Madden 10 - Will they prove us wrong?

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Zeppo
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Post by Zeppo »

I've only played a couple of games and a few of the Challenge situations. Here's a quick rundown of some positives and negatives. You know me, I can't keep it short, so here goes. First some negatives.

First frustration, the game still treats the play clock idiotically on a change of possession, whether that's off a punt, a kick off, a turnover, whatever. There is NO REASON that those situations should not be handled exactly like a time out, but instead it is handled exactly like a 2nd or 3rd down after an incomplete pass. That is, they only give you :25 to choose a play on 1st down after a change of possession and THIS IS ANNOYING, FRUSTRATING AND IDIOTIC. Huge pet peeve of mine, if you can't tell, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone from Tiburon should go to a few NFL games and see them live and in person to get a sense of how the game is really played.

Second pet peeve is the horrendous commentary, thanks to the dead as a zombie Hammond. The world is divided into two groups: those who can act, even just a little bit, and those who can't act a lick. Hammond can't act a lick. He's as stiff as a board, and it's simply embarrassing. I'd rather hear the old Lisa voice from my old Macintosh SE read the lines they feed this guy, because that would be more full of heart and emotion. Hammond's a door knob, and it's a real shame. Collinsworth isn't bad though.

There is a ton of room left in the game engine for polish, there is no question about that. You mostly see it when you slow it down in the replay. I still don't understand why the football has to flip 180º when the receiver catches it. Obviously this isn't a big deal at all for gameplay, but it has an effect on the smooth sense of virtual reality. Other little areas lacking polish include cases of semi-suction tackles, not as bad as the worst days of 2K or Madden, but there are cases where your guy will seem to stop an instant before he's actually hit. Again, it's not really a killer for the gameplay, but it's an area that demonstrates how much polish is still lacking in this game engine.

One really nice touch is that shoe-string tackles, or ankle grabs, really look realistic. Gone are the days of that 2K-style 'the tackler magically sucks up to the waist' that we saw not only in APF but also in the last couple of Maddens. Instead, you get a very real looking deal where the tackler almost knocks the ball carrier's one foot into the other, tripping him up.

This is all part of what seems to be a 'no tackle looks the same' mechanic, which is awesome to see. I really feel like I could break out of almost any tackle, but I don't do it often at all. Big, head-on collisions at the line of scrimmage feel and look pretty convincing. Gang tackles are fluid and dynamic, and the second guy is often the finisher. Awesome. I've seen some great big hits, some desperate trips, some ball carriers bouncing off but losing balance, all of it. One nice thing about the slower speed or maybe it goes deeper, is that I can beat that first guy much more reliably, even without a specific juke move, of course only to be finished off by the second man. Great stuff.

A cursory perusal of the options shows that of the 5 game speeds available, the default setting is one notch to the 'slow' from 'normal.' I have no idea what that means for online games, whether they are 'normal' or 'slow,' but there it is. I like the slightly slower speed, but it's not making it any easier for me so far on All Pro, I'll tell you that. I have major problems passing the ball, especially compared to NCAA where the passing game has fit like a glove for me, but I'm sure I will get a handle on the quirks. The big problem for me is the defenders are good and I have no time to throw. Heck, 90% of that is probably the Redskins who have a terrible O-line and only one receiever, and I've only played a couple games, both of those with my Skins.

One nice thing is the defenders don't seem to see balls they shouldn't. That is, I've had instances on D where a ball will go past a defender covering a different receiver than the intended receiver, and he won't react to the ball right behind his head. It's nice and feels more realistic. But they cover tightly and CBs do seem to react too quickly to receivers' cuts in their routes. My feeling is the passing game is nicely balanced, and I just have to get used to it, but the jury's out. I do know there is a TON more inaccuracy built in when you try to push that throw with the L-stick, so those corner routes and fades or those deep balls over the top should be more difficult and thus more fun and satisfying when you get it right.

Player ratings are much more greatly spread. There is a huge difference from a starter to a backup, and while I think some potential starters are rated way too low, it is nice to see the very real lack of depth in the NFL represented here in the game.

I don't remember if this was in last year, but throwing attributes are now divided up to overall throw accuracy and throw power, but also 'short, medium, and deep' throw accuracy, as well as a throw on the run rating and a play action rating. I will say with the slower speed, Campbell can take forever to release that ball especially when I try to bullet it. Frustrating, but pretty realistic.

Another nice thing I see is 'weather' is an option you can turn on or off for online games, at least unranked which is what I'd play with friends, of course. FINALLY! Weather for online games. I almost don't believe that one got into the game, since Tiburon has traditionally been committed to that old, on the Moon, no atmosphere online feeling.

Playing on the D-line is so much fun now. The interactions aren't as pretty as the old 2K stuff, but they are pretty close, and I really dig the R-stick for shedding the block moves. Of course, I'm using big Albert Haynesworth a lot, so maybe it's easier for me than it would be with a mere human DT, but just like in NCAA I am having a lot of fun creating pressure from a variety of ways. I don't always get through, the way I used to in 2K, but it really feels like I have a big input on what's happening. And of course, controlling a LB or a safety is just as fun and satisfying as ever.

So far it feels like the age old problems of passes in the flat or broken screen plays, the 'jump back toward the QB to catch the ball, thereby bringing into the play the defender we've just beaten by throwing the ball over his head' problem does seem to be gone completely. Guys in the flat seem to react quicker to the sidelines. Very nice.

There is a much bigger difference in player speed. Among the sliders, in fact, is a 'Player Min Speed Threshold' which is set right at 50 on default. If you crank it to 0, it should make a gigantic difference from fast to slow players, while a setting of 100 would make the game feel like Tecmo Bowl where everyone is the same speed. Fight for the Fumble can be turned on or off, but I've yet to see one yet, and so it seems A OK to me; it doesn't happen on every fumble, I can tell you that.

There are three camera options, normal, wide, and close. I've only used normal so far.

More sliders: there is a 'special teams' set, for FG power and accuracy, punt power and accuracy, kickoff power. Who knows how well these sliders work, and I'm not going to mess with them, but they are there.

CPU skill and Player skill slider sets are pretty extensive for those who love the tweaking.

Accelerated Clock works backwards, as far as I'm concerned, but even so it'll help a lot with Time of Possession stats and the balance in the number of plays run in v. CPU games. I'd prefer it off for v. Human games, but that's a choice you can make when you set up the game.

One thing I miss a ton from NCAA is that ability on Defense to anticipate, 'Pass, Run Left, Run Right, Run Middle' with the L-trigger. That has added a lot for me in online games of NCAA, and I think it's very well implemented and well balanced, but you can't do it in this NFL game. Silly.

Another thing I still don't understand is why the NCAA game gives you so many more formation and group options on D than the standard D in Madden. I'm sure I can find a good D playbook that will let me have a 46 at least, but it's just stupid, stupid, stupid to me that any NCAA team can have 4-3, 46, 4-4, or 5-2 without blinking an eye, but these NFL defenses are supremely limited in comparison. Again, I'll say these Tiburon guys need to see NFL games in person, because it's so hard to tell what goes on with personnel when you are watching on TV. In person, it's plain as day: 'oh look there are 5 DLs on the field right now' or 'oh look there are 7 DBs, what are they up to?' But this is Madden, so it's not 'in the game.'

The new camera angles they throw at you in between plays and as you approach the line of scrimmage are ACES! It's really good stuff, and just adds that little touch that makes it feel very authentic. There could be a lot more variety, for example in the camera selection for the kickoffs, but they are headed in the right direction and have made massive strides. I'd like to see a lot more auto replays in the background when picking plays, or wherever, but what you gonna do? The little touches, like player reactions after plays, for example the tackler taking a moment sitting on his haunches before getting up, are great. There may be a few too many leaping chest bumps after good defensive plays, but hey, that's actually a very authentic representation of the NFL! :D

And to balance out all my usual EA pet peeves (why left and right LBs instead of strong and weak? Why can't I ever have WRs outside the numbers on both sides?) are the uniform options. OMG I LOVE THIS! I admit I'm crazy about this stuff, but having the option to mix and match the jerseys, the helmets, the pants is very, very refreshing. Very. They are missing a couple of old Redskins helmets (the one with the feather from the 50s comes to mind), but the options are plentiful and the mixing and matching is a dream come true for me. The selections are a little glitchy, in that the white-at-home Redskins work fine if you don't dig into the options, but will go into weird 'Must wear red on the road' if you start adjusting. Very odd glitchiness, but the options are great to have.

I'm dying to play this game online, but too few people on my fiends list have it yet so I haven't had the chance.

The rosters right off the bat, even with an online update, are oddly out of date. I only really know the Skins, but Jansen and Thrash are retired, or at least Thrash is, and Jansen is a free agent. But Pete Kendall isn't in the game at all, and I guarantee that guy will end up on some team before camp is over. He should at least be a FA. Toomer is still out there as a FA, and Burress is in the game as a FA. Vick is not in the game. We need an update soon. I just can't start any offline season until after the final regular season rosters get finalized, just part of my personal OCD with this stuff.

What can I say, my overall early impressions are very, very good. I'm sure some problems will rear their heads as I play more and more and more games, but the games I've played have been very fun so far. Versus CPU games with 8-minute quarters and accel clock on the :15 setting yield just about half, maybe a little more than half of the realistic number of plays, but the accel clock helps keep those numbers more balanced v. CPU.

And oh yeah - why aren't Art Monk and Darrell Green (not to mention yesterday's inductess) in the Hall of Fame here? *sigh*
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Post by Slumberland »

It's quite good, but I think I was secretly hoping for The Show of football. It's still Madden, albeit noticeably improved, and finally stealing some tricks (though not enough, IMO) from The Show and 2K5.

On the gameplay side, I'm getting good, believable games (and stats) using 15 minute quarters and All-Pro defaults, with just a couple worries. There are still plays where the run blocking seems to be utterly brain dead, like in my Jets opener at Texas, where upon running a toss play to the right against what seemed to be a soft spot in the defense, my three tightly clumped blockers pretended that the one linebacker making his way towards me did not exist and let him right past to nail me without batting an eyelash. And then similar things I've been frustrated with before in Madden, like the handoff to my running back take so long that the defensive end all the way on the other side is somehow getting through via some unconvincing twist at the line and pulling me down from behind just after handing off. Eh, maybe it happens.

15 minute quarters with the accelerated runoff took about 70 minutes. Not terrible, but I still think there should be in-game saves.

I like the new game speed, and the time you have now to make decisions. If your receiver gets a step on someone, you can go over the top without any jetpacking bullsh*t. Passing overall feels really good, except for the odd AI teammate brainfart on screen passes... like the receiver never starting his route.

There's a weekly wrapup show that's fairly useless as there's no actual highlights. 2K5 managed this how many years ago? There are full video hosts though!

A lot of the in-game cutscenes and flavor are much appreciated. There's still this weird propensity for the developers to lock the cut-scene (and occasional replay) cameras on the player's mid-section, which creates this nauseating and unrealistic bouncing camera shot where the only thing staying perfectly centered is your player... you might not know what I'm talking about, but I think most people will know it when they see it. I'm not sure, it might have always been the case with Madden, but there are enough slick presentation concepts now (refs consulting on calls, really nice sideline shots) that some of the details in the execution stand out as a bit off.

CPU field goal attempts happen SO quickly, there's no time to even select a defender. Bizarre.

Applying lessons learned from The Show, I turned off the commentary after one game and pumped up the on-field sound.

Overall I think it's really promising, but the run-blocking is a little worrisome. There's a lot of talk at OS about that whole "using turbo too early makes CPU defenders react above their ratings" thing, so I'm laying off the turbo, but you'll probably have enough WTF plays at the line after a week of play to warrant a nice, long, angry post of videos over at OS. We'll see how things develop on that front, as I haven't played a ton yet, and didn't play the demo either.
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Post by dougb »

no in game saves yet??? 8O

Best wishes,

Doug
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Post by seanmac31 »

Zeppo wrote: Another thing I still don't understand is why the NCAA game gives you so many more formation and group options on D than the standard D in Madden. I'm sure I can find a good D playbook that will let me have a 46 at least, but it's just stupid, stupid, stupid to me that any NCAA team can have 4-3, 46, 4-4, or 5-2 without blinking an eye, but these NFL defenses are supremely limited in comparison. Again, I'll say these Tiburon guys need to see NFL games in person, because it's so hard to tell what goes on with personnel when you are watching on TV. In person, it's plain as day: 'oh look there are 5 DLs on the field right now' or 'oh look there are 7 DBs, what are they up to?' But this is Madden, so it's not 'in the game.'
Actually, I would disagree with this. As far as running base defenses, the NFL is much more limited than college. While there are different packages and groupings, just about everyone runs a 4-3, a 3-4 or a hybrid, and to the extent that the personnel groupings get exotic, it's in the nickel and dime packages, which Madden realistically reflects. In the NFL, just about everyone does the same thing, with minor variations.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/ ... every.html

Good write-up, btw.
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Post by XXXIV »

dougb wrote:no in game saves yet??? 8O

Best wishes,

Doug
WTF not?....They had that 5years ago?....Im so confused.
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Post by Zeppo »

seanmac31 wrote:
Zeppo wrote: Another thing I still don't understand is why the NCAA game gives you so many more formation and group options on D than the standard D in Madden. I'm sure I can find a good D playbook that will let me have a 46 at least, but it's just stupid, stupid, stupid to me that any NCAA team can have 4-3, 46, 4-4, or 5-2 without blinking an eye, but these NFL defenses are supremely limited in comparison. Again, I'll say these Tiburon guys need to see NFL games in person, because it's so hard to tell what goes on with personnel when you are watching on TV. In person, it's plain as day: 'oh look there are 5 DLs on the field right now' or 'oh look there are 7 DBs, what are they up to?' But this is Madden, so it's not 'in the game.'
Actually, I would disagree with this. As far as running base defenses, the NFL is much more limited than college. While there are different packages and groupings, just about everyone runs a 4-3, a 3-4 or a hybrid, and to the extent that the personnel groupings get exotic, it's in the nickel and dime packages, which Madden realistically reflects. In the NFL, just about everyone does the same thing, with minor variations.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/ ... every.html

Good write-up, btw.
I can't disagree with this more. I go to a lot of Redskins games, and maybe the Redskins are unique, but I highly doubt it. In fact, I see a lot of the Giants, Eagles and Cowboys, too.

A lot of time the Skins will put 5 DLs on the field. Or they will play with 3 safeties and two linebackers. Or three CBs and two safeties and two LBs (what Madden would call 'nickel'), or three CBs, three safeties and one LB once in a while. They will align in a 46-style D, or a more traditional, 2 safety alignment depending on the situation.

Normally on 3rd down passing situations, the Skins will take the Strong Side LB and put him in a 3-pt stance in the DE position, and move P. Daniels, who is an End on 1st and 2nd down or running situations, move him to Tackle. They do this every single time. First it was LaVar, then Marcus Washington. This season, they are converting 1st round sraft pick Orakpo, who played DE in college, to the SAM position specifically because he will be a pass rushing DE on 3rd downs and passing situations.

As I say, none of this stuff happens infrequently nor is exotic during the course of a normal Redskins game.

Yet I can hardly do any of it in Madden, at least not without some extensive, formation specific substitutions, which thankfully can be done in the play calling screen, if I were to have the time.

I'll admit I don't know the ins and outs of college ball too well, but it seems to me that most college Ds are pretty much straight forward affairs; some teams play pretty much Man, some pretty much stick to Zone. Sure they will put out different packages like nickel and dime, depending on what the Offense is doing, but you definitely see teams that are 3-3-5 and that's what they do, all the time.

Not so much in the NFL, where yes, some teams are base 3-4 and some are base 4-3, but in the modern game, player packages are immensely various from play to play and situation to situation, not to mention specifically game-planned groups or tendencies depending on the opponent.

It's not that those options shouldn't be in NCAA, it's the fact that the NFL defenses in Madden seem to be mostly dumbed down, in terms of options, from the NCAA game, and that's backwards, in my mind.
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Post by Zeppo »

double post
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Post by MizzouRah »

Thanks for the impressions!

I'll have to rent it when BB gets it in.
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Post by Zeppo »

Ok I just read that link you posted, and the only mention of defense is cursory at best. He mentions defense in passing while talking about bland offenses in the NFL. The whole thing is about offense. While I don't agree with the author completely, I see where he is coming from. But defenses in the NFL seem to be to be more and more complex and various, especially in terms of personnel packages.

One area the blog post digs into is how much time is wasted in team preparation on pass protection and thus taken away from preparation in the running game, apparently because of the exotic zone blitzes that have proliferated in the NFL. One solution presented would be more reliance on the option game (as in: more than zero), to nullify the exotic blitzes, and perhaps that is why we are seeing the wildcat catching fire around the league. Essentially he seems to be saying defenses in the NFL are more complex, various, and difficult to prepare for than in the past, and more so than offenses tend to be.

I don't disagree, and I think it should be reflected better in Madden. Their offenses seem to be getting better and better, but the defenses seem to be lagging.

Although, there's no doubt the Redskins D playbook is probably the worst in the game, and there are better options. I'm messing with the Steelers and they have three different nickel packages: 2-4-5, 3-3-5, 1-4-5. Plus a Dime, a Dollar, and a Quarter package. Now that's more like it!
Last edited by Zeppo on Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rodster »

I wish EA brought back Season Mode. :(

I know it's been enveloped into franchise mode but all I want to play is one season alongside my favorite team like I use to.
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Post by Slumberland »

Why isn't Belichick in the game? Does he negotiate his own likeness rights? He's like the Barry Bonds of football coaches. :)

Psyched to discover that the blue and gold retro Titans unis are available for the Jets. I love those uniforms.

My longest run so far, a 54-yard carry by Thomas Jones against the Pats. I wish it started a bit earlier.

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Post by XXXIV »

That looked...well...great. :D
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Post by Zlax45 »

Belichick is not a member of the coaching union.
My xbox live name is "The Zlax45"
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Post by Slumberland »

Abner's latest post pretty much nails it.
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Post by Rodster »

Slumberland wrote:Abner's latest post pretty much nails it.
Linkage please?
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Post by sportdan30 »

Here's Bill's latest entry I do believe:

As for Madden, the impressions will likely slow down now that the game is out and places are starting to publish reviews.

My own review will go live tomorrow at GameShark in the afternoon when the embargo lifts.

My final analysis is basically this:

It's the best version of Madden I have ever played -- for a variety of reasons but this series has finally started to go down a road that I completely support. What the dev team has done in one cycle is very impressive.

Now, because of that I may be giving it a bit more leeway than I normally would because you are going to see things that frustrate you -- the wonky blocking assignment logic, the less than stellar CPU run game, the sketchy CPU 2-minute offense AI, the fact that receivers still tend to run out of bounds on pass patterns at times, and so on.

I have detailed what I can in this here blog about what you can expect when you get the game. I really do hope it helped--if not about making a buying decision but about what to expect when you pop the game in. I appreciate all of the overwhelming email feedback, both the good and even from the guys who are now convinced I am on the EA payroll.

In the end I absolutely feel the positives outweigh the negatives, and going back to my #1 general rule of thumb: I am willing to live with what the game doesn't do well in order to get to the stuff that works. I was that way with High Heat Baseball, the Show, NHL 09, NFL 2K5, etc.

As for sliders -- here's a very general idea of what I am using:

Human:

Accuracy: Human 14 or 15 (basically All Madden level) Anything higher and QB accuracy is TOO bad. I put it on 20 and it was hilariously awful. This is GOOD, though. Finally, the sliders are on extreme ends. This is how it should be. Play with the Browns and use Derek Anderson and put this to 20. Sit back and crack up.

Running: 8 -- Your mileage may vary but I was really struggling running the ball on default due to the weird blocking. Also -- and I think this is important but make sure to assign block modes before the snap. (Hold LT and choose). If running a dive, have the line fire off (Aggressive), If running a counter have them flow left/right. It might be my imagination but I think it helped a lot.

Pass Defense: 12 --

Run Defense: 15 to 20. Again your mileage may vary but I strongly suggest making run d more difficult to give the CPU a chance at establishing a ground game.

CPU:

Running: (boost these if you still have CPU run issues)

Break Block 65
Run Block 65

Passing:

Pass Block: 40 (helps pass rush a bit)

Pass Defense:

Reaction time: 65
INT: 40 (All madden passing level means a lot of picks unless you change this imo)

Run Defense:

Reaction: 43
Shedding: 43
Tackling 60 to 65 (counters the huge YAC you get otherwise)


Field Goal STR: 70 (Otherwise Phil Dawson can hit a 50 yd fg. It's 5 yds short every time..)

Penalties:

No need to do much, really. Don't take holding over 52. Trust me.

Boost PI a bit -- 60 range. Everything else is ok.

I play on 13 minute quarters, accelerated clock and get around 110 plays.
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Post by Rodster »

Thanks Dan 8)
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Post by Danimal »

Abner gave it an A-

MetaCritic most reviews 90 or higher.

Grr I want this game.
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Post by Rodster »

I don't think i've ever said this about any Madden game but I can't wait for Friday. :)
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Post by Slumberland »

Just got totally pasted by the Titans, 47-20. Lendale White just ran over me all day for a total of 128 yards... he was a beast. After Mark Sanchez threw his third pick, I sat him down for Kellen Clemens, who had one of the bright moments for our squad. Notice the nice pocket, and the mix-and-match retro blue Jerseys with the '80's green helmets (if you can see anything with this damn EA encoding, that is):

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Post by Wilk5280 »

Danimal wrote:Abner gave it an A-

MetaCritic most reviews 90 or higher.

Grr I want this game.
Abner is like the Simon of football reviews, why is that? Everyone seems to praise him as some video football god. I don't get it. I mean even Ian tweeted a out Abner's review for crying out loud.
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Post by GTHobbes »

Wilk5280 wrote:
Danimal wrote:Abner gave it an A-

MetaCritic most reviews 90 or higher.

Grr I want this game.
Abner is like the Simon of football reviews, why is that? Everyone seems to praise him as some video football god. I don't get it. I mean even Ian tweeted a out Abner's review for crying out loud.
I've read his posts and his review and don't really get it either. Sounds like he's been hard on past EA football games and seems to like this one, so I guess that's the big news.

But I don't really follow his logic...he basically says that passes in the flats cannot be stopped by the cpu defense (he just doesn't abuse it), the cpu still can't run worth crap, the O-line blocking assignment logic is "wonky" (whatever that means), the cpu's 2 minute drill AI is still suspect, receivers still run out of bounds, the halftime show and other presentation elements still aren't up to 2k5, he skips over the fact that there are still no in-game saves and only minimal camera choices, and then he goes and slaps on the same letter grade as The Show received.

If that's what it takes to be a serious sports game journalist, I just don't know what to say. Then again, he did receive a very early free copy from EA this year, I'm guessing unlike years past, so maybe that at least partially explains some of the love.

I know there are guys who are going to absolutely love the game this year, so I'm going to quit with the bitching. Especially when all I have to base my opinion on is the 1 minute gamestop demo. Who knows, once they implement the broadcast cam through DLC I'll finally love the game as well.
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Dave
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Post by Dave »

GTHobbes wrote:Then again, he did receive a very early free copy from EA this year, I'm guessing unlike years past, so maybe that at least partially explains some of the love.
Yep, clearly that's it. BTW, he posted his Madden 09 review on the day of release...wonder how that happened...
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Post by Rodster »

Amazon just dropped the preorder price for Madden 10 to $54.99 with release day delivery. Plus it includes a $10 GC which brings the total to $44.99 with no tax unless you live in Washington State.
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Post by wco81 »

Rodster wrote:Amazon just dropped the preorder price for Madden 10 to $54.99 with release day delivery. Plus it includes a $10 GC which brings the total to $44.99 with no tax unless you live in Washington State.
So do people have to cancel existing preorders to get the new price?

Toys R Us is offering a $15 gift card.

I've seen discounts before at release date but they seem to be more generous this year. EA must really want to show a pop in first-week sales.
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