NFL Discussion (Week 12) Common Sense 1 - T.O. 0

[Leebo33]

I don't remember you doing that once last year or this year up until this game, and look at the success you have had. If Pittsburgh does end up losing tonight, I'm going to place the blame on your and your lack of belief in the Steeelers.

I didn't play last year. The reason I've had success this year is mainly luck

It took 4 AFC Championship Game losses for me to realize that the outcome isn't determined by my belief in the Steelers.

I'm really looking forward to the game. It will be my first Steelers' game in HDTV.

[Brando70]

I don't think anyone said that the Bears are winning because of Orton...hell they are comparing him to Dilfer. If he's not the opitome of winning in spite of rather than because of, I don't know what is.

Yeah, I'm not trying to suggest Orton looks good. But I do think it's best for the Bears to leave him as the starter, rather than switch to Grossman or Jeff Blake. Given Grossman's injury history, his future as the Bears franchise QB is fading fast. I think you ride it out with Orton and see if he can make the leap next year.

[ScoopBrady]

I actually think Orton has been doing a decent job. Outside of his 5 INT outing he has only thrown 7 interceptions in 10 games. That's not bad at all for a rookie quarterback. He's making his reads and getting rid of the ball when he should. With only 1 quality receiver to throw to Orton isn't going to put up big numbers. His best game of the year was the one that Mark Bradley started to emerge as a solid number 2. Justin Gage is showing some improvement in that role but Orton realistically only has one good receiver. He also settles down as the game goes on. He's been making some nice 10-20 yard throws but hasn't been able to get the ball deep down field yet. That will come, especially when the Bears have more than one threat at the wideout position.

I'd like to see the Bears bolster their receiving corp in the offseason and have an open competition between Orton and Grossman for the starting position next year. In the meantime, Orton is getting the job done.

[Zeppo]

I don't know how one can fairly judge a quarterback from watching games on TV. TV doesn't show you the important half of the passing game, the game going on in the defensive backfield. All they show you is the QB with the ball, and a bunch of 300 pounders wrestling with each other. You can't tell what kinds of reads he is making, or whether he is missing wide open guys, or what is going on. Scoop goes to the home games, I know that.

I saw Orton in the opener, and was impressed by him as a rookie. He was anything but phased. That said, it was the opener, and as defenses are traditionally ahead of offenses in the early season, plus we are talking about the Bear offense, there wasn't that much to judge by. But I thought he looked really good for a rookie.

Certainly nothing helps a any QB more than a great running game, except a superb Defense. The Bears have both, as did Pittsburgh last year, and that will not only help a young QB look good, but will help him develop well and with confidence, as well.

I don't think he's looked as good as a rookie as Rothelisberger (sp?) did last year, and I firmly believe it was the fact he was a rookie that doomed them to lose the Championship game. But put it this way: after the Bears game, I wished we had Orton instead of Ramsey. Of course, Ramsey has been so badly beaten and battered by the Spurrier years that his confidence could well be shot, but it looked to me like Orton was far more aware, in that first game, of everything going on on the field than Ramsey has most of the time.

[Dave]

I don't know how one can fairly judge a quarterback from watching games on TV. TV doesn't show you the important half of the passing game, the game going on in the defensive backfield.

That's exactly why I don't think Harrington is nearly as bad as he looks out there. His WR were jogging horrible routes for most of the game against the Vikes.

[RobVarak]

I don't know how one can fairly judge a quarterback from watching games on TV. TV doesn't show you the important half of the passing game, the game going on in the defensive backfield.

I agree, and I've been to a personal-record 3 Bears games already this year, headed to my fourth on Sunday. If anything, he looks BETTER on TV than he does in reality. He doesn't make reads, he doesn't check off and he doesn't pick up blitzes. This is all the more obvious in person. You can see him lock on his primary on damn-near every pass play. Telegraphed blitzes still don't prompt him to go to the hot receiver, he either sticks with the play as called, takes a sack or heaves it away. Combine this package with the fact that he regularly overthrows wide-open receivers, and you have a QB who is a ticking time bomb.

The only thing I've enjoyed watching him in person is the anticipation of possibly actually catching one of his errant passes up in Row ZZZ where I'm sitting

Tom Thayer, who is now a Bears radio analyst, has suggested that the Bears coaching staff has suggested that since the 5-pick game he overthrow rather than risk an underthrow. If that's the case, he has learned this lesson all too well.

Scoop, I agree that the receiving corp is pretty anemic. But he has a good WR and a more than servicable TE who get open only to be overthrown several times per game.

I don't see why you wait until the off-season to open the competition between Orton & Grossman. If Rex can play next week, I say that you let that derby start right now.

[Toper]

I don't know how one can fairly judge a quarterback from watching games on TV. TV doesn't show you the important half of the passing game, the game going on in the defensive backfield.

That's exactly why I don't think Harrington is nearly as bad as he looks out there. His WR were jogging horrible routes for most of the game against the Vikes.

Personally, I think Harrington is just plain horrible. He's part of the "Tedford Five" (Dilfer, Akili Smith, Harrington, Boller, and Carr), a group of successful college QB's that haven't really set the NFL passing world on fire (for whatever reason from being under Tedford's upbringing). Nothing about their pro careers has impressed me at all (Dilfer's Super Bowl run withstanding). I wouldn't be surprised if Rogers' career mirrors that group's eventually.

Toper

[ScoopBrady]

I agree, and I've been to a personal-record 3 Bears games already this year, headed to my fourth on Sunday. If anything, he looks BETTER on TV than he does in reality. He doesn't make reads, he doesn't check off and he doesn't pick up blitzes. This is all the more obvious in person. You can see him lock on his primary on damn-near every pass play. Telegraphed blitzes still don't prompt him to go to the hot receiver, he either sticks with the play as called, takes a sack or heaves it away. Combine this package with the fact that he regularly overthrows wide-open receivers, and you have a QB who is a ticking time bomb.

I think he's improved each week with reading defenses. The past 4 games he's started to check off the db's and is definitely going through his progressions. He's even starting to point things out at the line of scrimmage. He locked on receivers early in the season but has improved on that as well. The receivers are responsible for cutting from their routes on blitzes and other than the constantly double-teamed Muhammad, that just isn't happening. When there's nothing there he gets rid of the ball. That's what he's supposed to do. He's usually his most errant in the first half but settles down in the second half.

The Bears definitely aren't winning games because of him but they're not losing games because of him either. I think a full season under his belt can really be a good thing for him and I just want stability at the quarterback position for the first time in a long time.

[Zeppo]

The Bears definitely aren't winning games because of him but they're not losing games because of him either. I think a full season under his belt can really be a good thing for him and I just want stability at the quarterback position for the first time in a long time.

Rob V.:

You must remember, this guys is a rookie. Every play, every game he spends under center against these NFL defenses (well, OK, a bunch of them are NFC North defenses, but you know ), he is learning and gaining experience.

Think about Peyton Manning his early seasons, or even Eli last year and now. Just judging him as a rookie, I think he is doing well. Of course, I'll reiterate that he has the benefit of a quality run game and an outstanding defense, which could make almost any rookie look good. But still, he's doing well for a rookie and apparently (i'll take Scoop's word on this) is improving week to week.

Thing is, I've seen a lot of QBs look like they are headed to becoming quality starters, only to end up duds. Meanwhile, here in Redskins country, I've seen any number of average to poor looking quarterbacks go on to have great success elsewhere. Humphries, Gannon and even Trent Green (who looked OK but not anywhere near what he has become) come to mind. You just never know with QBs, and I think the main reason is that we all give them too much credit and too much blame for what is going on with the rest of the team, including defense.

The big question for me is what of Grossman? Will they keep him, will he prove to be a quality QB like Favre did after Atlanta let him go? Brings to mind the whole thing in SD with Rivers. What will happen with him? One would assume, based on his college career, he should be better than Orton. But hey, you never know. Or I guess we, of the fan type, never know. I mean, look at that Harvard kid who went and pulled a win out of St. Louis's ass yesterday. . . .

[dbdynsty25]

Did you guys hear about the guy in Philly who ran onto the field and spread his deceased mother's ashes across the field because she was the biggest Eagles fan he knew? That is pure comedy gold.

[Brando70]

I don't see why you wait until the off-season to open the competition between Orton & Grossman. If Rex can play next week, I say that you let that derby start right now.

If Orton starts costing them games, then I agree, think about the switch. But it's not like Grossman has proven he can handle the load either. I would be reluctant to make a switch right now because it's been so long since Grossman has played in a real game.

BTW, the talk about Orton making his reads reminded me that when I watch a QB scanning the field now, I think about the f***in Madden cone. I did see him locking onto Muhammed a few times during the Bucs game and I was thinking "R+X, Orton! Switch to Gage!"

[pk500]

I don't know how one can fairly judge a quarterback from watching games on TV. TV doesn't show you the important half of the passing game, the game going on in the defensive backfield. All they show you is the QB with the ball, and a bunch of 300 pounders wrestling with each other. You can't tell what kinds of reads he is making, or whether he is missing wide open guys, or what is going on.

Well, I watched the Colts-Steelers game last night on TV, and Manning is pretty damn good.

I know, I'm a dick ... !!!

Take care,
PK

[HipE]

Well, that sure didn't go like I hoped it would. After that first td pass by Manning, I thought the Steelers defense played pretty well, definitely well enough to win if the offense had held up their end of the deal. The Colts defense however completely dominated the game, blowing up what seemed like every single play in the backfield. I don't know if the Steelers offensive line was just that bad or if it was all the Colts defense, but that was as dominating a performance against the Steelers as I can remember.

One thing that took a little sting out of the beating though was the performance of former Hawkeye Bob Sanders. Sanders is one of my three favorite Hawkeyes ever (along with Chuck Long and Tim Dwight), and it was fun to see him flying around out there last night. One play in particular, the Steelers ran a screen pass on 3rd and long backed up near their own goalline, and Parker looked like he was about to break it for a big gain. All of a sudden, Sanders just flies in to drop Parker, he literally wasn't even on the screen until a split second before the tackle. I suppose if this isn't the Steelers year, I'll be pulling for the Colts to win the AFC. It can't be a coincidence that they are 11-0, and are also the only team to have two key starters from Iowa.

[vader29]

Colts played a great game last night. This weekends game with Cincinnati is going to be huge with the winner probably taking the division, but it's looking like it's going to be tough for anyone to get through Denver or Indianapolis come playoff time.