The E3 Thread Jun 2-4

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:21 pm

Super Mario Galaxy 2 and the Metroid whatever are due out in 2010.

Didn't catch the Sony presser, but not much surprised me. $250 for the PSP Go! is bad bad bad. Good luck with that one Sony!

I think the motion controls for both MS and Sony are at least a year off, so I think it's way too early to comment on either one. Although, I'd give the nod to MS as of right now.

Can't wait for Uncharted 2, but GOW3 doesn't really interest me. I wish it did.

I think I'm slowly falling in to the less hard core camp, aka Nintendo. I'm more enthusiastic about trying Wii Fit Plus, Wii Sports Resort, SMG2, and whatever looks like it doesn't suck from Nintendo than I am with some of MS and Sony's big titles.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:24 pm

What's the release of GT5? Did Sony make any announcements about this game?

Nothing about a PS3 price break? WTF?!?!?!?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Spooky wrote:I have no doubt there will be a boxing game that will utilize the motion plus feature well. It's a no brainer. I betcha anything that EA has a Fight Night in the works for the motion plus.

That would be nirvana for me. My first launch day purchase of a video game in about five years!

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:39 pm

Spooky wrote:
pk500 wrote:Nintendo can bore itself all the way to the bank, considering it dominates the sales charts. Somebody out there must like the Big N's stuff.

The new Wii Fit Plus and Metroid games will fly off the shelves. The pulse detector looks odd, but I like the Wii MotionPlus add-on. It should address some of the motion-detection accuracy issues present in many current Wii sports games.

If Wii MotionPlus could recognize punches in a boxing game instantly, I would buy that game in a nano-second. There's way too much lag between your physical movement and the action on the screen in Wii Sports boxing and Punch-Out, which hurts both games for me.

The upcoming Gladiator title for Wii is supposed to use Wii MotionPlus, which could make that a really cool, violent fighting game with a historic theme. Definitely not one for the kiddies.

Take care,
PK
I have no doubt there will be a boxing game that will utilize the motion plus feature well. It's a no brainer. I betcha anything that EA has a Fight Night in the works for the motion plus.

It's not just the input device.

It's what they do with the input. In most games, it's just triggering a precanned animation somewhere, just as when you do button presses with traditional controllers.

Madden with the Motion Plus or the 3D camera isn't going to be different. It's not going to track your motion, it's going to use your motion to call up the mocap animations they put on disc.

That is why the response is slow.

The FN4 demo looked responsive. Maybe they're using real-time physics instead of motion-captured animations. That should mean no two punches or blows are identical.

But that's not likely.

Games built around these devices have to scrap mocap entirely and try to render exactly what you're doing. Short of that, they're not going to be as responsive.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:20 pm

Very cool development for GT5: The game will include official WRC and NASCAR Sprint Cup licenses. I must admit, Indy looks gorgeous in the video below:

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l2uQ2ayvvWY&co ... edded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

Take care,
PK

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:57 pm

The head-scratcher was Sony starting their presser by talking about the PS2 outselling all consoles, then announcing 100 new PS2 titles to be released this year. The sales figures aren't new, but it's odd to kick off E3 with ps2 talk. Granted most the games could be crap, but why tout the ps2 is getting more game support than the ps3 this year?

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:36 pm

wco81 wrote:Games built around these devices have to scrap mocap entirely and try to render exactly what you're doing. Short of that, they're not going to be as responsive.

Absolutely untrue. Without mo-capped characters, there is no way that the swing is 1:1 without any lag with the Wii Motion Plus.....

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:09 pm

Huh? If you want 1:1, doesn't that mean that someone who doesn't play much golf, tennis or have boxed would have their poor mechanics shown on screen?

When they motion-capture the form of pro athletes to make animations for these games, they have textbook form, do they not?

So those animations are not at all representative of an average video gamer's form.

The mocap animations obviously look better and people don't want to play video games and have their character look bad.

But that by definition is not 1:1.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:11 pm

wco81 wrote:Huh? If you want 1:1, doesn't that mean that someone who doesn't play much golf, tennis or have boxed would have their poor mechanics shown on screen?

When they motion-capture the form of pro athletes to make animations for these games, they have textbook form, do they not?

So those animations are not at all representative of an average video gamer's form.

The mocap animations obviously look better and people don't want to play video games and have their character look bad.

But that by definition is not 1:1.

HUH?

You can't do 1:1 movements WITHOUT motion capture of some kind. If you make a goofy swing with the Wii Motion Plus with TW10, the swing will be captured on the screen. This could not be done without motion capture....

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:20 pm

I'm talking about motion capture that occurs at the studios.

You know the ones that EA and other studios tout in their PR and "Making of" videos, where they have pro athletes put on body suits with ping pong balls at various points.

And then they use that data -- which is more detailed because they track the articulation of limbs, not just the movement of the accelerometer in the controls, which is just one sample point -- to create animations for the game.

What the Wii controllers do may be better characterized as "motion tracking."

But are you saying the Wii version of Tiger 10 has no precanned animations? That it renders your bad swings and never shows a Tiger Woods swing?

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:24 pm

wco81 wrote:
But are you saying the Wii version of Tiger 10 has no precanned animations? That it renders your bad swings and never shows a Tiger Woods swing?

That is what I saw in February....

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:38 pm

Natal 'hands-on':
E3 2009: I've Played Natal and it Works
Hands-on... or is it body-on...? Maybe body-off? Whatever, Burnout and Ricochet use it and it works.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/989/989269p1.html

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:53 pm

I haven't seen Natal yet but the Sony one certainly showed 1:1, especially in a disembodied set of virtual hands.

But there's a difference between a tech demo and what's possible on paper and what a developer will do with the tech to make games that sell.

The guy was missing a lot of swings initially. Imagine if they did sports games that way where the learning curve was that steep rather than pick-up-and-play simple like Wii Sports.

Then not only mastering the basic moves, refining your form over time.

People want to pull off the feats and moves of Nadal, Tiger, Lebron, etc. They don't want to see their awkward form, even if it's more realistic and arguably more immersive.

So a company which licenses these sports figures are going to try to put in signature moves and so forth which are recognizable.

The Wii Sports Resort 3-point shooting contest obviously isn't 1:1. It's recognizing gestures and using animation with better form than that which most gamers can muster.

GameSeven · Post by **GameSeven** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:10 pm

Another Natal Op piece: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/06/project-natal/

As for the whole debate of 1:1 mapping, it will be natural for the market place and the consumer to seek to find the right balance of precision versus entertainment.

After all, finding a virtual golf ball without some real world feedback too tell if I am too high or low, etc. would hardly be anyone's idea of fun. On the other hand, allowing for the possibility of such precision is desirable as other game experiences could benefit from this. I was particularly impressed with the painting demo for Natal and while sloppy, it definitely showed promised. The voice recognition was a nice plus, too.

On the other hand, I think some are being particularly foolish regarding the concept. One site I just read likened a futuristic Donkey Kong to an aerobic effort where you ape running around your room climbing ladders. I think for such simple controls if the precision allows for a 'virtual' controller, this is the way the device could be utilized.

While I bought into the novelty of the Wii and have underwhelmed by *most* of it's usage, I am intrigued by the next round of these systems and eagerly await to see how they evolve.

ansonlee · Post by **ansonlee** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:33 pm

For the non techy gamer like me natal looks cool. I don't care what 1:1 is as long as the thing works. Im sure for sports games they still allow the controller option. Why the hell did I just buy a ps3 for

. Thing just became the atari 5200 after this e3. Ps3 fanboys are running for the hills.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:46 pm

ansonlee wrote:Why the hell did I just buy a ps3 for . Thing just became the atari 5200 after this e3. Ps3 fanboys are running for the hills.

Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch? What were you expecting Sony to do? They announced a new motion controller and several new games. It's on par with the other 2 console makers.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:49 pm

What's the exact release of Natal? Gotta believe it's going to be some time before we see games that take advantage of this technology.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:51 pm

No release date was given although i'll hedge a bet for a 2009 holiday release.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:57 pm

Rodster wrote:No release date was given although i'll hedge a bet for a 2009 holiday release.

I suspect the hardware could be ready by that point, but no games will be. MS announced during their press conference that they were sending out dev kits that same day. No way 3rd party devs can whip something up in 5 months, and given that MS didn't show any actual games other than demos, they don't seem to have anything ready for 2009 either.

I guess theoretically MS could release Natal and games like Forza 3 could tack-on Natal based control, but I think MS would want to launch this thing with some more specialized software ready to fully exploit the hardware.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:05 pm

Based on what they showed I would be really, really surprised if Natal is out this time next year; I don't think that companies outside the Microsoft studios have any sort of dev kits, and they can't make it fly without third party support; otherwise, it is just an expensive option like the existing camera.

I figure both Natal and the Playstation air-traffic wands are holiday '10 at best.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:18 pm

Who knows when there will actually be good games using Natal, but the fact that MS is making such a big deal about it means this is not just some passing fancy that may or may not see the light of day. I remember back when the Wii was announced. A lot of people really poo-pooed the idea of the control scheme and said it would never work well, and even that the Wii would be a total commercial flop. Well, tens of millions of Wii's sold later and dozens of top-notch games later, the Wii and its control scheme are going strong. It's also getting better with the Wii MotionPlus. I think Natal looks pretty cool and I am sure that it will only improve as time goes along. Seeing how EA has stepped up to the plate with some of its Wii sports games I can only think they will do some fantastic things with Natal. It may be a bit of a wait since things are only getting under way, but 2010 should see some really neat titles using Natal.

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:44 pm

Rodster wrote:
ansonlee wrote:Why the hell did I just buy a ps3 for . Thing just became the atari 5200 after this e3. Ps3 fanboys are running for the hills.
Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch? What were you expecting Sony to do? They announced a new motion controller and several new games. It's on par with the other 2 console makers.

I've been unimpressed by E3 in general this year. Nothing blows me away. I fear like a few other said here, I may becoming a casual player. I neither have the time or interest in playing as much as I used to.

I'm diggin' the 'time wasters' like games from the app store on iPhone.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:57 pm

Murph wrote:
Rodster wrote:
ansonlee wrote:Why the hell did I just buy a ps3 for . Thing just became the atari 5200 after this e3. Ps3 fanboys are running for the hills.
Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch? What were you expecting Sony to do? They announced a new motion controller and several new games. It's on par with the other 2 console makers.
I've been unimpressed by E3 in general this year. Nothing blows me away. I fear like a few other said here, I may becoming a casual player. I neither have the time or interest in playing as much as I used to.

I'm diggin' the 'time wasters' like games from the app store on iPhone.

I'm reverting back to my PC roots with Flight and Racing sims. But to the previous point about tossing away his PS3 because of E3, I think that is premature. I have owned every single machine since they were released so that way if I want to play a must have game i'm covered. The problem is i'm starting to wean myself away from that as I rediscovered gaming on the PC.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:37 pm

EZSnappin wrote:Based on what they showed I would be really, really surprised if Natal is out this time next year; I don't think that companies outside the Microsoft studios have any sort of dev kits, and they can't make it fly without third party support; otherwise, it is just an expensive option like the existing camera.

I figure both Natal and the Playstation air-traffic wands are holiday '10 at best.

I thought I read Natal is to be out later this year.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:15 pm

greggsand wrote:
EZSnappin wrote:I figure both Natal and the Playstation air-traffic wands are holiday '10 at best.
I thought I read Natal is to be out later this year.

According to 1up, "Microsoft's revelation of Project Natal at their E3 press conference was missing any details on a release date, or even a release window."

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174509

Naples (posting just before me) said development kits shipped to third parties the same day as the press conference.