ToCA Monday Night Medium Length Race

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Zeppo
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Post by Zeppo »

TCrouch wrote:Either way, you still have guys who are faster, forced to blast through traffic on a tight track in 2 laps? Just seems bizarre. I guess my rating was the highest and placed first, so either way I was screwed, but that's just weird. It's asking for cornholing and bashing?
Terry, you may find it absurd, but I happen to think it's a perfect way to set the grid for the big race. I guess you failed to comprehend the pupose of the event schedule, but it's mostly my fault since I didn't write my usual exhaustive explanations in the sign-up thread.

Basically the warm-up session is not a competitive race, not by any means. It is merely intended to be a 10 minute warm-up session, for people to work on their laps, get the hang of the car, and learn where the pit entrance is and so on. The point of it is that if people are comfortable in the car and have a sense of where the trouble-spots are in terms of braking zones for tight corners, then they are less likely to accidentally corn-hole other drivers in those tight corners when we are actually racing for position.

The 2-lap qualifying race is intended to be just that, a competitive race to determine the grid for the big 1/2 hr. race. The reason I have it set to 'reverse rating' (not 'reverse last results') for the start of the qualifying race is indeed to force the better drivers to have to race through the pack. The purpose of this is two-fold; one is to mix up the starting grid of the big race, so that it is not always the top-rated drivers up front every time, race in, race out. And secondly to allow people to race aggressively, in a no-holds-barred fashion, at least once during the evening's event, since a bit of damage, or even a huge mistake is not the end of your night, rather it just means you will end up in a worse spot on the grid than you had perhaps hoped.

And I will not have random grids for a long, 1/2 hr race, especially in a season format. Personally, I would prefer a standard qualifying session of some kind, for example the setup they have in MotoGP2 was ideal. But lacking any such feature in ToCA, I came up with a compromise, which frankly I think is a very good solution to the problem. Yes it's a bit crazy and weird, but it's the best solution I could come up with, and I don't think I am the only one who likes it.

Terry, I hope you still had enough fun to consider joining us again sometime, in fact I was hoping you'd be interested in the season. It's great having you there running your laps, and the longer format, with the admittedly silly mandatory pit stop, provides for some interesting racing, at least I tend to think so. I would love to have you involved every time.

As to chicanes and cutting corners, basically I think a circuit like Surfer's Paradise, since it is entirely walled, is pretty much up for whatever line you can get through there. Those two corners with grass in them, I would prefer people not cut, but the chicanes, like Terry said, have tar inside them, so I never really considered those to be 'cuttable;' basically any way you can get through should be fair. And ultimately, there is no way anyone can enforce any rules or regulations; drivers have to go by the honor system, which means if you see someone cutting a big-time chicane, call him out. And try not to take advantage of such cheats yourself. If you can't seem to do that consistently, then eventually you will become noticed by someone out there enough times that you will not be allowed to race with us anymore. But of course, occasionally people cut corners or chicanes completely accidentally. I figure you can go ahead and do what you want if no one is around to see it, but I for one always drive the chicanes (like the ones at Oulton Park Long and Nurburgring), even if it means I get T-boned or passed every time. I would hope those who are willing to run the long races would feel the same way, but if not, there's really nothing I can do until it becomes a pattern or a problem.
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TCrouch
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Post by TCrouch »

Failed to comprehend? Whoa, now I'm stupid I guess. No, I comprehend just fine. I just don't think it's a good system.

And whatever you guys want to call it, forcing aggressive driving in an artificially-created "close" environment for a 2 lap sprint isn't anything but creating a clusterf*ck of cars all bashing for position.

And the "random" comment was intended for the 2 lap sprint. Not the 19 lapper. Then you'd have the mix of fast guys and slow guys without having a 100% slower-to-faster progression, creating a huge bottleneck in the center. If that's the intention, so be it.

Not my cup of tea, but you guys are certainly entitled to run anything the way you want. Whether I comprehend it or not.
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Post by Blublub »

I'm new to all this and wasn't aware there was a "no cutting" rule in effect last night. I think this (and other ground rules) do need to be made clear before we hit any new track.
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Post by Slumberland »

I knew that choice of phrase was going to cause problems. :?
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Post by webdanzer »

Yeah, me too, slumber. 'Fail to comprehend' generally has negative connotations....

I *Think* all Zepp meant, Terry, is that from your first post here, you mistakenly thought that the qualifying grid was set by reverse finishes in the warm-up race.

Anyway, Slumber, still sorry for that late sideswipe on you that cost you at least my position. I was actually steering away from you to avoid contact and that fishtail slammed you.

My bad, and sorry!
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Post by Slumberland »

No problem, Web. It was actually the lap traffic that caused me the most problems. We hit that pocket of traffic at the same time, and while you managed to scoot through, I had to slow down a bit to keep it clean. Otherwise I think I could have at least stayed on your tail.
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Zeppo
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Post by Zeppo »

Whoa, Terry, I'm not saying you're stupid. I mean c'mon man.

What I am saying is that I understood that you were under the impression that the 10 minute warm-up session was some sort of a race, and that the finishing positions in that race had some sort of importance. Your statements about busting your ass in the warm-up session, and concerns about sandbagging in the warm-up session are what led me to that conclusion. If I misinterpereted them, then I apologize, and I assure you no ill-intent was meant by my response.

The 10 minute session is intended to be a warm-up session, where drivers can run laps on their own, without having to deal with traffic, or worrying about ruining their night with one early mistake. The thinking is that once that is done, the qualiifying race will be a little more mistake-free, since drivers are already comfortable in the vehicles and familiar with the circuit.

I'm sorry you do not like my Medium Length Race format. I was hoping that it would be more to your liking than the usual, 3 lap sprints.

And let me be clear, if everyone or anyone else agrees with Terry that my event schedule and grid-determination system is not effective or fun, then please let me know, and we can try to figure out something that works better. I just want to make a race format that is fun and fair, and leads to something a little more interesting than the usual random grid, 3-lap online races.
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Post by Spooky »

Whatever the end result is for these medium length races, I am sure that we can all come to it in a civil and friendly manner. Why all the hostility?
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Post by Granatofan »

Zep,

For what it's worth I don't care about the starting position on the qualifying run. For me personally all I try and do is improve my finish position so if I am 9th on the grid I try to finish eigth. Last night I qualified last due mainly to 3 smacks into walls and I was just trying to finish the main in 10th. Personally I feel uneasy on the qualifying grid because I am usually in the first five and know better skilled and more aggressive drivers are feeling held up by my corners (I tend to brake early) and it is causing some less than clean racing.

My opinion would be to set the qualifying grid by highest ranking first (actually I don't think that is an option) or random. I don't feel I have any advantage by getting a good qualifying spot or even getting a good main race grid spot. Ultimately in a half hour race my lack of smoothness and familiarity with racing is going to show up and I'm going to fall back. I rarely try and fight for position to pass people because I'm afraid of crashing both of us so I wait for a mistake and then slip by. I don't know how the other average to below average guys feel, but this is my .02.

If you don't change the rules it doesn't matter either. It isn't going to drive me away because the race is too much fun, but in reality racers qualify alone on the track without interference from back markers like me. I don't feel it's fair to make these guys have to figure a way around us in a 3 minute race for pole.

Ted

P.S. Terry I hope you stay in the weekly sessions. In the half hour races my goal is to not get lapped twice by you.
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Post by TCrouch »

Zep, it's not the long race that I don't like. Matter of fact, there isn't much about it that is off. You didn't misunderstand my original question, but the end result was the same. You'll still have fast guys in the back in the qualifying race.

And Spook...any time it feels like somebody is insulting my intelligence (as like it or not, "you failed to comprehend" is 99.9% of the time intended as an insult), I'm going to probably be a bit less than pleasant. If that wasn't Zeppo's intent, so be it. I figured I knew him a little better than that, but it was still a strange choice of words. I chalked it up to him being insulted that I didn't like his system and fired back, I have no idea. Either way, it's his system. I don't have to like it, and it's not like there's a lot of stuff wrong with it. I'm honestly not sure I'd change it even if I could. From my perspective, something else is better. Typically, a "qual" session is just that...fastest guys start up front in the race. In a 2 lapper with reverse, it just doesn't happen that way. You spend most of the time fighting through slower traffic, and end up spread out anyway. Why not scrap the qual altogether? It's rather artificial in how it is anyway, but if it was "my" perfect way (higher ranking=front), then it would be screwed for the other guys. I know that if me, or anybody "like me", gets the pole and gets past that first corner, it's checkout time for the most part. That's no fun for the other guys. It's a tough thing to nail down.

So bottom line Zeppo, it's your system. That's why you started it, and I don't know of any "fix all" that works for everybody. Either way, it's probably best for the group. I'm so sucked up in racing, I completely devote myself to figuring any racing game out that can be run online. I live it, breathe it, and dream about it. I tend to figure it out in a hurry, and then it tends to be boring for other people. There's a reason I took a long break (other than CoH). There's a reason I plug in a wheel instead of what I'm "used to", and faster with. It's almost a self-handicapping system of sorts.

The only thing that made me babble in the first place was I drove quite a bit "unlike myself" in the 2 lapper. I didn't deliberately hit anybody, but I didn't really give a s*** what happened if I had 2 laps to go from 11th to 1st at a track like that. That in itself made me question how it worked, but I'm also allergic to just laying back...even if in the grand scheme of things the 2 lapper didn't matter. I'm quite certain I could have started 11th in the race, and 19 laps later, been in the same position.

So basically...in a nutshell...nevermind? I have no idea what the hell I was thinking, and I guess it's really a moot point. The system is what it is, and it's probably best for the group.

Sometimes I have trouble grasping the concept that the world does not revolve around me...even in a racing game :wink:
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Zeppo
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Post by Zeppo »

Terry, please, I never meant to insult you. I hope you understand that. It was a poor choice of words, and I apologize for giving the sense that I was trying to insult you. I'm sorry.

And yes, I am a little sensetive about my little system, which frankly is a ludicrous frame of mind to be in. Really, all I am trying to achieve is a way to mix up the starting grid without resorting to random grid placement, to try to make sure it's not always the best drivers at the front, and yet make sure that the grid spot that one gets has been earned, one way or the other, by the driver.

I so wish there were a way to do a qualifying session, as there is in MotoGP2. But I think you hit the nail on the head in your post, Terry, when you said it's a tough nut to crack; the best drivers are pretty much gone after the first 1/2 lap if they start up front. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that if the case were a grid in order of ranking, the finish would be identical to the starting grid. My ideal starting grid for the long race would be 'reverse ranking,' in order to force the better drivers to have to climb through the field. I think that would lead to more unpredictable races, and more interesting racing, as it would slow down the better drivers and give their competitors a better chance to gain ground.

I think the 2-lapper is definitely crazy; but that was partly the intention. Like i said somewhere, I thought it would be good to let people drive a little more crazy, a little more aggressively, at some point in the evening, to get that kind of stuff out of them. So the contrast between the quali and the race is deliberate. I'm just not entirely sure it's appropriate.

The first race we did was at Brand's Hatch Indy in the GT Lights, and I screwed up with the instructions to James_E, and somehow I ended up on the first row, even though I had fninshed the 2-lapper in 5th or 6th. Anyway, I got away clean, James was ahead of me for a big chunk of the race, but he went off one too many times, and I ended up winning. But I never really saw 3rd place during the entire race. PK was blowing away my lap times in the other sessions, but in the race, after that first corner when James and I got away clean, I never saw him again. So you can imagine how I felt: we had run the quali session, where I finished 5 or 6, and yet I win the big race, solely because I got off the line clean, and never had to deal with any traffic. It was, for me, a big let-down, even though I won the race, because I felt I didn't deserve it.

Anyway, the point is I want to figure out a way to have a long race where the best drivers aren't guaranteed a spot in the front, yet aren't forced to be in the back, a system where all drivers know they can earn a spot in the front in some sort of qualifying session.
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Post by TCrouch »

Personally, I think the reverse ratings should apply to the real race.

5 or whatever lap warmup.

Then the better guys start in the back, and actually have time to pick off drivers. This would A) show the slower guys what a clean pass is, and how it's executed, and B) let the faster guys who aren't accustomed to driving in traffic much get more experience at it. So if it was up to me, I'd ditch the qual altogether and put the guys in the back...but give them time to work through the traffic.
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XXXIV
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Post by XXXIV »

:D......Sounds Like I missed one hell of a time.

I hate to sound like a fence sitter but anyway you guys decide to handle qualifying is cool with me.

Ive been on both sides of the bumper car action...I never intentionall hit anyone and I dont think anyone from here has intentionally hit me....knowing that is part of the game is enogh for me....

You could always turn off the collisions but the danger is half the fun
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Post by Fshguy »

Zeppo:

Please put me down for the season. Normally, I'll be up for racing every week.
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