Racing Sim Thread, Part II

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:50 am

Many thanks, Stu!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I tried a 50-50 mix of RealFeel and Leo's last night with the Meganes at Toban, and it felt HORRIBLE. I know people rave about that, and maybe I'll give it another go. But it sure didn't feel good to me.

My only quibble about RealFeel is that its effectiveness varies by mod. When it works, it's brilliant, such as with the Meganes. Other mods, such as the historic BMW's we ran last night, have only limited effect. But it works terrible with the default ISI F3 cars, which are damn near undriveable with it, regardless of tweaks.

But I like it so much when it works that I'm sticking with it. And tweaking it is very, very easy. As I said before, Leo's needs more regular tweaking than RealFeel to get it running properly for each mod.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:22 am

I'm more of a set it and forget it type of guy. I just popped in the stock Leo's and left it there. I like the feel of it overall and have never had any strange problems with it.

Does it make that huge of a difference to mess with all of these settings?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:14 am

Gurantsu wrote:Does it make that huge of a difference to mess with all of these settings?

I notice the difference, but I'm anal.

I gave Megane settings to Mix, and he noticed a difference, too. Not night and day, though.

Take care,
PK

stu · Post by **stu** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:42 am

pk500 wrote:Many thanks, Stu!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I tried a 50-50 mix of RealFeel and Leo's last night with the Meganes at Toban, and it felt HORRIBLE. I know people rave about that, and maybe I'll give it another go. But it sure didn't feel good to me.

My only quibble about RealFeel is that its effectiveness varies by mod. When it works, it's brilliant, such as with the Meganes. Other mods, such as the historic BMW's we ran last night, have only limited effect. But it works terrible with the default ISI F3 cars, which are damn near undriveable with it, regardless of tweaks.

But I like it so much when it works that I'm sticking with it. And tweaking it is very, very easy. As I said before, Leo's needs more regular tweaking than RealFeel to get it running properly for each mod.

Take care,
PK

Edit:-

Ignore all prevous posts!

I simply failed to put a negative value on MaxForceAtSteeringRack, as recomended in the ReadMe, when I originally set-up RealFeel!!

EE_LMP1 2008]
MaxForceAtSteeringRack=-4000.000000
SteeringDamper=11500.000000
FFBMixerRealFeelPercent=100.000000
SmoothingLevel=0

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:54 am

The one thing that amazes me about RealFeel is that it has been available for a year, and I can't find a list of mods that are designed to work with it anywhere on the Web. And Lord knows I've looked, using Google and search tools within various sim racing forums.

It would be great to find a list of mods that work well with it and a list of mods designed with Kangaloosh's CarFactory suspension maker, which virtually assures that the mod will work with RealFeel.

Trust me, boys, I wouldn't go to the trouble of setting up RealFeel -- even if the difficulty is vastly overrated -- if it didn't feel so damn good on certain mods and if it didn't make me faster. But it feels sublime, and I am faster.

Dropped my personal best at Toban Runoffs to 59.2 in a Megane last night with RealFeel, and I couldn't go any quicker than 1:00.4 with the same setup and Leo's after about 12 laps. That's all I need to know.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:32 pm

Check this out boys !

BMW M1 ProCar 1979-1980 1.00

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 01979-1980

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:13 pm

Rodster wrote:Check this out boys !

BMW M1 ProCar 1979-1980 1.00

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 01979-1980

Ah, this mod looks drool-worthy! Might take it for a spin tonight.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:29 pm

I've been messing with SBK '08. I gotta say it's the most accurate representation of a Superbike. The physics model is even more advanced than the stellar Superbike 2001.

This physics model accounts for weight inertia, weight shift (front to back), brake inertia. If your rider falls off the bike your rider will suffer injuries. The only downside is Milestone coded this very sloppily as their are framerate issues and the graphics are serviceable. The sim has 3 cockpit views and each one is great. You'll see your rider shift up and downshift as well as applying the front and rear brakes depending on the view.

I need to try out the AI in a bit to see how good they are.

stu · Post by **stu** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Anyone have RealFeel settings for SO76 and BMW M1 PROCAR.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:56 pm

Rodster wrote:I've been messing with SBK '08. I gotta say it's the most accurate representation of a Superbike. The physics model is even more advanced than the stellar Superbike 2001.

I didn't even realise this was due out now. I played SBK-07 a fair bit on PS2, but that too was beset by frame rate issues. I'm glad to hear you're finding the physics model to be pretty convincing, because that's what I was hoping for; they were halfway there last year but still on the arcade side.

Grant, this whole FFB business is a matter of using what you're comfortable with. You and I have the same stock Leo's approach to things, I like the overall feel too and I've never felt like the FFB is lacking any of the information I need to go quickly. In saying that, PK's RealFeel settings must either be telling him things he didn't know, or else communicating the same things as Leo's more effectively, so there's something in it for him, but it won't be there for everyone.

stu · Post by **stu** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:45 pm

Re. RealFeel, it's just clicked for me:-

Code: Select all

A clean lap at Adalaide with the V8's version 1.20 shows a motec reading as high as 7248. So, that is what the MaxForceAtSteeringRack SHOULD be set to. BTW, 3 different laps produced the exact same 7248 max force at the steering arm.
The steering damper should be 11500 as well as a smoothing level of zero! The only time these should be changed is if you have a "notchy" feel or oscillation or some other abnormality in your wheel. But MOST users (literally like 99% of users) should not have to change these settings.

Always use 11500 Steering Damper

Always use 0 Smooting Level

Finally, use the console when you use a new car/track combination, and set MaxForceAtSteeringRack to whatever max setting the console indicates.

I think that's it anyway!

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:28 pm

PK, are these Megane laps at Toban using the default setup? If they are, you're a second quicker with RealFeel than I can make Leo's go too. I feel, though, that the FFB with that mod and Leo's isn't all that good; when we raced the IndyCars at Silverstone I knew at all times when the back was coming around on me and could correct it, but with the Meganes I've crashed at the last turn of Toban and (repeatedly) the long downhill right-hander because I can't feel the car get loose, so I daren't accelerate hard.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:42 pm

GB_Simo wrote:Grant, this whole FFB business is a matter of using what you're comfortable with. You and I have the same stock Leo's approach to things, I like the overall feel too and I've never felt like the FFB is lacking any of the information I need to go quickly.

Absolutely. Agree 100 percent. Force feedback is totally subjective. There is no magic genie.

GB_Simo wrote:In saying that, PK's RealFeel settings must either be telling him things he didn't know, or else communicating the same things as Leo's more effectively, so there's something in it for him, but it won't be there for everyone.

Actually, Leo's and RealFeel communicate very different things. Leo's simulates pretty precise force feedback from tire grip, while RealFeel simulates force feedback from forces acting on the car's suspension.

There is no one true comprehensive, accurate force feedback option for rFactor. The default ISI FFB tries, but it includes so many canned effects that it's nowhere close to being realistic. It doesn't do tires nearly as well as Leo's and doesn't do suspension nearly as well as RealFeel, so it ends up doing nothing very well!

I prefer feeling the feedback from suspension because if the the mod is built correctly, you will get some slight feedback from the effects of tire grip on suspension forces. It's not nearly as precise as the tire feedback offered by Leo's, but I don't think Leo's offers much, if any, suspension feedback at all.

Take the final corner leading to the main straight at Silverstone, for example. With Leo's, I really can't feel that bump on the inside apex of the corner where that new patch of asphalt starts. With RealFeel, I can feel it sublimely.

Same with the ETCC cars at Oulton Park. I can actually feel the car become unweighted over the numerous bumps with RealFeel; I don't feel that with Leo's.

But I do get better tire feedback with both mods with Leo's.

So it comes down to what kind of feedback you prefer and what kind of feedback helps you drive faster. For me, that's suspension force feedback, so I stick with RealFeel.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:49 pm

GB_Simo wrote:PK, are these Megane laps at Toban using the default setup? If they are, you're a second quicker with RealFeel than I can make Leo's go too. I feel, though, that the FFB with that mod and Leo's isn't all that good; when we raced the IndyCars at Silverstone I knew at all times when the back was coming around on me and could correct it, but with the Meganes I've crashed at the last turn of Toban and (repeatedly) the long downhill right-hander because I can't feel the car get loose, so I daren't accelerate hard.

No, Adam, those are with a slightly modified setup that I got from rFactor Central.

My best at default is about 1-flat with RealFeel and about 1:01-mid with Leo's. I'm about 1 to 1.2 seconds quicker per lap with RealFeel than Leo's on what I think is a perfect lap with the Meganes at Toban.

I think you really feel the difference with RealFeel on bumpy tracks that were built properly, like Toban. I get better sensory experience and feel like I have better control with the car with the suspension forces feedback at places like Toban than I do with tire grip feedback.

By the time the tires are sliding at a bumpy joint like Toban, it's usually too late to save it, or you slide badly and lose a ton of time. If I start to feel the rear end become unweighted at Toban with RealFeel, I usually have more time to correct and hopefully save the car than I would with tire feedback through RealFeel.

Oulton Park is another track where RealFeel really shines, too.

Your mileage may vary, as always!

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:10 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
Rodster wrote:I've been messing with SBK '08. I gotta say it's the most accurate representation of a Superbike. The physics model is even more advanced than the stellar Superbike 2001.
I didn't even realise this was due out now. I played SBK-07 a fair bit on PS2, but that too was beset by frame rate issues. I'm glad to hear you're finding the physics model to be pretty convincing, because that's what I was hoping for; they were halfway there last year but still on the arcade side.

I remember EA Sports Superbike 2000 and Superbike 2001(PC) having framerate issues as well. Those games were developed by Milestone too.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:13 pm

PK, having given RealFeel a quick run using settings derived from Stu's last post, I do see why you like it but might well stick with Leo's, though I'd like to run your Megane settings for RealFeel first.

With my settings, I found that the feedback through the wheel was generally much stronger and the steering weight through the G25 heavier than Leo's; pleasingly so, nothing handicapping. As far as driving, RealFeel gave me more of a feeling of a car being absolutely planted through the quicker corners, so it's a bit easier to hold a line, and I'd guess it'd encourage people to commit more fully to a corner if they've been giving it some respect before. Under braking, though, I found Leo's tyre feedback told me more of what I wanted to know about what the car was doing. In the Meganes with RealFeel, I had a couple of silly spins in the first hairpin because I didn't realise I was sliding until I saw a spin start, and I don't have that issue with Leo's. Some fine tuning might help there, though. My laptimes with the two different types of FFB and default setups were near-identical at Toban in the Megane (1:00.003 RealFeel, 1:00.009 Leo's) and not much further apart in IndyCars at Silverstone, Leo's ahead.

In a Poker Night thread a couple of weeks ago, after I'd rear-ended you in the Atlantics when I wasn't ready for you lifting, I mentioned that I thought fast corners were where I made up most of my time on people and that if more of us attacked the faster turns with confidence, lap times would tumble. It feels to me like RealFeel really would help with that, because its feedback in the quick stuff really does give me the impression of a car being thoroughly planted to the road; do you feel it helps there or is it of benefit to you across the whole lap?

Edit: PK, thanks for the settings. Yours and mine weren't so far removed from each other, so my impressions aren't really changed. I'm going to use Leo's more often than not, but I'll still have RealFeel on my computer so if you happen upon anything else that improves RealFeel still further for you, I'd be keen on hearing about it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:51 am

GB_Simo wrote:With my settings, I found that the feedback through the wheel was generally much stronger and the steering weight through the G25 heavier than Leo's; pleasingly so, nothing handicapping.

Really? Man, that is odd: I find the exact opposite. My DFP feels heavy and sluggish as hell with Leo's while much more nimble and precise with RealFeel and the same mod.

GB_Simo wrote:In a Poker Night thread a couple of weeks ago, after I'd rear-ended you in the Atlantics when I wasn't ready for you lifting, I mentioned that I thought fast corners were where I made up most of my time on people and that if more of us attacked the faster turns with confidence, lap times would tumble. It feels to me like RealFeel really would help with that, because its feedback in the quick stuff really does give me the impression of a car being thoroughly planted to the road; do you feel it helps there or is it of benefit to you across the whole lap?

Adam, you've touched upon exactly why I prefer RealFeel. Because Leo's is based upon feedback from tire grip, I get the feeling of tire scrub and push quite often, especially in high-speed corners or on late turn-in to any corner. I don't get that feeling nearly as much with RealFeel because it's based on forces acting upon the suspension, so the wheel and my driving feel smoother and more precise.

That sensation could be due to my driving style. I turn in pretty late and tend to put a lot of stress on the front tires, so the sensation of push and tire scrub that style creates probably is exacerbated by Leo's.

Our mileage clearly varies!

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:33 pm

PK, I noticed before I even posted that you and I had differing experiences of the steering weight, and I can't explain it either. Leo's with a G25, or with mine at any rate, is very light indeed. RealFeel isn't. If I had the weight of RealFeel with the feedback of Leo's, I'd be a very happy boy, because I do like that weightier feel.

I can completely see why you like RealFeel so much. That we differ in driving style (I turn in earlier than most here, from what I've seen) might explain why you prefer one and I prefer the other, but there's certainly nothing wrong with RealFeel, and if I felt like it told me enough about behaviour under braking I'd probably run it ahead of Leo's too. Anything that makes you faster can't be bad, mate.

stu · Post by **stu** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:16 pm

pk500 wrote: Same with the ETCC cars at Oulton Park. I can actually feel the car become unweighted over the numerous bumps with RealFeel; I don't feel that with Leo's.

Take care,
PK

I'll have to try this combination, Oulton Park is my local, major circuit.

PS, do you set up RealFeel with the console/Motec, or just feel?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:25 pm

stu wrote:PS, do you set up RealFeel with the console/Motec, or just feel?

Feel. But I'm going to start using the console built into RealFeel to check MaxForceAtSteeringRack values and tune from there. That seems pretty foolproof, as long as you're running clean laps and not clattering curbs or other objects.

Take care,
PK

Smurfy · Post by **Smurfy** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:39 pm

mixdj1 wrote:OK, DSP now has a dedicated rFactor Teamspeak server. Here is everything you need:

client software:
http://www.goteamspeak.com/?page=downloads

server address:
70.86.169.210:8892

The password is the same as the race server password. The server will be up 24/7 and has a limit of 10 concurrent users. If we can ever get a bigger crowd for racing I'll have the limit increased.

Thanks Mix. I just installed and tested Teamspeak. Now I get to hear Paul get angry at me

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:42 am

A skin of Peugeot's 2008 Le Mans prototype available for GTR 2:

http://www.virtualr.net/peugeot-908-le- ... -released/

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:15 pm

pk500 wrote:Adam:

Head's up -- Here's a reworked version of one of our favorite mods, the Aston Martin DB9:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 0Challenge

Have you given these a go, mate? I've been waiting for the current flurry of patches to end but it seems I might have to wait a bit longer for that, especially since I note the man responsible for the new tweaks appears to have taken on MMG levels of arrogance.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Adam:

Head's up -- Here's a reworked version of one of our favorite mods, the Aston Martin DB9:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 0Challenge
Have you given these a go, mate? I've been waiting for the current flurry of patches to end but it seems I might have to wait a bit longer for that, especially since I note the man responsible for the new tweaks appears to have taken on MMG levels of arrogance.

Exactly. He's making MMG look humble.

Plus, this is one of those mods where the dickhead who created it INSISTS that you run his wheel, controller.ini and RealFeel settings for the mod to run properly. I hate that. I have busted my ass and spent WAY too much time tweaking to my liking, and I'm not going to have some swelled-head Gordon Murray wannabe demanding that I change that.

A part of me also thinks this dick is releasing all these mini-patches just so this mod can stay front and center on the cover of rFactor Central. I've never thought that before about a mod, but this cock is so concerned about the rating of this mod that I definitely wouldn't put it past him.

Rant over. No, I haven't tried this mod.

To be fair, my boy Mike Peters is releasing a lot of patches for the IndyCar Series mod. Too many, to be honest. But I'm 100 percent certain that Mike is patching only to improve the mod, something of which I'm very skeptical regarding the patches for the new DB9 mod.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:10 pm

I think you might be onto something as far as the motivation behind these patches, fella. Here's a comment left a little while ago by the mod maker:

"All it needs now is a better max external on throttle sound and some better damage. Also I've had complaints that fast drivers cannot keep the temps down so the temps will have to be reduced. To help the slower drivers who struggle to get the temps up, well it's possible to reduce grip loss when below optimum temp. I'll explain it better when the next patch is released.

I can just about give them a pass on the sound and damage, but the tyre temperature issue is one that they've only just addressed in a patch. He states clearly in the mod description that he's got someone who he considers something of a hotshoe testing these physics, so it's hard to believe this issue didn't come up before that patch came out. Maybe I'm a cynic, maybe he's a tosser, but...well, no, he's a tosser.