wco81 wrote:I heard that the names are based on hearsay from trainers?
It's not like they have pharmacy receipts as in the case of a few players?
If the documentation is flimsy, it's total BS to out players.
Very unlikely. If the documentation was insufficient, both Mitchell and MLB would be subject to billions of dollars' worth of defamation of character lawsuits.
Mitchell is an esteemed lawyer and the chairman of a global law firm. This isn't some paralegal doing a witch hunt.
Take care,
PK
I was flipping through the PDF. There are copies of cancelled checks and shipping waybills. The checks are incriminating because many of them are in amounts of $1600, which was the cost of a single kit of HGH. But there are a few guys who are just accused without evidence, and who maybe took steroids a few times but weren't habitual users.
The Clemens section is pretty bad though. He looks like he's up to his butt chin in no good.
I'd like to know who produced the "false" list earlier this morning. The media here in St. Louis and on message boards everywhere was dragging Pujols name through the mud. And to list Daryl Kile on the list was disgusting. Whomever put out this supposed list should be fired!
Baseball fans didn't want a recommendation on what the NFL SHOULD ALREADY BE F'N DOING.
The NFL has to laughing at baseball right now. Travis Henry inhales second hand Marijuana smoke and gets targetted by the NFL police. Anyone that gives Goodell a crooked eye gets an invitation to his office.
The most sacred records in baseball and we get baseball saying, "Well what can we do about it?"
The significance of this is simply, the most sacred records in baseball will stand a testament to the corruption of the league in the 90 and early 2000. Bonds, McGquire and Sosa by being on the records book, stand as and the scarlett letter "A" on MLBs chest for every baseball fan to see. It stands a sign that baseball was unwilling to address the problem for economical reasons. And that even after knowing the problem failed to address the problems.
Bond's records in the ultimate case of irony, will be the stain that tells future baseball fans, writers and players that this era was corrupt. Let it stain Bud Selig's mark on baseball. Let the records stand so they will stain baseball forever.
And the Mitchell Report is worthless.
Last edited by JRod on Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://sensiblecoasters.wordpress.com/][b]Sensible Coasters - A critique of sports games, reviews, gaming sites and news. Questionably Proofread![/b][/url]
I think you guys missed Manny Alexander who was with the Red Sox when he was caught with Roids. How about Gagne and Donnelly? Mo Vaughn? Jeremy Giambi? Josias Manzanillo? Paxton Crawford? Mike Spinelli?
greggsand wrote:So does the fact that McGwire "escapes" the Mitchell report strengthens his HOF chances? Interesting...
ESPN said that there are 3500 players that have played baseball over the last 10 years. This report names like 80 players which comes out to less then 2 percent. Remember to institute testing more then 5 percent of players had to have positive tests a few years ago so more players are out there then this report states.
greggsand wrote:So does the fact that McGwire "escapes" the Mitchell report strengthens his HOF chances? Interesting...
How can you keep him out? He's never been caught taking anything other than andro, which was legal. He's not being investigated. Same goes for Sosa, he is mentioned once in the Mitchell report and has never been proven of doing anything except corking his bat, which is the batter's equivalent of a spitball. There's reason to suspect them, but there's not really any proof.
Bonds is a different story since there is a grand jury investigation into perjury, which could lead to proof he took steroids. But without that proof, what can you do? I don't like that these guys are doing this s***, but I also don't records removed because of suspicions or circumstantial evidence.
And what about Clemens and Petite? Should all their Yankee wins be forfeited? If you want to erase records, you can erase wins too. I would much rather see baseball move forward and try and learn from this f*** than hope into a Back to the Future DeLorean and try and fix what happened in the past.
Brando70 wrote:How can you keep him out? He's never been caught taking anything other than andro, which was legal. He's not being investigated. Same goes for Sosa, he is mentioned once in the Mitchell report and has never been proven of doing anything except corking his bat, which is the batter's equivalent of a spitball. There's reason to suspect them, but there's not really any proof.
Bonds is a different story since there is a grand jury investigation into perjury, which could lead to proof he took steroids. But without that proof, what can you do? I don't like that these guys are doing this s***, but I also don't records removed because of suspicions or circumstantial evidence.
And what about Clemens and Petite? Should all their Yankee wins be forfeited? If you want to erase records, you can erase wins too. I would much rather see baseball move forward and try and learn from this f*** than hope into a Back to the Future DeLorean and try and fix what happened in the past.
Voting someone into the hall of fame is subjective. It's not like you need to prove someone cheated in the court of law to justify not voting someone into the hall of fame.
If I was a voter, and I reasonably believed someone repeatedly took steroids over an extended period of time in violation of the rules of the game and laws of the United States, I wouldn't vote for them to be admitted into the hall of fame.
As for erasing records, as others have said, the cat is out of the bag. Too little too late.
greggsand wrote:So does the fact that McGwire "escapes" the Mitchell report strengthens his HOF chances? Interesting...
How can you keep him out? He's never been caught taking anything other than andro, which was legal. He's not being investigated. Same goes for Sosa, he is mentioned once in the Mitchell report and has never been proven of doing anything except corking his bat, which is the batter's equivalent of a spitball. There's reason to suspect them, but there's not really any proof.
You can keep him out by not voting for him like, uh, last year.
greggsand wrote:So does the fact that McGwire "escapes" the Mitchell report strengthens his HOF chances? Interesting...
ESPN said that there are 3500 players that have played baseball over the last 10 years. This report names like 80 players which comes out to less then 2 percent. Remember to institute testing more then 5 percent of players had to have positive tests a few years ago so more players are out there then this report states.
Zlax makes a VERY good point here.
One of the dangers of this report is that there's a good chunk of the gullible, ignorant American public who will believe that these are the only players who were using steroids because they were the only ones named.
Truth is, this is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. If you think McGwire and Sosa are clean because they weren't in this report, well, maybe there is a chance China could win an award from the Sierra Club as the cleanest, least-polluting nation on Earth after all.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
Are there supposed to be any follow up investigations, or is this it? I agree it's clearly a sacrificial list. The abuses were certainly much, much more widespread.
greggsand wrote:So does the fact that McGwire "escapes" the Mitchell report strengthens his HOF chances? Interesting...
ESPN said that there are 3500 players that have played baseball over the last 10 years. This report names like 80 players which comes out to less then 2 percent. Remember to institute testing more then 5 percent of players had to have positive tests a few years ago so more players are out there then this report states.
If you think McGwire and Sosa are clean because they weren't in this report, well, maybe there is a chance China could win an award from the Sierra Club as the cleanest, least-polluting nation on Earth after all.
Take care,
PK
Yeah yeah yeah, BUT some writers held-off on McGwire for HOF because they figured there HAD TO BE a "smoking gun" somewhere that was going to validate their decision to not vote for him. It's looking less likely that will ever happen. Therefore, will that change their attitude?? I say, "probably"....
greggsand wrote:
Yeah yeah yeah, BUT some writers held-off on McGwire for HOF because they figured there HAD TO BE a "smoking gun" somewhere that was going to validate their decision to not vote for him. It's looking less likely that will ever happen. Therefore, will that change their attitude?? I say, "probably"....
I think pleading the 5th when directly questioned by members of Congress was the smoking gun in the eyes of most people.
This whole thing just makes me sad. I grew up with baseball as my favorite sport. During the summers I'd play 5 days a week for hours each day. If there wern't enough players for a game of streetball, a few of us would bike over to the school and play strikout against the brick wall.
I love the game too much to be able to just say "screw it". I Do care, and I hate that these selfish, cheating, a-holes decided to disgrace a game I love so much. But the smell of spring and sense of "that time of year" will always get my blood flowing back to baseball. Only now, when I go though my cards with my son, I'll wonder which stats are really honest, and which ones are tainted. In a way, they will all be tainted, because o one but God knows for sure who did what and when.
Damn the ones who cheated. I just hope that somehow the sport gets cleaned up, and fast. As of this season there could still be a good number of guys using illegal substances like HGH annd going undetected.
greggsand wrote:
Yeah yeah yeah, BUT some writers held-off on McGwire for HOF because they figured there HAD TO BE a "smoking gun" somewhere that was going to validate their decision to not vote for him. It's looking less likely that will ever happen. Therefore, will that change their attitude?? I say, "probably"....
I think pleading the 5th when directly questioned by members of Congress was the smoking gun in the eyes of most people.
Exactly.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
Is it possible for Bud Selig to buy a decent suit? F*ck, he's a multimillionaire, and he always shows up at press conference podiums wearing a sport coat that looks like it just came off the rack at a Salvation Army thrift store.
Oh, and Bud isn't going to give players a 24-hour warning before steroid tests. There's decisive action for you. What iron will to rid the game of drugs.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
greggsand wrote:
Yeah yeah yeah, BUT some writers held-off on McGwire for HOF because they figured there HAD TO BE a "smoking gun" somewhere that was going to validate their decision to not vote for him. It's looking less likely that will ever happen. Therefore, will that change their attitude?? I say, "probably"....
I think pleading the 5th when directly questioned by members of Congress was the smoking gun in the eyes of most people.
Exactly.
Take care,
PK
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The fans? Yes, it prob did confirm suspicions, but HOF will ultimately see it differently.
the website that put out the original list is sticking to their story. They had 2 sources who confirmed the lists. They are saying the received an early draft of the report. Me thinks Mitchell took out the names that he didn't have more complete evidence against, ie: cancelled checks, money orders, fed ex receipts.
I'm still suprised in all of these years, nothing has ever leaked about Sammy Sosa. It appears evident that he has always been a user, but outside of his body, there hasn't been any physical or even circustantial evidence.
On another note, former Cub broadcaster and Score 670 radio baseball analyst Steve Stone has always maintained outside of steroids and HGH, the primary drug problem in baseball was amphetimines. baseball clubhouses are known to overflow with them. Leaded and unleaded coffee pots. big bowls of pills that players who had been out all night and having a hard time recovering for the next days games. He points out players that are easy to spot are the short tempered guys who always are arguing with the umps over the simplest of calls. He also claims these also run rampant in hockey clubhouses, which is why you have so many fights, and fidgety players during the national anthem.
