OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[wco81]

There is a big, big difference between Al Qaeda and Iran, for instance.

Can't do this. Not only is it a mistake to compare nations to tribes, but I believe looking at any nation in the Middle East (Israel aside) and considering it as one entity, with one opinion and foreign policy is an error in judgment.

It wouldn't be the first time -- i.e. Southeast Asia.

That's what some users of labels like "islamofascism" do, conflate all of Islam with Fascism.

Which makes it easier to invade a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 but is in the Islamic world, while conjuring up imagery of mushroom clouds.

[matthewk]

It's a loaded term and it's not surprising that the ones using it advocate the most hawkish stance -- demonization of the putative enemy often being a precondition for war.

Would you prefer we discuss our differences with the a-holes that ran planes into our buildings over tea?

Serious question or you're going to pretend you haven't followed the rest of the discussion from which you quote the one sentence?

Originally I was being sarcastic, but the more I read your posts the more serious I think it's a serious question. I'd quote more of what you wrote, but I'm still looking up half of your words on Wikipedia to translate what you are trying to say.

[MACTEPsporta]

Not too start a way too painful subject here, but I am not so sure al-Quaida is the one to blame for 9/11 in the first place. While I am prepared to dismiss the conspiracy theory in which the building was destroyed by the US government to justify invasion into Middle East (although there are still a few gray areas I would like more info on), I am not completely swayed that this was al-Qaida's doing.

I was in Europe on 9/11 and watched the news the entire day. When I came back to US I was shocked to find out that some of the things I heard while in Europe never even surfaced in the states. For example: no one in the US seems to know that there was one terrorist organization that actually claimed to be responsible for 9/11 on that same day. It was the Japanese Red Army, a rather radical terrorist organization in Japan faulted for multiple subway bombings and some other ugly stuff. Apparently they were also tied to Aum Shenriko, the religious sect that spread anthrax in Japanese subway in 1995. I repeat, that was all first day news in Europe. Long before anthrax scare began. For some reason it never made it on US airwaves, and bin Laden was quickly assumed to be at fault, even though he denied it for months. Not something terrorists do, by the way. They take pride in their actions, and are quick to assume responsibilty for them. Another thing that didn't show up in American news was the fact that US bombed multiple targets in Afghanistan, hours after 9/11 (the war started a month later), accusation they officially denied. Anyone seriously thinks it was someone else?

As I said, I don't pretend to know what happened, but I feel there is some information missing. Everyone now agrees that government used 9/11 to get into Iraq, so it's entirely possible they started milking the situation even sooner to go after the "rogue" member of the bin Laden family, family whose ties with this administration are so vast, they couldn't even stay hidden from general public.

[matthewk]

[quote="wco81]That's what some users of labels like "islamofascism" do, conflate all of Islam with Fascism.

Which makes it easier to invade a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 but is in the Islamic world, while conjuring up imagery of mushroom clouds.[/quote]

Why do you take the term "islamofascism" and decide it means linking ALL of Islam with Fascism? I don't think anyone is reading it that way except you.

[Jackdog]

Not too start a way too painful subject here, but I am not so sure al-Quaida is the one to blame for 9/11 in the first place. While I am prepared to dismiss the conspiracy theory in which the building was destroyed by the US government to justify invasion into Middle East (although there are still a few gray areas I would like more info on), I am not completely swayed that this was al-Qaida's doing.

I was in Europe on 9/11 and watched the news the entire day. When I came back to US I was shocked to find out that some of the things I heard while in Europe never even surfaced in the states. For example: no one in the US seems to know that there was one terrorist organization that actually claimed to be responsible for 9/11 on that same day. It was the Japanese Red Army, a rather radical terrorist organization in Japan faulted for multiple subway bombings and some other ugly stuff. Apparently they were also tied to Aum Shenriko, the religious sect that spread anthrax in Japanese subway in 1995. I repeat, that was all first day news in Europe. Long before anthrax scare began. For some reason it never made it on US airwaves, and bin Laden was quickly assumed to be at fault, even though he denied it for months. Not something terrorists do, by the way. They take pride in their actions, and are quick to assume responsibilty for them. Another thing that didn't show up in American news was the fact that US bombed multiple targets in Afghanistan, hours after 9/11 (the war started a month later), accusation they officially denied. Anyone seriously thinks it was someone else?

As I said, I don't pretend to know what happened, but I feel there is some information missing. Everyone now agrees that government used 9/11 to get into Iraq, so it's entirely possible they started milking the situation even sooner to go after the "rogue" member of the bin Laden family, family whose ties with this administration are so vast, they couldn't even stay hidden from general public.

It was news out of Europe. That about sums it up. Any links??

Where did you get the info the US bombed multiple targets in Afghanistan hours after 9/11? I may not know many things in life but I know what it takes to gather intel and paint targets for bombing runs. It's what I did in Iraq and Afganistan in 02-03.

The first bombs were dropped in early October after weeks of hard work by men I served with for years. They went into Afghanistan weeks before the The USS Enterprise and the USS Carl Vinson fired Tomahawk cruise missiles and launched aircraft for the first strike on the Taliban. Strikes on targets they were painting. I know that for a fact.

Also if I really thought the goverment killed my cousin and thousands of innocent Americans on 9/11 to invade Iraq, I would leave this country ASAP. I don't have any doubt it was the work of al-Qaida that brought the towers down and attacked the Pentagon.

The Bin Laden family is huge and has delt with American businesspersons for years.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63

[JackB1]

Brando:

Interesting points. But I'm starting to wonder if Obama has real charisma.

Part of charisma is an ability to connect to people. I'm not sure if Obama has that. He has a certain "cool" as in cold, a certain aloofness that is being exposed the longer his campaign marches on.

Plus the guy seems, at least to me, to be really boring. We saw JFK with Jackie and the kids on the boats off Cape Cod. We saw John-John and Caroline frolicking around the White House. We saw pictures of JFK playing golf. We saw Ronnie and Nancy riding horseback, with the Gipper wearing a cowboy hat.

Sure, it's all superficial, but it builds charisma. With Obama, we see him pounding messages into his BlackBerry. Maybe he represents the technocratic "cool" of a new generation, but I don't think it connects well with people looking for the archetype of a "classic American leader."

At first, Obama was seen as charismatic because his message was filled with different slogans than we've heard for the last eight years. And he also energized the young American voter unlike any candidate in a generation.

But polls -- ugh, those horrible barometers of American politics -- indicate that Obama's grip with the young is slipping a bit. Plus he's slipping a bit across the board, in general.

So I really wonder if the charisma comes from Obama himself or his slogan-heavy message, which caught fire early due to his rhetorical skills even though that message was pretty light on specifics, and the age number on his birth certificate. It's almost as if people just assume Obama has a ton of charisma because he's 47 and McCain is almost 72.

Don't perceive this as an anti-Obama rant. No, sir. I think McCain has even less charisma. But I don't see Obama to be that much more charismatic than Kerry, really. Smoother? Sure. More comfortable in the spotlight? Yes. But pure, Reagan-esque charisma? Nope.

Take care,
PK

Have to disagree here. I think Obama has more charisma than any politician that's come down the pike in a long time. You claim he hasn't gone into specifics about issue, so how else has he garnered so much public support during the Dem. race? I think his charisma and public speaking ability are the main reasons. He looks and sounds like he is always in control. He is cool under pressure. You want boring? Look no further than McCain. Anyone catch his appearance on SNL a few month's back? He was so painfully boring, his sketch almost brought the show to it's knees. His speeches lack any emotion and he reminds me of my grandfather telling me about what he had for lunch at the senior citizen center.

Saying Obama isn't more charismatic than the wooden John Kerry is like saying Tiger Woods isn't a better golfer than Charles Barkley

[pk500]

Have to disagree here. I think Obama has more charisma than any politician that's come down the pike in a long time. You claim he hasn't gone into specifics about issue, so how else has he garnered so much public support during the Dem. race? I think his charisma and public speaking ability are the main reasons.

Simple. We have a Republican president with approval ratings in the high 20s.

Do you think Obama would be as popular if he spoke eloquently about "stay the course?" It's the mantra more than the messenger, in my opinion.

The guy struck a chord because Americans are desperate for change. Most of the instant-gratification dullards that comprise the American electorate don't have a clue about how to bring about that change, but they want it. So they respond to anyone preaching that kind of change who isn't part of the machine, even if that person is fairly light on specifics and experience about how to enact that change.

That's why people didn't believe Hillary when she mentioned change. She's been a central cog in the putrid American national political machine for the last 16 years. Obama was new, he was young, he spoke well, he promised "change."

Bingo.

But I still think the guy doesn't connect well. He doesn't have charisma to which most people can relate because, as a previous poster said, no one in America can really relate to the guy's story.

I think that's one of the reasons Joe Biden is getting strong consideration for VP, besides his age and foreign policy experience. Love him or hate him, that guy has charisma. He shows emotion and passion. Sometimes Biden feels like the reckless drunk returning to the 40th frat reunion, but you can't deny the guy has old-school magnetism.

Saying Obama isn't more charismatic than the wooden John Kerry is like saying Tiger Woods isn't a better golfer than Charles Barkley

Funny you mention Tiger Woods. There are direct connections between the so-called "charisma" of Tiger and of Obama.

Is Tiger truly charismatic? I don't think so. Not at all. He's very dull, very plain, very guarded yet always smooth and always in control. A bit of an automaton. I don't think the average golfer can identify with him or his skill one bit. He's a black guy who can target golf balls like military missiles. How many American golfers fit that profile?

But the truth is, people identify more with John Daly -- who is a horrible golfer compared to Tiger -- because he has that "everyman" charisma. People are attracted to Tiger because he's so damn good, not because he's a guy you want to hang out with and pound a few beers at the 19th hole while sharing offensive jokes.

There are parallels to Obama. I don't find the guy one bit exciting or charismatic. He's distant, a technocrat, but always smooth, always in control. A bit of an automaton. He's also an extremely skilled politician, especially for having so little national experience, and he's an excellent orator in a staged, controlled environment. People are attracted to that, even if it's not pure charisma.

Take care,
PK

[MACTEPsporta]

It was news out of Europe. That about sums it up. Any links??

Ah, the everpresent European television news bias...Even if we forget for one second that Europe is more than one country, and different countries have different political agendas... Even if we are so naive to assume that entire Europe is anti-American, and news agencies managed to determine their policies, collect, compile and edit the misinformation all in the matter of hours after the tragedy unfolded... even if all of that were true...I ask of you one thing...How is this detrimental to America??? It's September 11, Osama's name wouldn't be mentioned for days, what evil do you see in this particular piece of information?

Sadly, I won't be able to find out if this reply had any intelligent input, since I cannot force myself to read beyond this point.

[wco81]

Obama was drawing huge crowds all over the country long before he announced his candidacy.

For whatever reason, people came to hear him speak. It's been that way since his 2004 keynote.

Even before the Iowa caucuses he was building a following, when Hilary was still inevitable.

More donors than any other candidate in history have given to him. Maybe a lot of it is dissatisfaction with the way the country was going. But he attracted a lot of higher socioeconomic people -- whom Karl Rove called the wine drinkers.

These people could have gone for Clinton or any of the other candidates who've been on the national scene for a longer time.

Guess you either respond to what he's saying or you don't.

[Brando70]

The problem, PK, is that we've come to realize what a mistake it is to elect John Daly to the White House Great for boozing, playing shirtless golf with, and signing autographs on women's breasts. Not so hot for economic and foreign policy.

Obama has shown a bit of cultural savvy. He can name rap artists without prompting. He can shoot the J. And he'll make pancakes for you after he wins in basketball.

I am also lobbying for Prince to play the inaugural ball, coming out in his Controversy-era trench coat and briefs.

M-Sporta, I don't think the evidence leads to anything but Al Qaeda conducting that attack. As with any act like this, you'll find all kinds of odd and even contradictory evidence, but when you look at the macro view, it was clearly them.

[pk500]

More donors than any other candidate in history have given to him. Maybe a lot of it is dissatisfaction with the way the country was going. But he attracted a lot of higher socioeconomic people -- whom Karl Rove called the wine drinkers.

Those higher socioeconomic people don't decide elections -- the undecided blue collars and "soccer moms" do, as do the racists in the video from West Virginia that was linked here just before that state's primary.

These people could have gone for Clinton or any of the other candidates who've been on the national scene for a longer time.

Guess you either respond to what he's saying or you don't.

Am I catching a subliminal, elitist vibe in that last line? That you're an ignorant fool if you don't respond to Obama's rhetoric, which always has been characterized by uplifting slogans but few specifics?

Then again, I guess you do need a modicum of intelligence to keep track of how many times this guy has changed or "modified" his positions on various issues as he spins himself toward the center to attract the very voters who will decide this and every close election -- those outside the higher socioeconomic strata that you hold so dear.

Bottom line: Neither of the major candidates even come close to compelling me to pull the lever for them in November.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

I am also lobbying for Prince to play the inaugural ball, coming out in his Controversy-era trench coat and briefs.

But does Obama like popsicles?

HOO-WAT?



Man, "The Chappelle Show" was brilliant!

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

He really needs to come out and say, "M-A-R-S, bitches!"

[Jackdog]

It was news out of Europe. That about sums it up. Any links??

Ah, the everpresent European television news bias...Even if we forget for one second that Europe is more than one country, and different countries have different political agendas... Even if we are so naive to assume that entire Europe is anti-American, and news agencies managed to determine their policies, collect, compile and edit the misinformation all in the matter of hours after the tragedy unfolded... even if all of that were true...I ask of you one thing...How is this detrimental to America??? It's September 11, Osama's name wouldn't be mentioned for days, what evil do you see in this particular piece of information?

Sadly, I won't be able to find out if this reply had any intelligent input, since I cannot force myself to read beyond this point.

Wow. WTF are you ranting about? I wanted to know what country in Europe reported this news? I was interested. I never mentioned a goddamned thing about Europe being anti-American. I don't have a negitive European news bias at all. I do have a problem with people assuming things about me. That's ignorance and your last post reeks of it.

[wco81]

I brought up the higher socioeconomic following Obama has to point out that maybe some of his followers are drawn by reasons other than dissatisfaction with Bush, as you suggested.

People doing well, especially because of tax policies which favored them, may not have been as dissatisfied with the incumbent.

As for getting or not getting, no I wasn't saying that if you don't get him, there's something lacking in you.

Just saying he may be one of those figures that you either like or don't like, for whatever reason.

[matthewk]

Jack, no offense, but I'm not basing my vote on how well a candidate performs on SNL.

Obama does sound great and in control.....as long as he's reading from prepared speeches or when he has semi-prepared lines to recite for questions he knows are coming. Did you watch the faith debate last week? I saw a good chunk of it, and Obama did not sound in control or charismatic there at all. His answers meanderd around as he tried to find the right thing to say.

[JackB1]

But the truth is, people identify more with John Daly -- who is a horrible golfer compared to Tiger -- because he has that "everyman" charisma. People are attracted to Tiger because he's so damn good, not because he's a guy you want to hang out with and pound a few beers at the 19th hole while sharing offensive jokes.
Take care,
PK

There will never be a politician emerging from our current system will relate to an "everyman". It's virtually impossible to with how our system is set up. It was designed to repel change and Obama might have plans to make change (if it isn't all empty promises) but we all know not much will change in Washington.

[pk500]

Just saying he may be one of those figures that you either like or don't like, for whatever reason.

Fair enough.

I'm strangely ambivalent about the guy. Don't love him, don't hate him.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

There will never be a politician emerging from our current system will relate to an "everyman". It's virtually impossible to with how our system is set up. It was designed to repel change and Obama might have plans to make change (if it isn't all empty promises) but we all know not much will change in Washington.

Hogwash.

For being a total policy wonk, Clinton also had a big-time "everyman" factor, whether it was his bad golf swing, his jogs with the Secret Service to try and keep his waistline under control, playing the sax at his inauguration ball, his peccadilloes with broads, his avowed love of junk food, his quick temper, etc.

Obama has none of that. That doesn't disqualify him from being an effective leader, but the lack of that "everyman" appeal does disconnect him from many voters.

Take care,
PK

[Jackdog]

Hogwash.

For being a total policy wonk, Clinton also had a big-time "everyman" factor, whether it was his bad golf swing, his jogs with the Secret Service to try and keep his waistline under control, playing the sax at his inauguration ball, his peccadilloes with broads, his avowed love of junk food, his quick temper, etc.

Obama has none of that. That doesn't disqualify him from being an effective leader, but the lack of that "everyman" appeal does disconnect him from many voters.

Take care,
PK

Obama's indulged in marijuana, alcohol and sometimes cocaine. What more do you want man?

[RobVarak]

I am also lobbying for Prince to play the inaugural ball, coming out in his Controversy-era trench coat and briefs.

If Obama promises this, he's got my vote. I have my principles, but they are for sale. And I am a Prince maniac LOL

[Inuyasha]

Bush and Clinton both did weed, coke, and other stuff. Nobody cared and they both got elected/reelected. I think the everyman thing is overrated.

[Feanor]

You guys are just ignoring the important revelation that the Japanese Red Army organized 9-11. I'm going to start an online petition for the US to invade Japan, and another one for the US to apologize to Osama and his wrongly accused buddies.

[pk500]

Bush and Clinton both did weed, coke, and other stuff. Nobody cared and they both got elected/reelected. I think the everyman thing is overrated.

I don't follow your logic: Doing drugs or boozing heavily is any everyman thing, at least for about 95 percent of the people who go to college. People can relate to that.

So how is the everyman thing overrated if both guys were two-termers? My whole point is that very few people can relate to Obama, and it could hurt him in the stretch run. About the only everyman thing that Obama has is the drug use, and that's not something candidates trumpet as a message point. I don't think Barack is going to do a photo op with the editors of High Times, and I don't think he was an honorary judge in the Cannabis Cup in Amsterdam during his European coronation tour last month, either.

If the everyman thing was overrated, we wouldn't see photo ops of candidates having pancakes with regular folks at the diner (Obama), photo ops of candidates water skiing (Kerry) or candidate press conferences in the produce aisle of a grocery store (McCain). Every one of these candidates wants to somehow connect with Middle America -- it's vital for electability.

Take care,
PK

[Jackdog]

You guys are just ignoring the important revelation that the Japanese Red Army organized 9-11. I'm going to start an online petition for the US to invade Japan, and another one for the US to apologize to Osama and his wrongly accused buddies.

Thank you for showing me the error of my ways. Count me in on both petitions.