OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 3

[wco81]

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/secto ... cycle=2008

Finance, Insurance & Real Estate
Barack Obama $24,860,257
John McCain $22,108,926
Ralph Nader $46,696
Bob Barr $19,396
Cynthia McKinney $3,450


Yeah I know, facts make your head hurt. Screw facts, you want the guy who deals the least with them.

You know what's real funny about this? I read the link you provided WCO. A little further down the page from your "selected facts" is this one:

Lawyers & Lobbyists
Barack Obama $24,279,665
John McCain $8,801,162
Ralph Nader $29,405
Bob Barr $5,050
Cynthia McKinney $700



And before you say "but this also includes lawyers", your item also includes Insurance and Real Estate, not just Finance.

There are no "selected facts."

My point was, Obama has outraised McCain by a huge margin but in this one troubled industry, there's parity, which was responding to the the post about Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae donations, which doesn't tell the whole story about how screwed up the financial system is and the political connections this industry wields.

Obama has raised $390 million to $171 million for McCain. Most of Obama's total BTW is from individuals, well over 90%.

So actually, Obama should be ahead of McCain in EVERY category by a big margin.

A lot of that was probably raised during the primaries, when it seemed like whoever won the Democratic nomination would have a big advantage, given the way the election was shaping up at the start of the year.

As for the breakdown in each of those categories, if you can find it, go for it.

Insurance is a part of the financial services industry. AIG is caught up in the subprime mess just like the banks. Real estate could be mortgage lenders. Or it could be developers.

As for lobbyists, both campaigns are defining it in their favor:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/29/lobbyists/

[Teal]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... the-trail/

I'm guessing 'change' isn't congruent with 'uh, uh, uh, uh, uh'...

[matthewk]

McCain has way more lobbyist ties. Don't even try to lie about that fact.

And yet Obama rasied 3 times the money from Lawyers and Lobbyists than McCain.

That's why I said "selected facts". You were quick to use that page for finance, but conveniently ignored the lobbyist ties in this case.

And don't even try to lie about it.

[Slumberland]

Hey so what's the deal with this McCain health care proposal? Employer based health benefits will be taxed as additional income for the employee? But there's a $2500 tax refund credit for individuals? How will that shake out? Are they trying to get people to opt out of their employer coverage or do they just want to play with your money for 12 months before giving it back? Or is that credit only for people without employer based care, to help pay for insurance. Is confusing, as Flaming Carrot would say.

[matthewk]

The longer this campaign goes on, the less I like Obama. This morning I hit me as to why. I think he's a phony. He started his campaign based on change. How he wasn't like all the other politicians. Then I realized that as this campaign has gone on, he has shown us that he really is just like all the rest.

Some examples:

1) Obama came out and dared McCain to take the public campaign financing and said he would to the same. He dared him. McCain took him up on it by announcing he would go that route. Obama then cahnges his mind and decides not to use the public financing.

2) Obama hammered away with his message of change, and how you couldn't keep doing things the same way guys like McCain did, who had been in Washington too long. Then he chooses a VP that has been a Senator longer than McCain

3) Obama has criticized McCain for having former lobbyists as advisors, then chooses a VP whose son is a lobbyist.

4) Obama complained about the attack ads and how we need to talk about the issues. That same day his campaign releases an ad attacking McCain for being out of touch and too old.

I know I'll recall more, but these are the items that jumped out to me this morning. For all his talk of being different, he's showing himself to be more of the same. He's been more busy deflecting, deistracting, and whining than taking on the issues.

[Slumberland]

There's some truth in all those points, Matt. What are your feelings about the campaign McCain's been running? Any changes in how you view him?

I like both of them less after the recent course of events... one of them to a much larger degree, however. I won't say which!

[JackB1]

The amount of personal insults being hurled in this thread is embarrassing.

Arguing over who accepts more $$$ from lobbyists, when they both have accepted millions, is pointless.

Go to factcheck.org and you will see that both sides are stretching the truth beyond belief, but everyone thinks "their side" isn't as bad, when the truth is they are both equally as guilty.

We were promised a fair and clean campaign here and we aren't getting it.
Anyone surprised? But the least we can do is be civil to each other here. Our political system forces us to choose sides and we bicker with each other while the politicians laugh all the way to the bank and bankrupt our country in the process.

This campaign is supposed to be all about "change", but all I hear is more of the same.

[Jared]

I go away for a few days, and this is what happens....

So since we can't moderate ourselves, I have to. Thread locked. NO politics threads until I start a NEW politics thread. I'll probably keep this locked for a couple of days. If/when I bring it back, it will be with a tighter rein on things like personal insults, attacks, and the like.

[wco81]

McCain has way more lobbyist ties. Don't even try to lie about that fact.

And yet Obama rasied 3 times the money from Lawyers and Lobbyists than McCain.

That's why I said "selected facts". You were quick to use that page for finance, but conveniently ignored the lobbyist ties in this case.

And don't even try to lie about it.

I didn't ignore s***.

If you got data about the breakdown in those categories, put it up.

Obama has raised more money from all sources period.

And different people define lobbyists differently. If you only talk about federally-registered lobbyists, McCain has raised way more money, although the totals are paltry compared to other sources.