OT: NBA 2005-2006 Season Discussion

[Leebo33]

Man, I envy Pistons fans. What a fun team to watch. They can beat you in so many ways on both ends of the court.

BTW, what in the heck is up with LeBron's fingernail chewing? Does he do it that much in the regular season? I haven't paid that much attention to it.

[reeche]

BTW, what in the heck is up with LeBron's fingernail chewing? Does he do it that much in the regular season?

Yeah he does. The sportsguy is always giving him crap about it. I'm glad Lebron got his first taste of the playoffs. He's the future so it's nice to see him take his first steps in the playoffs and perform well. That being said, this series is no contest. They really aren't much of a team outside of Lebron. I've never really felt Larry Hughes was a player capable of elevating his game consistently to that next level. The Cavs are more a collection of individual parts rather than an actual team.

[Inuyasha]

The Suns winning still doesn't disprove that the NBA has the worst officating amongst the major sports.

As for Kobe, I heard a good analysis he tanked the 2nd half of game 7 since he didnt want to take all the blame on that loss. It was clear Kobe had to take over that game 7 for even a shot to win. Again, He had to make the decision to take the game over. But 3 shots, give me a break. The sportsreporters on espn said that MJ would have fought to the end even in a blowout like game 7. Kobe is nowhere close to a Mj but more like a Tracy Mcgrady.

If Kobe was on the Suns would the Suns have had a #2 seed in the playoffs? Absolutely not. Kobe is still about Kobe and not about making the team around him better. Once he can realize that, maybe he can lead a team.

[reeche]

The Suns winning still doesn't disprove that the NBA has the worst officating amongst the major sports.

And you saying it doesn't prove it either. Nor your planned and managed series comments earlier in the thread. I guess the refs lost the script and decided to ignore the secret commands they had been given.

[AJColossal]

The sportsreporters on espn said that MJ would have fought to the end even in a blowout like game 7.

Hopefully, this marks a definitive end to the MJ/Kobe comparisons.

Kobe doesn't have heart. Forget the second half of game 7, can you see Michael Jordan getting clothes-lined, and not getting up and going buckwild? Kobe had no reaction.

Jordan would cut your head off to beat you at Scrabble. Kobe seemed like he didn't care enough to help his team while losing the 7th game of a playoff series. Unbelievable.

[Kazuya]

The sportsreporters on espn said that MJ would have fought to the end even in a blowout like game 7.

Hopefully, this marks a definitive end to the MJ/Kobe comparisons.

Kobe doesn't have heart. Forget the second half of game 7, can you see Michael Jordan getting clothes-lined, and not getting up and going buckwild? Kobe had no reaction.

Jordan would cut your head off to beat you at Scrabble. Kobe seemed like he didn't care enough to help his team while losing the 7th game of a playoff series. Unbelievable.

Please. The worst player on Jordan's bench was infintely better than anyone on the Lakers roster sans Odom and Kobe. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with. I guess delusional Jordan jockers think Jordan would have won 10 titles in a row with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown in the lineup. Classic.

The same people who called Kobe selfish for scoring 81 points in a game where he actually *needed* to score 81 for his team win (the rest of the team shot 33%) now criticize Kobe for sticking to the game plan and not trying to score 81. But when you're a delusional Jordan jocker, I guess it makes sense... they probably have t-shitrts commemorating Jordan's playoff record 63 against the Celtics (a Bulls loss of course). Or maybe they've just re-wrote history so that the Bulls won that game...

[AJColossal]

Take a deep breath. All I said was that Kobe is not the competitor Jordan was.

Why does everyone argue this bullshit as if their lives depended on it?

[Kazuya]

Take a deep breath.

No thanks... I'm wearing one of those breathe right strips right now, so I'm breathing just fine...

All I said was that Kobe is not the competitor Jordan was.

Nonsense. Revisionist history and Jordan Jockerism. Kobe is just as competitive, which *is* saying a lot since Jordan was also super-competitive.

Why does everyone argue this bullshit as if their lives depended on it?

I barely formulated even a minimal argument... I coulda easily gone much deeper with the numerous times Jordan mailed it in or got demoralized on the floor, or numerous other antics. Game 7 1990 Eastern Conference Finals, anyone?

[reeche]

Please. The worst player on Jordan's bench was infintely better than anyone on the Lakers roster sans Odom and Kobe. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with. I guess delusional Jordan jockers think Jordan would have won 10 titles in a row with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown in the lineup. Classic.

The same people who called Kobe selfish for scoring 81 points in a game where he actually *needed* to score 81 for his team win (the rest of the team shot 33%) now criticize Kobe for sticking to the game plan and not trying to score 81. But when you're a delusional Jordan jocker, I guess it makes sense... they probably have t-shitrts commemorating Jordan's playoff record 63 against the Celtics (a Bulls loss of course). Or maybe they've just re-wrote history so that the Bulls won that game...

What he said. The Jordan talk also gets on my nerves. (Also the revisionist history and ignoring of favorable calls for him and bulls) I've never heard Kobe compare himself to Jordan. It tends to come most from disgruntled Jordan fans who make the comparison then only to knock Kobe in the next sentence. Nobody says he's Jordan. Nor did he mail it in on Saturday imo. Because a guy doesn't win the same number of titles as Jordan doesn't necessarily mean he lacks heart. In that instance then Jordan lacks heart because he didn't win as many titles as Russell.

[Leebo33]

I've never heard Kobe compare himself to Jordan. It tends to come most from disgruntled Jordan fans who make the comparison then only to knock Kobe in the next sentence.

I agree. Plus, Kobe had 3 titles and an additional Finals appearance prior to the age that MJ won his first. I wouldn't bet against him winning 1-3 more before he retires. I think he's doing OK for himself even if he isn't as great as Jordan (who will be?) when everything is said and done.

I pretty much hate the Lakers so I was glad to see Kobe and Shaq split up. I thought the Lakers made the wrong choice at the time, but I'm amazed at what Kobe has accomplished with the clowns on the Lakers sharing the court with him the past couple years.

[dbdynsty25]

Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with.

I agree with you about how competitve Kobe is, but how many all-star games did Harper, Kukoc, Grant and Armstrong make it to? That was a horrible arguement.

[Kazuya]

Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with.

I agree with you about how competitve Kobe is, but how many all-star games did Harper, Kukoc, Grant and Armstrong make it to? That was a horrible arguement.

Wow, I'm totally shocked that Harper never made an All-Star team. Harper was a consistent 20-5-5 guy for the first 8 years of his career. He and Kukoc were better players than Armstrong and Grant, but Armstrong and Grant were the ones who actually made the All-Star team. Regardless, they were all infinitely more talented than the likes of George, Walton and Parker.

[reeche]

Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with.

I agree with you about how competitve Kobe is, but how many all-star games did Harper, Kukoc, Grant and Armstrong make it to? That was a horrible arguement.

Making it to the All-Star game isn't a measure of a good player. In fact it's often meaningless. Grant was a very good player in his prime. He would have been an annual all-star on most squads. He just happened to play with the bulls and the magic during their prime which chewed up a lot of his numbers. Toni Kukoc was a very skilled player during his prime. Harper was a defensive specalist with a lot of veteran experience. Armstrong was a servicable point guard. Then you had players like Pippen and Rodman. It was a talented squad which was his point. The Lakers have nobody except Lamar Odom who often underachieves and dissappears in games.

[dbdynsty25]

Kaz said the "the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with" and I was simply stating that they didn't make many all-star games.

[dbdynsty25]

Man, if the Suns play like that every game, it's gonna be a fun series. Apparently the "pound it down low" theory doesn't work too well either. Brand went absolutely apesh*t and they still lost by 7. 130 points in a regulation game...not too shabby.

[ScoopBrady]

Please. The worst player on Jordan's bench was infintely better than anyone on the Lakers roster sans Odom and Kobe. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with. I guess delusional Jordan jockers think Jordan would have won 10 titles in a row with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown in the lineup. Classic.

Give me a break Kaz. Here's some more names for you: Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Cliff Levingston, Rodney McCray, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, Pete Meyers, Jud Buechler, Dickey Simpkins, Scott Burrell, Jason Caffey. Jordan never had a legitimate center and would still dominate a game offensively and defensively.

[Leebo33]

I would consider Bill Cartwright a legitimate center at 7'1 245. He's 26th all-time in FG% so I'm assuming he wasn't jacking up a lot of long range jumpers. I believe he made the All-Star and All-rookie teams as a center early in his career.

It's also a lot easier to dominate a game defensively when you share the court with two of the best defenders ever in Pippen and Rodman.

I think many many people forget that the Bulls went 55-27 and made it to the 7th game of a conference semi-final without Jordan!

[Kazuya]

Please. The worst player on Jordan's bench was infintely better than anyone on the Lakers roster sans Odom and Kobe. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with. I guess delusional Jordan jockers think Jordan would have won 10 titles in a row with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown in the lineup. Classic.

Give me a break Kaz. Here's some more names for you: Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Cliff Levingston, Rodney McCray, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, Pete Meyers, Jud Buechler, Dickey Simpkins, Scott Burrell, Jason Caffey. Jordan never had a legitimate center and would still dominate a game offensively and defensively.

I'm not sure what your point is... all of those guys are infinitely more useful than Brian Cook or Devean George. Even if they weren't, nobody said Jordan had a perfect roster. He did play with future Hall of Famers and All-Stars. Kobe does not. But Jordan jockers seem to forget that sometimes... they think Jordan chewed iron and spit out bullets, and won titles with 11 NBDL-caliber players.

[ScoopBrady]

Please. The worst player on Jordan's bench was infintely better than anyone on the Lakers roster sans Odom and Kobe. Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, B. J. Armstrong... the list goes on and on of All-Stars Jordan played with. I guess delusional Jordan jockers think Jordan would have won 10 titles in a row with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown in the lineup. Classic.

Give me a break Kaz. Here's some more names for you: Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Cliff Levingston, Rodney McCray, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, Pete Meyers, Jud Buechler, Dickey Simpkins, Scott Burrell, Jason Caffey. Jordan never had a legitimate center and would still dominate a game offensively and defensively.

I'm not sure what your point is... all of those guys are infinitely more useful than Brian Cook or Devean George. Even if they weren't, nobody said Jordan had a perfect roster. He did play with future Hall of Famers and All-Stars. Kobe does not. But Jordan jockers seem to forget that sometimes... they think Jordan chewed iron and spit out bullets, and won titles with 11 NBDL-caliber players.

So Kobe never played with future Hall of Famers? Are you kidding? Sounds like you are only using Kobe's current season and comparing it to Jordan's entire career. How fair is that? Here's a list of players Kobe has played with: Shaquille ONeal, Nick Van Exel, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman (very briefly but he played with him), Horace Grant, Isiah Rider, Gary Payton, Karl Malone.

Look, Jordan and Bryant are both great players. The big difference is Jordan was the only star on his team when he came into the league and got the supporting cast later and Kobe had stars surrounding him during the beginning of his career and now, later in his career, he's the only star. They have very similar careers in reverse.

[ScoopBrady]

I would consider Bill Cartwright a legitimate center at 7'1 245. He's 26th all-time in FG% so I'm assuming he wasn't jacking up a lot of long range jumpers. I believe he made the All-Star and All-rookie teams as a center early in his career.

There's no doubt Bill Cartwright was a good center when he was in New York but his numbers tailed off quite a bit when he got to Chicago.

His average for Points, Blocks, and Rebounds per season in New York (7 seasons excluding 1986 where he only played 2 games)

Points - 1,284
Blocks - 77
Rebounds - 546

Same numbers during his 6 years with the Bulls

Points - 606
Blocks - 20
Rebounds - 363

He's definitely the best center the Bulls have had in the past 20 years but sadly that's not saying much.

[reeche]

Give me a break Kaz. Here's some more names for you: Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Stacey King, Cliff Levingston, Rodney McCray, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, Pete Meyers, Jud Buechler, Dickey Simpkins, Scott Burrell, Jason Caffey. Jordan never had a legitimate center and would still dominate a game offensively and defensively.

I'm not sure what your point is... all of those guys are infinitely more useful than Brian Cook or Devean George. Even if they weren't, nobody said Jordan had a perfect roster. He did play with future Hall of Famers and All-Stars. Kobe does not. But Jordan jockers seem to forget that sometimes... they think Jordan chewed iron and spit out bullets, and won titles with 11 NBDL-caliber players.

So Kobe never played with future Hall of Famers? Are you kidding? Sounds like you are only using Kobe's current season and comparing it to Jordan's entire career. How fair is that? Here's a list of players Kobe has played with: Shaquille ONeal, Nick Van Exel, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman (very briefly but he played with him), Horace Grant, Isiah Rider, Gary Payton, Karl Malone.

Look, Jordan and Bryant are both great players. The big difference is Jordan was the only star on his team when he came into the league and got the supporting cast later and Kobe had stars surrounding him during the beginning of his career and now, later in his career, he's the only star. They have very similar careers in reverse.

Truthfully I don't even know what's being argued now. The point is that imo it's silly to castigate Kobe Bryant for not winning in his current situation because his team is crap (Other than for the fact the he and Shaq were too hard-headed to settle their difference which you can blame them both for). It's silly to castigate him for not winning as many championships as Jordan becasue the circumstances surrounding each player are different. Of course Jordan was a better player than Kobe. Most rationale people don't argue differently. What some people tire of is Jordan being used as a hammer to destroy any modern player. It's like saying every player after Ruth sucks because he couldn't didn't hit as many homers. Or every boxer after Ali sucks because he didn't achieve what Ali did. Times Changes and circumstances change.


Btw the Malone, Rodman, Harper, Grant, and Payton were shells of themselves by the time they played with Kobe. Just because a guy has a name doesn't mean he was that player at the tail end of his career. The same point you were making with Cartwright.

[ScoopBrady]

The point is that imo it's silly to castigate Kobe Bryant for not winning in his current situation because his team is crap (Other than for the fact the he and Shaq were too hard-headed to settle their difference which you can blame them both for). It's silly to castigate him for not winning as many championships as Jordan becasue the circumstances surrounding each player are different.

I totally agree. I never castigated Kobe and never will. I think Kobe Bryant is one of the best to ever play the game. One or two players can't win a championship in the NBA, it takes a solid supporting cast to get the job done. Malone and Stockton never won a championship because they never had the role players needed to do so. The only reason I ever mentioned anything was because Kaz compared one season of Kobe's to Jordan's entire career. Like I said, their careers (at this point) seem to be very similar but in reverse.

[lexbur]

I hope the Cavs at least show up tonight.

I know excuses are for losers, but I think it really hurt them that they had to start the second round series only a day and a half after finishing the first round, plus playing on the road, they never had a chance. Nobody expects them to beat Detroit, but they should put up a better showing than that.

And I know it's because of TV, but it sucks they rushed to get that first game in, then after tonight's game they're gonna sit around for 4 days until Game 3 on Saturday night. It would've been nice to have that break before Game 1. Not that it would have made much difference the way Detroit was shooting.

[dbdynsty25]

I hope the Cavs at least show up tonight.

I know excuses are for losers, but I think it really hurt them that they had to start the second round series only a day and a half after finishing the first round, plus playing on the road, they never had a chance. Nobody expects them to beat Detroit, but they should put up a better showing than that.

And I know it's because of TV, but it sucks they rushed to get that first game in, then after tonight's game they're gonna sit around for 4 days until Game 3 on Saturday night. It would've been nice to have that break before Game 1. Not that it would have made much difference the way Detroit was shooting.

Phoenix and San Antonio didn't have a problem coming back in 48 hours...and against teams that both had a week of rest going into the 2nd round.

[lexbur]

Phoenix and San Antonio didn't have a problem coming back in 48 hours...and against teams that both had a week of rest going into the 2nd round.

Yeah but they both went home. Somehow playing the Clippers or Dallas at home doesn't seem as tough as going to Detroit. Phoenix and San Antonio probably wouldn't have done much better going to Detroit on 36 hours rest.

I'm not saying the Cavs are better than Phoenix, San Antonio or anybody. In fact, they're probably the weakest team left standing. I'm just saying it's hard enough going into Detroit to play, and if you throw in the extra disadvantage of playing with so little time off, they have no chance at all.

I hope ABC's happy. They kept pimping this marqee matchup to their national Sunday audience, LeBron vs. Detroit's defense, but thanks to their greedily rushing things, all they got was LeBron sitting on the bench the whole fourth quarter chewing his fingernails because the game was such a blowout. Nice programming move, ABC. You could just hear the millions of TVs across the country clicking the game off.