standards body wrote a rule into a specification saying you can't do it. (Hence people buying XBox -> VGA -> Component bridges to get around the 'letter of the law'.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if similar nonsense is going on with HDMI, Component 1080p. The bottom line is -> the movie industry is terribly afraid if they give us great quality video, we'll pirate it, so they are doing all sorts of clumsy things (often circumventable) to stop us from getting top quality unless it's under their terms using their connections (HDMI with protection for example)

Randy

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:52 pm

As far as I know, Slumberland, the issue of 1080p over component is all about the display device and whether it can accept 1080p over component. The 360 can and does pass 1080p over component, but most 1080p displays only accept it over HDMI or VGA, and as I understand it, several of the early 1080p displays don't accept it at all over any input.

I've always beleived that there is a slight improvement in image quality from HDMI rather than component, but in most cases it's probably very little. If you have a long run of cable, I'd imagine HDMI would have fewer problems due to the long run, and HDMI is more useful for patching multiple devices through a receiver.

The big issue with HDMI, I believe, has to do with the sound output options of the HD-DVD drive, I think. I'm not sure about this, but I don't think the 'True-HD' (or whatever it's called), which is supposedly a lossless multitrack sound format, can be sent via toslink optical cable, but can only be sent through HDMI or individual analog outs, which most stand-alone HD-DVD players have. That is, the player does the decoding, and sends individual, discreet analog signals for each track to the receiver.

Thus, the 360's HD-DVD player can at this stage only send out a DD 5.1 audio signal. They say they are working on a patch to improve that 'True-HD' decoding/ recoding to DD 5.1, and to allow the 360 HD-DVD player to output a DTS signal over the optical cable, but only an HDMI connection would allow the 360 to send a lossless 'True-HD' audio signal. OF course, you'd need a fancy-schmancy receiver that could decode the 'True-HD' signal from HDMI in order to benefit, but this, and mostly the lack of an analog mutli-channel output option, is the real drawback of the 360's HD-DVD player compared to the more expensive stand-alones. Apparently, the 360's HD-DVD compares well in terms of image quality and other areas, but not with the sound (which is half the package, half the improvement of HD-DVD over DVD).

EDIT: Randy, it should be noted that the main advantage of HDMI over component is that it can pass video and audio signals over the one cable, something no other connection can do (as far as I know).

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:08 pm

Ah, sound! How often I forget about that. Anyway, thanks for the info... the Westy 42" apparently does accept 1080p over component.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:09 pm

Zeppo, if you look at the link I posted, the signal degradation would be worse in HDMI due to the 'digital cliff' phenomenon.

But I think the main piont was that it depends upon your setup and what kinds of chips you have doing all that conversion, scaling, etc.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:13 pm

Zephyr is a rumor. Obviously MS isn't going to confirm something like that months before they ship because it would kill current sales.

Consoles are always going to lack certain features. They're compromises designed to reach a certain price point at a targeted time, a snapshot of mass-market technology.

Plus the design goes on for years (at least 5 years in the case of the Cell).

MS wanted the one-year head-start and HD-DVD wasn't ready (neither was Blu-Ray) last year. If they launched in 2006, they might have had more RAM, maybe more cores in the CPU, more EDRAM and a newer GPU.

As for HDMI video quality, in theory, if you get a digital display you can get 1:1 pixel mapping. But it's only this year that displays which take 1080p signal inputs have come to market.

Specifically, HDMI 1.3 debuted late this year with the PS3, which allows deep color (if the displays support it) as well as new lossless formats. Now you have to wait for receivers with HDMI 1.3 inputs and then you should be able to watch Blu-Ray movies with TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Sony has done well to future-proof the PS3 in some ways and in other ways, not. HDMI is big, because if ICT and DOT were ever turned on, HDMI would be the only way to get HD output for movies. Greater storage for gaming as well as video is never a bad thing either.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:46 am

I have also seen a good number of PS3's in store (in north metro Atlanta and then today in a Target and a Gamestop in Athens - 4 of the 60 gig HD in each store). Not sure what it means. A year ago you could not find a 360 in stores at this point. Is Sony doing a better job getting them into the stores or are sales not that high? One thing is clear: Nintendo could be selling a ton of Wii's if they could just get them into the stores. In the 10 minutes I was in GameStop 2 people asked about Wii's and the manager had that world weary tone of voice like he is getting tired of being asked that same question (he said he had no idea when they were getting more Wii's).

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:08 am

kevinpars wrote:One thing is clear: Nintendo could be selling a ton of Wii's if they could just get them into the stores. In the 10 minutes I was in GameStop 2 people asked about Wii's and the manager had that world weary tone of voice like he is getting tired of being asked that same question (he said he had no idea when they were getting more Wii's).

If December sales are any indication (both US and Japan), Nintendo is delivering twice as many Wii's as Sony is delivering PS3s. Maybe that's changed over the past few weeks, but I think Nintendo is still delivering more units at launch than either MS or Sony did through the first month and a half.

But they definitely need to strike while the iron's hot and keep pumping them into stores. I can't believe how long the seemingly extreme demand has kept up.

Hell, has anyone seen DS Lites anywhere since Christmas?

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:20 am

Hell, has anyone seen DS Lites anywhere since Christmas?

I lucked into the only one (Onyx) at my local Toys R Us the other day, but did see about 8 onyx colored ones at Target yesterday after not seeing ANY since X-Mas. I was a little surprised because all of my Gamestop's are telling people they aren't going to see any unti the end of the month.

Nozzleman_216 · Post by **Nozzleman_216** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:07 pm

RallyMonkey wrote:
Hell, has anyone seen DS Lites anywhere since Christmas?
I lucked into the only one (Onyx) at my local Toys R Us the other day, but did see about 8 onyx colored ones at Target yesterday after not seeing ANY since X-Mas. I was a little surprised because all of my Gamestop's are telling people they aren't going to see any unti the end of the month.

A friend of mine has been looking for weeks just ordered one off of walmart.com

Now granted, this was a bundle but he still got one within a few days of ordering and he got to pick from like 10 or so games (got 2)

Not a bad deal I guess.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:37 pm

RallyMonkey wrote:
Hell, has anyone seen DS Lites anywhere since Christmas?
I lucked into the only one (Onyx) at my local Toys R Us the other day, but did see about 8 onyx colored ones at Target yesterday after not seeing ANY since X-Mas. I was a little surprised because all of my Gamestop's are telling people they aren't going to see any unti the end of the month.

I also lucked out and got one from Best Buy a couple of days after Christmas. In the DS Lite thread, some of us have posed our 'Friends Codes' for a few DS games if anyone would like to play online.

vader29 · Post by **vader29** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:32 pm

Saw this article on yahoo, official statement from Nintendo says the DS should be more readily available over the next couple of weeks.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/ongoingfeat ... 479&page=0

Still haven't seen a Wii yet.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:03 pm

Since I haven't been able to find a Wii, I've been tempted to get a 360, or even a *GASP* PS2 (for the SHow and SvR). Hearing about a possible upgrade for the 360 has effectively killed my immediate interest in getting one. I can wait for one that runs coller and has a larger HD (HDMI means nothing to me at this point).

I did see a PS3 at Wal Mart this morning. It just sat there, looking lonely in the case. Wiis are nowhere to be found. It seems like there are more Wiis being shipped uot than PS3s, but there is much more demand for the Wii. Once I see one I'm sure I'll pick it up. I'm still a bit worried about the lack of new Wii titles coming down the pipe. I really want to see announcemnts for NCAA football and MLB 2K7 on the Wii. Nintendo could lose a lot of momentum if they don't get new titles that make good use of the Wiimote.

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:44 am

matthewk wrote:Since I haven't been able to find a Wii, I've been tempted to get a 360, or even a *GASP* PS2 (for the SHow and SvR). Hearing about a possible upgrade for the 360 has effectively killed my immediate interest in getting one. I can wait for one that runs coller and has a larger HD (HDMI means nothing to me at this point).

I did see a PS3 at Wal Mart this morning. It just sat there, looking lonely in the case. Wiis are nowhere to be found. It seems like there are more Wiis being shipped uot than PS3s, but there is much more demand for the Wii. Once I see one I'm sure I'll pick it up. I'm still a bit worried about the lack of new Wii titles coming down the pipe. I really want to see announcemnts for NCAA football and MLB 2K7 on the Wii. Nintendo could lose a lot of momentum if they don't get new titles that make good use of the Wiimote.

Target has a buttload of PS3s...no WIIs..and like 4 games left in the case for it. This was at 2 targets....The price is just WAY too high.

if i see a WII...i'm grabbing one.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:45 pm

I'm piling on by saying it - but we were at Best Buy the other day - needing an extra Wii controller. Shelves were stripped of Wii accessories. But at Target we had better luck - they had just put out some new controllers 2 hrs earlier and we bought 2 sets (one for my sister in law), leaving them with just one.

Almost pointless to add they had no Wiis, but there were 4 20gb PS3's in their glass case looking rather lonely with no one even looking at them. But lots of people looking for Wii stuff.

After playing Rayman Raving Rabbids all weekend, I'm totally loving having the Wii...something about shooting rabbits with toilet plungers just never gets old (and the controls are just awesome)

GameFly sent me Tiger Woods for the Xbox 360 and I haven't even taken it out yet because I have a hard time picturing playing golf with anything BUT the Wii and swinging the remote like a club.

All of what we say here is anecdotal of course, but it's creating a decent sized picture of what we hear in the press. Sony seems to really be doing their best to lose this battle.

Randy

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:20 pm

At my baseball game today, the first baseman from the other team recognized me at EBgames(he works there). During a conversation while I was leading off the bag, I asked him about the PS3's and how many they have in stock. Last he checked, they had 7 and can't get rid of them.

We all know the answer abbout the Wii so I wont share it.

Needless to say, I truly believe the PS3 is in trouble. They have dug a huge hole, even with 800,000 sold so far. (if that is accurate....I think it's less).

The next 6 months will be bare for them. I can't see people going out of their way for the system with hardly anything coming out for it.

BTW, my wife and I just bowled 3 games of Wii bowling and she was begging to play more. Her last game was a record for her....248.

I bowled my record last week with a 258.

Great great game with awesome pin physics.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:26 pm

pigpen81 wrote:BTW, my wife and I just bowled 3 games of Wii bowling and she was begging to play more. Her last game was a record for her....248.

I'm very close to painting my c#$k to look like a Wiimote for this reason. That just might get it in my wive's hand more.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Sony just announced, on the eve of CES, that they've shipped a million PS3s in North America.

That's more than the number of X360s last year.

It's also more than the number of PS1 and PS2s as well.

At double the price. Against two "hot" competitors. With a lousy launch lineup.

But it would be premature, less than 2 months after it launched, to say the PS3 will outsell its predecessors.

Just as it would be premature to say PS3 is in trouble.

BigAl · Post by **BigAl** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:37 pm

wco81 wrote:Sony just announced, on the eve of CES, that they've shipped a million PS3s in North America.

Shipped doesn't mean sold. Lots of PS3's everywhere you look. They can ship them, but it doesn't mean people are going to buy them at $600.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:42 pm

BigAl wrote:
wco81 wrote:Sony just announced, on the eve of CES, that they've shipped a million PS3s in North America.
Shipped doesn't mean sold. Lots of PS3's everywhere you look. They can ship them, but it doesn't mean people are going to buy them at $600.

Well NPD numbers next week.

You're right, shipped doesn't mean sell-thru. Keep that in mind when MS announces 10 million shipped.

How many do you think are sitting in channel unsold? 50k? 100k? 200k? 500k?

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:07 am

Well judging the amount of 360's in each store i go in id say the number is pretty high.
And isnt the fact were seeing PS3 on store shelves now due to the amount shipped.
I hope PS3 is not in trouble.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:14 am

wco81 wrote:How many do you think are sitting in channel unsold? 50k? 100k? 200k? 500k?

There seems to be a TON of unsold 360s sitting around, either in a Target/Wal-Mart display case or on pallets in Best Buy and Costco.

The number of unsold PS3s is much smaller and uneven, maybe 5% of the 1mm shipped.

One business-related thing stood out to me the past couple months--both MS and Sony (for the PSP) are really padding the retailers' pockets with some serious marketing funds. MS probably spent between $30-60, as evidenced by all major chains offering a free game with system purchase (not bundled in-box) for much of December, and now Sony is probably offering $20 for every PSP (look at this week's Target and Circuit City ads).

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:29 am

Dave wrote:One business-related thing stood out to me the past couple months--both MS and Sony (for the PSP) are really padding the retailers' pockets with some serious marketing funds. MS probably spent between $30-60, as evidenced by all major chains offering a free game with system purchase (not bundled in-box) for much of December, and now Sony is probably offering $20 for every PSP (look at this week's Target and Circuit City ads).

Not to mention the MicroCenter and the Amazon deals. And some others.

MS really tried to move units. The question is whether after the Holidays, their sales volume falls way back again, to around 220k a month, below the sales rate of the PS2.

But it really shouldn't, because the X360 release calendar for 2007 is suppose to be strong. There may not be any Gears of War-level blockbuster until September but there should be good games.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:33 am

MS announced tonight that they've shipped 10.4 million X360s in 37 countries or something like that.

They also announced that their IPTV platform will run on the X360 later this year.

For info. on IPTV, see uverse.att.com.

There's talk that IPTV providers (so far AT&T seems to be the only one in the US) may lease X360 for a subscription contract of some kind.

No mention of a newer X360 with HDMI, bigger hard drive or integrated HD-DVD drive. No sales numbers for the HD-DVD add-on, other than the claim that they're selling out as fast as they can make them.

NPD numbers are due this Thursday.