OT: Racing 2008-2009 (Spoiler Alert)

[pk500]

Come on, boys: If there wasn't any ludicrous work by the stewards, what else would be worth watching in an F1 race? The racing is exciting for less than 10 laps, so we need something to capture our interest.

I still like Eddie Irvine's analogy comparing F1 to NASCAR. Swerve said NASCAR is like bass fishing: It's so easy to catch bass and pass cars in NASCAR that eventually it becomes tedious and easy. He said F1 is like trout fishing: It's very hard to catch a trout and pass cars in F1, and when it happens, it's glorious and never gets old.

Still, F1 can't introduce the 2009 specs -- shearing the cars of all of the hideous aero appendages -- soon enough. The racing has not been compelling this year. In fact, today featured one of the few duels between title protagonists Hamilton and Massa that I can remember this year.

I'll never forget Hakkinen and Schumacher splitting poor Ricardo Zonta at 200 mph at Spa in 2000 as they dueled for the title. Now that was man's motor racing; that's how it could and should be.

That said, I agree with you cats: Fred Alonso still is the best driver on the grid. I don't know if Hamilton is starting to believe the "Lewis is god" press clippings created by the predominantly fawning British motor racing media, but he is making a sh*tload of mistakes this season. Too many to merit a World Championship.

Mark Hughes from Autosport wrote an interesting column about a month ago in which he said Alain Prost told him that a driver was allowed one mistake -- maybe two -- per season if he wanted to win a world title. Whomever wins the championship this year will be the true funny man of the grid, since this year's contenders have produced a comedy of errors.

I know I sound like a grumpy old man, but Hamilton, Massa or Raikkonen circa 2008 could not have touched Schumacher, either in his prime or in his final season, or Alonso in 2005 or 2006. Those guys made or two mistakes per season and otherwise were inch-perfect. They are a cut above Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen.

That said, I'll still watch F1. I enjoy the cars, the sheer difficulty of keeping the machines on the road, the various circuits and the soap opera. F1 still remains more interesting and compelling to me than NASCAR.

Take care,
PK

[Rodster]

I know I sound like a grumpy old man, but Hamilton, Massa or Raikkonen circa 2008 could have touched Schumacher, either in his prime or in his final season, or Alonso in 2005 or 2006. Those guys made or two mistakes per season and otherwise were inch-perfect. They are a cut above Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen.

F1 still remains more interesting and compelling to me than NASCAR.

Take care,
PK

You're not the only one as Bernie Eccelstone said the same thing that Schumacher was in a different league and so was Senna when compared to the current grid. Alonso no doubt is the elite driver on the grid and Ferrari is going to regret not signing him to a contract and instead extending Kimi's contract.

I stopped watching Nascar after Dale Sr. tragic death. I'm of the belief that he had the influence to keep Nascar on the right track. I'm sure he would have been pissed if they tried to institute the Chase for the Cup garbage while he was still in the sport and to take it away from it's southern roots. I still can get over how fugly those COT look.

[pk500]

I edited my prior post to say the current power trio could not have touched Schumacher or Alonso at their championship peaks.

Take care,
PK

[Smurfy]

Woah Paul,

Even though I'm critical of some of the mistakes Hamilton made this season, I still think he deserves the championship. He's produced some great drives this season. I'll dare to say the way he slides his car reminds me of Schumacher's driving more than anyone else does. Hamilton's tendency to act like he's never in the wrong also reminds me of a certain M. Schumacher. Now don't get me wrong, I don't put Hamilton in the same league as Schumi, but that's a judgement none of us can make for years still.

Let's not forget that the decisions of the stewards have made this championship closer than it should have been. I can remember Eddie Irvine driving into someone (was it Gerhard Berger?) at the chicane in Suzuka in 1996 and I don't remember any penalty for that. Heck, the very next race - the 1997 season opener in Australia - Irvine went and plowed into Villeneuve and Herbert at turn one. I don't recall any penalty for him the following race. I can also remember Montoya and Schumacher banging at the start of the Malaysian Grand Prix once, much in the same way Bourdais and Massa came together today. The difference in that case was the Ferrari was on the inside so the guy turning in from the outside got the penalty - quite opposite to what happened this time.

I think Alonso is a fantastic driver. The last few races have raised the value of his stock a great deal indeed. But I also remember his "desperate" phase in the middle of this season. And sure, Hakkinen was a great driver, but he would only show his greatness when all the stars were perfectly aligned. What happened to him in 2000?

As far as the quality of today's F1 drivers goes, I think it's at the highest I've ever seen (I started watching in 1996 - Soooo Canadian of me, eh?). When Hakkinen was battling Schumacher for the championship in 98/99, I don't remember there being anyone else worth mentioning in the field apart from some nice driving by HH Frenzen a couple of times along with Gerhard Berger's miracle in Germany. This season we have Hamilton, Raikkonen (he had some wins), Alonso, Kubica and Vettel showing us quality driving.

Actually, I'll just come out and say it: I think Raikkonen is a better driver than Hakkinen was. I don't know if it's a conspiracy by Michael at Ferrari to undermine him, but I do not for one minute believe that Kimi's performance this year reflects his true abilities. His time at Sauber and McLaren was evidence enough to satisfy me on that.

[Rodster]

I just think the level of drivers on todays grid don't match that of those of the Schumacher era or even before that. One example is Massa who drives like a bloody amateur during the British GP with multiple spins and is only 5 points away from the title. I beleive someone else mentioned or maybe it was Alonso who said as a driver you are allowed 1 or 2 mistakes a year if you want to take the Championship. This year it has been a comedy of errors by the title fighters and their still in the hunt.

If Schumacher were racing these guys the Championship title would have already been game, set and match. That's why Schumacher was penalized in Monaco in 2006 when he claimed he lost control of his car and cost Alonso pole. The stewards knew that was uncharacteristic of the way he drove. If I were a steward and it happened in 2008 I wouldn't question it.

Also I think drivers today feel more prone to push it because there's less danger driving an F1 car as opposed to driving it in the 90's where the tracks were such that there was a higher risk of dying if you did something really stupid. Eddie Irvine I believe was the one who compared modern F1 to playing tiddly winks. It's easier and less risks as a driver.

It's a good thing for the rest of the field that Alonso is not driving a Ferrari because it probably would have been game, set, match several races back.

[GB_Simo]

If Schumacher were racing these guys the Championship title would have already been game, set and match. That's why Schumacher was penalized in Monaco in 2006 when he claimed he lost control of his car and cost Alonso pole. The stewards knew that was uncharacteristic of the way he drove.

I suspect they penalised him more because he actively turned his car away from the corner than anything else, and that to me is entirely characteristic of Michael in the heat of battle (though credit him with the brains to make these decisions quickly even if they weren't sporting), but...another discussion, that.

Smurf, the Irvine move in Australia is an excellent example of the kind of thing that can happen at turn one of a motor race. People make mistakes, they get carried away, and an accident can ensue. That's racing, and if we're going to start discouraging that in the way that overtaking is already being discouraged (witness the "wait, don't pass until the next corner" antics at Monza and Bourdais being penalised for daring to take his line this weekend) then we're too far away from racing and too far towards soap opera.

As far as the title contenders go, when they've been good they've been supreme and when they've been bad they've been awful, but it's been a fairly equal sort of a year, and that's really all I'm concerned about.

[GB_Simo]

While I'm here, see what you make of this:

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 13,00.html

I know it's throwaway, but it strikes me as the kind of article that fits in nicely with our current theme.

[pk500]

I think Alonso is a fantastic driver. The last few races have raised the value of his stock a great deal indeed. But I also remember his "desperate" phase in the middle of this season.

The Renault arguably has improved more than any car on the grid in the last four or five races. That's the difference. Give Alonso a piece with which he can win, even if it's only the third- or fourth-best car on the grid, and he'll do it.

Hamilton and Massa both have cocked up chances to win this year in the two best cars on the grid. Neither are as good behind the wheel as Fred.

I'd love to see Kubica in a McLaren or Ferrari. I'll venture that he'd be better than Hamilton or Massa in terms of racecraft, too.

Kubica is arguably the most valuable driver of this season. To be within a shout of the World Championship in a car that is third-best on the grid and for which development has all but stopped in favor of the 2009 car is remarkable.

And sure, Hakkinen was a great driver, but he would only show his greatness when all the stars were perfectly aligned. What happened to him in 2000?

He lost to one of the two or three greatest F1 drivers of all time. Will any of the losers in this year's title fight be able to say that after the season? No.

As far as the quality of today's F1 drivers goes, I think it's at the highest I've ever seen (I started watching in 1996 - Soooo Canadian of me, eh?). When Hakkinen was battling Schumacher for the championship in 98/99, I don't remember there being anyone else worth mentioning in the field apart from some nice driving by HH Frenzen a couple of times along with Gerhard Berger's miracle in Germany. This season we have Hamilton, Raikkonen (he had some wins), Alonso, Kubica and Vettel showing us quality driving.

You'll be surprised, but I agree that the 2008 F1 field is deeper than the 1998 field. But that has NOTHING to do with a golden age of driving talent and EVERYTHING to do with the number of factory teams on the F1 grid today.

In 1998, at least half of the teams on the grid were forced to take the biggest check to determine either their second driver, both drivers and even test drivers. There were hardly any factory teams with factory-backed talent search schemes like the Red Bull program or the Renault Driver Development program, and the nascent McLaren Mercedes driver development program, which has produced talent such as Hamilton, DiResta and Paffett, had yet to bear fruit.

In 2008, there are only two privateer teams left -- Force India and Williams. The rest all have factory backing or backing from one huge source of income (Red Bull, Toro Rosso). That allows more talent to reach F1 because teams can take the most skilled drivers instead of the fattest checks.

Ten years ago, a guy like Kubica wouldn't have made it to F1. He was an unknown from the Renault World Series with no money, so no team would have taken a chance on him. BMW could because it didn't need his cash and had a spot for him to test even though he had no money.

Actually, I'll just come out and say it: I think Raikkonen is a better driver than Hakkinen was. I don't know if it's a conspiracy by Michael at Ferrari to undermine him, but I do not for one minute believe that Kimi's performance this year reflects his true abilities. His time at Sauber and McLaren was evidence enough to satisfy me on that.

That is pure madness, Smurf. Mika Hakkinen beat Michael Schumacher when Schumacher was at his peak powers and in a good car. There's only one other driver in F1 who can make that claim, Fernando Alonso.

The 1993 Benetton and Michael weren't ready for prime time, and the 1996 and 1997 Ferraris were crates.

Raikkonen has nowhere near the racecraft of Hakkinen. He has nowhere near the commitment of Hakkinen. He has nowhere near the ability to mold a team around him like Hakkinen. He has nowhere near the balls of Hakkinen. Remember, Mika Hakkinen was nearly killed in his accident at Adelaide yet recovered mentally and physically to become a World Champion.

If you're talking any list of Finnish F1 drivers, Raikkonen can place no higher than third, behind Rosberg and Hakkinen.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

It's a good thing for the rest of the field that Alonso is not driving a Ferrari because it probably would have been game, set, match several races back.

I agree. Alonso has beaten Michael Schumacher and knows what it takes. No one else on the F1 grid, save for Barrichello, does.

Take care,
PK

[Smurfy]

That is pure madness, Smurf.

So what if I didn't take my medication today?

I'll stand by my feelings on Raikkonen. I may be in a very small minority, but Hakkinen's pass on Michael at Spa was more balls than racing ability in my mind. Massa's pass on Webber this weekend in Japan showed that he can do the same under those circumstances.

[OMG, after proof-reading this I'm starting to think I'm nuts now]

[pk500]

I'll stand by my feelings on Raikkonen. I may be in a very small minority, but Hakkinen's pass on Michael at Spa was more balls than racing ability in my mind. Massa's pass on Webber this weekend in Japan showed that he can do the same under those circumstances.

There's absolutely no comparison between those two passes. Hakkinen's pass at Spa was arguably one of the greatest overtaking maneuvers of the last 10 years.

And you don't win two world titles against Michael Schumacher without racecraft.

Take care,
PK

[Smurfy]

And what kind of racecraft is required to break your opponent's leg?

If it wasn't for that accident in England, Schumacher would have been 1999 World Champion. Recall how good that number one Ferrari was in Malaysia and Japan?

Oh, but Hakkinen's drives in Imola and Monza were pure greatness that season

[pk500]

And what kind of racecraft is required to break your opponent's leg?

If it wasn't for that accident in England, Schumacher would have been 1999 World Champion. Recall how good that number one Ferrari was in Malaysia and Japan?

Oh, but Hakkinen's drives in Imola and Monza were pure greatness that season

Yes, and I also recall how superb Schumacher was for a few years with his starting grid follies at Suzuka.

Imola and Monza were Hakkinen's two main mistakes in '99. Monza was atrocious. But this year's title protagonists, especially Massa, have made that many mistakes in one race. Add Raikkonen to that list.

I think one of Hakkinen's most imperious drives came in 2001 at Indianapolis. The McLaren was the second-best car that year, and Hakkinen controlled that race beautifully.

Hakkinen doesn't compare to Schumacher. No one in this era does. But Mika was at a higher level than Raikkonen at his peak, in terms of racecraft, team leadership and mental application.

Take care,
PK

[Rodster]

Hakkinen doesn't compare to Schumacher. No one in this era does. But Mika was at a higher level than Raikkonen at his peak, in terms of racecraft, team leadership and mental application.

Take care,
PK

Good points. The main difference between Mika and Kimi is that Mika was one who worked hard to develop his car. Kimi just doesn't give a flip other than driving it on Sunday.

[GB_Simo]

Dear Lewis,

Congratulations on a job well done today. Now, on behalf of this entire United Kingdom of ours, something I need to ask of you: please, please, please don't f*ck it all up again this time.

Your pal,
Simo



An excellent race from Hamilton today, and no signs of any panic under pressure, though this must have at least something to do with there being no signs of any pressure. I continue to maintain, as I did some months ago in this very thread, that this year's McLaren is a better car than last year's, but it's only quick in the hands of one driver so victory today was critical; if Ferrari have any kind of advantage at Interlagos, as past history suggests they might, there are two of them capable of beating Hamilton, where it seems only one silver car can beat Massa.

James Allen made an interesting point today, the point being that - actually, no, I'll wait for you to go back and read that again. I really said it, and I'll still be here when you're done taking it in.

The point: today was only the second time in Hamilton's career that he's set the fastest lap of a Grand Prix. I don't know about you, but when I think of Hamilton I tend to think of dizzying pace rather than metronomic consistency; clearly, his wins are being built more on the latter than the former, and that's not something that's really been coming across to me when I've watched him race; how much of that is down to me and how much is ITV's hysteria whenever Lewis crosses a timing beam, I don't know. As a point of reference, Kimi Raikkonen has set 10 fastest laps in 2008 alone.

Not a lot else to talk about today, was there? I enjoyed Alonso's spirited late pursuit of the cruising Ferraris, liked how Giancarlo Fisichella seemed to appear in every second shot for most of the race, and hope Rubens gets the new deal out of Honda that his drives of late have merited.


I didn't see much Moto GP, so perhaps I've backed the wrong horse this morning - Dovizioso and Hayden looked like they were having fun towards the end, but that was the only part of the race I caught.

[Rodster]

Yeah it's certainly looking good for Hammy. Last year McClaren ruined his race, idiots. I never blamed Lewis for the total muck up in China last year. The guy was a rookie and was doing the corporate dance. David Coulthard had said he would have yelled into his mic I need to come in NOW if he were Lewis.

Brazil was a different story as he screwed up that race. All he had to do was at least get into fifth place I believe and the title would have been his. I'm happy for Lewis if he wins and he should cause Massa is not on his level. But truth be told I hope he does win it so we can all see Ron 'the prick' Dennis ride off into the sunset. I hate that guy, I really do.

I have no problems with Martin Whitmarsh or Haug but I can't stand Dennis.

[pk500]

A sterling MotoGP race Sunday from Malaysia, on two levels.

First, Rossi's pursuit and stalking of Pedrosa was pure Valentino. He caught the little Spanish prick and sat on his rear wheel for about five laps, looking for openings or waiting for Pedrosa to make a mistake.

Finally, Vale pounced about halfway through the race and said so long. But just when it looked like the race would drift to sleep, Nicky made his run at Dovizioso, and that was hammer-and-tongs stuff for the last third of the race. Really fun.

The ALMS race at Laguna was a f*cking CORKER. The battle between the Acuras, Audis and Porsches was sizzling, and the LMP2 finish was fantastic, especially when you consider these guys were racing for four hours.

I know I'm late to the party this season, but from what I've seen, no automobile road racing series has it going like ALMS. Great cars, great racing, good venues, manufacturers, good drivers. A complete package.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

Yeah it's certainly looking good for Hammy.

The infamous Rodster Kiss Of Death first seen this time last year...

But truth be told I hope he does win it so we can all see Ron 'the prick' Dennis ride off into the sunset. I hate that guy, I really do.

Any particular reason why? I feel nought but indifference towards most of the team bosses but Ron is one of the few I like. He's a racer, as you'd have to be to spend 40 years involved in top-line motorsport, and while he sometimes has what he'd probably call 'identifiable communication optimisation issues' he seems a decent enough bloke.

[GB_Simo]

20 years since the Commendatore passed on, and still Enzo's spirit lives on - Ferrari want to take their ball home:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71786

I generally struggle to immediately recall any Ferrari politcal manouevring, past or present, that I've had any cause to agree with, but on this they've got my support. Not that I've ever believed a standardised engine really would happen, but it's heartening to have the manufacturers publicly speaking out.

[Rodster]

I don't think it'll happen either. I'm glad Toyota joined in the threat as well. I appreciate Max trying to cut cost but there are other ways to do it. One of his statements I agree with that's actually laughable is when he questioned why it takes 1,000 people to put 2 cars on the track?

[pk500]

If Max is so intent on creating a better show for fans, then why doesn't he ask Bernie why he is charging new F1 races an annual sanctioning fee of upwards of $52 million, with an automatic annual increase of 10 percent, to move races away from the European heartland to areas where there is zero motorsport history or interest?

Sure, state governments are picking up most of the tab for these new banana republic GP's, but some of that exorbitant expense is being passed on to the public through sky-high ticket prices. Any wonder that grandstands are empty in Shanghai when race day tickets cost $300 in a nation where that's a month's wage?

I just find it laughable as hell that Max insists that teams cut their expenditures while Bernie is allowed to extort incredible amounts of money annually from national organizing groups that desire the "privilege" to play host to a GP.

F1 will survive in spite of itself, but it is clearly the most f*cked-up form of motorsport in the world, with World Rally running a close second. Both are under the auspices of Max Mosley and the FIA -- no coincidence.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

F1 is unique in the world of motorsport, for two reasons.

One, it is hideously expensive and awash in money, whether it's driver salaries, team budgets, hospitality budgets, track sanctioning fees, etc. While F1 can trim costs, the day it becomes a moderately priced open-wheel series like the IndyCar Series or A1GP is the day it no longer is F1.

Two, it requires each team to construct its own chassis and welcomes a great number of engine manufacturers. Again, the day it becomes a spec or close-to-spec series is the day it no longer is F1.

And if that day ever comes, I will abandon F1 faster than you can say Eliseo Salazar for the ALMS, Le Mans and FIA GT series, where there is at least a bit of technical freedom and a variety of machinery.

I've already enjoyed the ALMS more than F1 this season, so I'm not that far away from making the leap. Both the Le Mans 24 Hours and Petit Le Mans were infinitely more interesting and better races than anything F1 has produced this season.

No driver in F1 has produced a drive anything near McNish's brilliance at Petit Le Mans. That drive, plus his victory at Le Mans, have secured my vote for McNish as Worldwide Racing Driver of the Year in 2008, with Scott Dixon a runner-up.

McNish has delivered with aplomb in the two biggest races of his discipline and is clearly the best sports car driver in the world. Dixon was a paragon of consistency, winning on ovals, road courses and an airport circuit, and he won his sport's biggest race.

No one in F1 has produced that kind of CV this season.

Take care,
PK

[Rodster]

Good points PK wrt F1. The only varible though and this is where I agree with what Max is trying to do is the World Financial crisis. We don't know if it will get better or worse.

[Gurantsu]

I agree on all counts PK. In my eyes the sports car world has passed F1 as the premier form of motor racing.

Of course, maybe an F1 "24 Hours Of Monaco" would change my mind!

[GB_Simo]

No driver in F1 has produced a drive anything near McNish's brilliance at Petit Le Mans.

True, but even Piquet Jr waits for the race to start before he has an accident. I'm not arguing, mind; it was a glorious drive, but Allan didn't leave himself a lot of room to produce anything else.

I can't say Eliseo Salazar all that quickly so I guess I'm keeping the faith for a while yet. I know where Eliseo comes from, though, which is more than dear old Murray did:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3SXbGDcMe ... re=related