OT-Zero Tolerance policies gone way too far...

skidmark · Post by **skidmark** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:47 pm

bdoughty wrote: It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the worldwide homocide/gun related death rate to see that countries that have lax gun control are at the top.
Oh and #1 South Africa (who has 8 times the nearest homocide rate then any other country) just got worse

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/afric ... rime.reut/

The #1 culprit is...........

Survey says

Oh yea, the only reason there is killing in South Africa is because they allow the private ownership of guns... only an idiot can't see that. There is a direct correlation between gun control and violent crime that is evident in Switzerland, Israel, Russia and Mexico - oh wait, those are all countries that completely debunk that theory.

England's crime has increased since legislating stiffer gun control laws.

All that quote does is show how far off Thomas Jeffersons wisdom is when it relates to the world we live in TODAY.

All that it shows is that people are more willing to attach themselves to someone spinning numbers to postulate their viewpoint than delve into the wisdom that our founding fathers had.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:57 pm

thebigcaptain wrote: my mistake.
i'm not the one that is confused.
you are.

you say the school is injecting school policy outside of school jurisdiction.

the school has imposed a suspension, not an expulsion, upon this student pending police investigation of that same student's attempt to trade a handgun that he had stolen to another student in the school.

So, are you trying to say that suspension is somehow not school policy, and expulsion is? If not, what are you trying to draw here? No such attempt was ever made. They got to it before that, far away from the school and the possible act. It is not the school's responsibility to impose sanctions like this when nothing actually took place on campus other than a conversation that dealt with a trade. A stupid trade, to be sure, but it wasn't like a Klebold-Harris deal.

Am I to understand that a kid can go to school, talk about how drunk he's going to get this weekend, gets busted for DUI...and the school can impose a suspension on him for getting a DUI away from campus just because he spoke of it at school? Really?

I don't care about the 2nd amendment in this case. It doesn't apply. A 9 year old doesn't have the right to keep and bear arms, so I really don't understand how that gets into this situation one way or the other.

What this is about is not, then, the long arm of the law, but about whether the school should have such an arm. When it isn't on school grounds, it's not the school's place.

Brando70 wrote:But if it's in his backpack, I would assume he at least considered bringing it to school.

You can't suspend a kid based on pre-emptive assumptions, Brando. The kid can't be suspended for something he hasn't done at school or on school property.

brando70 wrote:Plus, since his guardians also seem a bit negligent, the suspension is a way to punish them, too, since they have to make arrangements for him during the suspension.

The school is not the judicial system, bro. Punishing parents? They have no right to do that...you know that...negligent or not is not for them to decide...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:01 pm

thebigcaptain wrote:
what may have happened as a result afterwards is conjecture.

And conjecture is enough to suspend a kid??

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:06 pm

bdoughty wrote:

All that quote does is show how far off Thomas Jeffersons wisdom is when it relates to the world we live in TODAY.

Boy, do you ever assume too much. So you're wiser than Jefferson now? I'd betcha that Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, Franklin and co. were a hell of a lot smarter than the "enlightened" bunch who run around claiming to be wise this day and age...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:19 pm

bdoughty wrote:
pk500 wrote: Think about when you were 9: If someone told you that you were missing the next five days of school, you'd feel elated rather than humiliated or chastened.

"Five days with no school? Yippee!"

"Five days with detention or after-school tutoring? That sucks -- I must have done something wrong."

Take care,
PK

I am 110% sure your parents raised you better then that and once you realize what those 5 days at home would have been like you might reconsider your stance. I know that if I was SUPENDED for 5 days of school my life would have been a living hell and I would have loved detetnetion. My parents would have beaten my ass cherry red and then for 5 days I would have worked my ass off (manual labor).

True. Same here.

But any parents who have the kind of kid who barters an Xbox for a gun clearly doesn't have much parental supervision or discipline. So we can't apply the standards of our upbringing to this kid.

Take care,
PK

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:37 pm

tealboy03 wrote:
bdoughty wrote:

All that quote does is show how far off Thomas Jeffersons wisdom is when it relates to the world we live in TODAY.

Boy, do you ever assume too much. So you're wiser than Jefferson now? I'd betcha that Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, Franklin and co. were a hell of a lot smarter than the "enlightened" bunch who run around claiming to be wise this day and age...

Wiser the Thomas Jefferson? Where did I say that?

Repeat this 50 times then get back to me.

"wisdom as it relates to the world we live in today"

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:44 pm

skidmark wrote:
bdoughty wrote: It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the worldwide homocide/gun related death rate to see that countries that have lax gun control are at the top.
Oh and #1 South Africa (who has 8 times the nearest homocide rate then any other country) just got worse

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/afric ... rime.reut/

The #1 culprit is...........

Survey says
Oh yea, the only reason there is killing in South Africa is because they allow the private ownership of guns... only an idiot can't see that. There is a direct correlation between gun control and violent crime that is evident in Switzerland, Israel, Russia and Mexico - oh wait, those are all countries that completely debunk that theory.

England's crime has increased since legislating stiffer gun control laws.

All that quote does is show how far off Thomas Jeffersons wisdom is when it relates to the world we live in TODAY.
All that it shows is that people are more willing to attach themselves to someone spinning numbers to postulate their viewpoint than delve into the wisdom that our founding fathers had.

Once again we are comparing the 1700's to the year 2005. Their wisdom was fine for the time they lived in. Times do change and things evolve.

Also care to provide some sort of information as to Englands growing crime due to stiffer gun control laws? I hear the internet has a ton of information to sort through, feel free and find something on this and linkify us.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:47 pm

pk500 wrote:
bdoughty wrote:
pk500 wrote: Think about when you were 9: If someone told you that you were missing the next five days of school, you'd feel elated rather than humiliated or chastened.

"Five days with no school? Yippee!"

"Five days with detention or after-school tutoring? That sucks -- I must have done something wrong."

Take care,
PK

I am 110% sure your parents raised you better then that and once you realize what those 5 days at home would have been like you might reconsider your stance. I know that if I was SUPENDED for 5 days of school my life would have been a living hell and I would have loved detetnetion. My parents would have beaten my ass cherry red and then for 5 days I would have worked my ass off (manual labor).
True. Same here.

But any parents who have the kind of kid who barters an Xbox for a gun clearly doesn't have much parental supervision or discipline. So we can't apply the standards of our upbringing to this kid.

Take care,
PK

I don't know fact one about the parents so I really can't speculate. As Brando said if they were this lax then the punishment of being suspended would effect them as much as the child.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:26 pm

bdoughty wrote:
tealboy03 wrote:
bdoughty wrote:

All that quote does is show how far off Thomas Jeffersons wisdom is when it relates to the world we live in TODAY.

Boy, do you ever assume too much. So you're wiser than Jefferson now? I'd betcha that Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, Franklin and co. were a hell of a lot smarter than the "enlightened" bunch who run around claiming to be wise this day and age...
Wiser the Thomas Jefferson? Where did I say that?

Repeat this 50 times then get back to me.

"wisdom as it relates to the world we live in today"

True wisdom has no time limit, Brad...

As to whether you said you were wiser than Thomas Jefferson, I misread. I thought that was insinuated. Now that I read it again, you didn't. I retract...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:39 pm

bdoughty wrote: Once again we are comparing the 1700's to the year 2005. Their wisdom was fine for the time they lived in. Times do change and things evolve.

Does this sound like sound wisdom for today, Brad?

"Without good direction, people lose their way; the more wise counsel you follow, the better your chances."

It's from King Solomon. Has time changed in regards to this ancient wisdom? Wisdom is not relative...

skidmark · Post by **skidmark** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:40 pm

bdoughty wrote: Also care to provide some sort of information as to Englands growing crime due to stiffer gun control laws? I hear the internet has a ton of information to sort through, feel free and find something on this and linkify us.

Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/578750.stm

but my point is that looking at nations and their correlating crime rates has many more factors and influences than guns.

Once again we are comparing the 1700's to the year 2005. Their wisdom was fine for the time they lived in. Times do change and things evolve.

Wisdom - The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.

Has what is true or right changed? We're not talking about laws about how quickly we can ride our horse down the main street of a town... we are talking about a document that was put together with a lot of insight about man himself and his past failures. Our founding fathers established this nation on principles of truth, and we should at least look at the wisdom that led them to that truth rather than dismiss it for results of some modern day poll or survey that has been construed to provide emphasis towards a specific result simply because it is a "different time."

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:45 pm

tealboy03 wrote:
bdoughty wrote:
tealboy03 wrote:
Boy, do you ever assume too much. So you're wiser than Jefferson now? I'd betcha that Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, Franklin and co. were a hell of a lot smarter than the "enlightened" bunch who run around claiming to be wise this day and age...
Wiser the Thomas Jefferson? Where did I say that?

Repeat this 50 times then get back to me.

"wisdom as it relates to the world we live in today"
True wisdom has no time limit, Brad...

As to whether you said you were wiser than Thomas Jefferson, I misread. I thought that was insinuated. Now that I read it again, you didn't. I retract...

Somewhere Brad is extremely thankful for your retratction?

I am sure many wise people thought the world was flat or that aliens were on Mars. Many of Albert Einsteins theories have been disproven over the years and I would imagine he would be considered wiser then most.

True Wisdom has nothing to do with time and can't be placed in a vacuum. What was once considered wise today might not be tomorrow. The process of evolviong thought and ability to study what "wise men" have said and improve upon it proves you otherwise.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:45 pm

skidmark wrote: Has what is true or right changed? We're not talking about laws about how quickly we can ride our horse down the main street of a town... we are talking about a document that was put together with a lot of insight about man himself and his past failures. Our founding fathers established this nation on principles of truth, and we should at least look at the wisdom that led them to that truth rather than dismiss it for results of some modern day poll or survey that has been construed to provide emphasis towards a specific result simply because it is a "different time."

A word of caution, skid...absolute truth isn't subscribed to by everyone in here, so if you get some mishmash response to this, well...you know that. I agree with you. Very well said...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:52 pm

bdoughty wrote:
Somewhere Brad is extremely thankful for your retratction?

I am sure many wise people thought the world was flat or that aliens were on Mars. Many of Albert Einsteins theories have been disproven over the years and I would imagine he would be considered wiser then most.

True Wisdom has nothing to do with time and can't be placed in a vacuum. What was once considered wise today might not be tomorrow. The process of evolviong thought and ability to study what "wise men" have said and improve upon it proves you otherwise.

Is that not your name? If not...oops. Don't know why I thought it was...

Einstein was extremely smart-doesn't make him wise. There's a difference. Same with Galileo, the flat earth bunch, etc. Wisdom has nothing to do with that. Plato, Aristotle, Solomon...their wise words are not changed, and yet remain wise to this day. Wisdom is a gift that comes more from life experiences than from intelligence. What was thought to be smart at one time can always be improved upon. What is truly wise cannot be...

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:54 pm

skidmark wrote:
bdoughty wrote: Also care to provide some sort of information as to Englands growing crime due to stiffer gun control laws? I hear the internet has a ton of information to sort through, feel free and find something on this and linkify us.
Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/578750.stm

but my point is that looking at nations and their correlating crime rates has many more factors and influences than guns.

Once again we are comparing the 1700's to the year 2005. Their wisdom was fine for the time they lived in. Times do change and things evolve.
Wisdom - The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.

Has what is true or right changed? We're not talking about laws about how quickly we can ride our horse down the main street of a town... we are talking about a document that was put together with a lot of insight about man himself and his past failures. Our founding fathers established this nation on principles of truth, and we should at least look at the wisdom that led them to that truth rather than dismiss it for results of some modern day poll or survey that has been construed to provide emphasis towards a specific result simply because it is a "different time."

Sunday, 26 December, 1999, 12:21 GMT on that link? Can you try and get something within the 21st century?

skidmark · Post by **skidmark** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:01 pm

bdoughty wrote:Sunday, 26 December, 1999, 12:21 GMT on that link? Can you try and get something within the 21st century?

1998's evidence not good enough for you for a law that went into affect in 97? No wonder Jefferson and his wisdom is so easily dismissed

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:05 pm

This thread has officially devolved into drivel, with heavy buckets of urine being slung around.

Locked.

Out,
PK