OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

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Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:
pk500 wrote: The government -- even an efficient, minimalist government, which is a total pipe dream in America -- should have no right to take the income of its citizens. It can charge other types of taxes and fees (sales tax, highway tolls, property tax), but I believe it has ZERO right to take the income of its citizens.
Take care,
PK
This isn't a minimalist country. There are minimalist countries, even states without income taxes.

Do you object to the type of taxes levied or how much money is levied by those taxes, especially the income tax?

Now, which country doesn't levy an income tax but is yet a developed, wealthy, and fairly large (doesn't have to be 300 million like the US but probably should be tens of millions)?
I object to all income taxes anywhere in the world. All of them, anywhere, any place.

Of course there are no major nations without income tax because there are no minimalist governments any more. It's an oxymoron in a world where some sort of socialized democracy or big-spending government is the norm.

Take care,
PK
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Post by pk500 »

JRod wrote:PK and you are throwing around productivity in exchange for money. One's worth to a society isn't directly related to how much money you make. Or at least it shouldn't.
Maybe productivity is the wrong term. Try this: I don't believe anyone should be penalized for earning income. That's why I'm vehemently opposed to all income taxes.

There are two types of people when it comes to the huge salaries paid to athletes and entertainers: Those who b*tch and moan, saying, "I can't believe that guy makes $10 million per year for playing a game," and those who say: "Why not? That's what someone is willing to pay them, so all the power to them for practicing a skill or craft that earns that kind of income."

Count me FIRMLY in the latter camp. Life is a meritocracy. Everyone ISN'T supposed to be equal on the wage scale.

Take care,
PK
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Post by pk500 »

JRod wrote:I see your point...

I think that system would be untenable because other areas would be taxed much more heavily. Property taxes would substantially increase as long as other pay-for-use services the government does provide.
No, they wouldn't, because government spending would be drastically slashed in my ideal U.S. government. We're talking billions of dollars of cuts. All of the wasteful spending. All of the ridiculous boondoggles like subsidizing tobacco farmers in North Carolina while banning smoking. And so on.
JRod wrote:We could also supplant the income tax with European like taxes such at the general VAT or astronomical property taxes. If we did away with income taxes, I think people would then b*tch about those and say why should be pay for those.
VAT's are huge because they're supporting socialist-style, big-government programs. Again, I'm a firm believer in very limited government, so my programs wouldn't need anywhere near the funding of those European-style programs.
JRod wrote:PK I understand your philosophical view on taxes and I strongly disagree with it mostly because I don't think it has hurt our country as much as critics of an income tax say.
Fair enough. I agree that America is prosperous and productive. But I think it could be even more so with no income tax and drastically reduced government spending, because the private sector has been the engine of America's economic might, not the government.

Take care,
PK
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Post by Feanor »

pk500 wrote:
Feanor wrote:We just won't mention the public roads, police and other infrastructure funded by tax dollars that allow Indy to have 300,000 fans attend and make their money.

We also won't mention the external costs such as higher pollution caused by Indy that the general public bears the cost of in way or another.

Of course, there are also large benefits to Indianapolis for having the IMS, but we don't need to pretend that the IMS should feel aggrieved for ever cent it pays in income taxes when it simply could not function without the public services paid for by those taxes.
Where the f*ck did this come from? Oh, that's right: I made a post about politics, so you had to retort with your Kiwi shorts in a wad. It's as predictable as rain in the Amazon.
It came directly from your claim, quoted below, that the IMS makes its money without using tax dollars in any form.
pk500 wrote:
JRod wrote:That would be ok, if you made your money without using any federal or state tax dollars in any form.
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway never has asked for or accepted a penny of public funding in its 99-year history. So I guess it's OK for me.
wco81 said exactly the same thing I did and he's not from New Zealand as far as I know. I don't know why you bring up my nationality all the time. It's rather odd, I must say.

Corporate income tax and personal income tax are both taxes on income, something you want to do away with entirely. Sorry if pointing out the obvious holes in your libertarian fantasy gets you mad.
pk500 wrote:
JRod wrote:For eight years, corporations and individuals in the higher tax brackets have paid less (percentage) than under the previous Democratic President. We do not have a stronger economy now because of those policies. Of course, the war, inflation, bad lending practices, have all contributed to the problem.
They shouldn't pay ANY income tax. Neither should the guy earning 20 grand per year.

Take care,
PK
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Post by pk500 »

Feanor wrote:It came directly from your claim, quoted below, that the IMS makes its money without using tax dollars in any form.
pk500 wrote:
JRod wrote:That would be ok, if you made your money without using any federal or state tax dollars in any form.
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway never has asked for or accepted a penny of public funding in its 99-year history. So I guess it's OK for me.
wco81 said exactly the same thing I did and he's not from New Zealand as far as I know. I don't know why you bring up my nationality all the time. It's rather odd, I must say.
Then I misunderstood WCO's point. I thought he was referring to individuals, not corporations, when he said "you" made your money without using any Federal or state tax dollars, because I work for a company that does not accept public funding in an industry saturated with entities that inhale public funding, especially for infrastructure like stadiums. IMS is the largest sports facility in the world, and it has been built and maintained without public funding.

I do not believe in personal income taxes. I don't have an opinion on corporate income taxes, as I'm not a business owner. I am an individual wage earner, and I don't want the government stealing those earnings, especially when that government spends that stolen income in a much less efficient and effective manner than I would if the money was still mine.

I wouldn't use that extra dough for discretionary sh*t like iPhones, plasma TV's and trips to Bermuda. I would simply be able to save and invest more, make more infrastructure improvements to my home, which would increase its value, save more for my kids' college education, etc.

My spending patterns wouldn't change with this extra income, other than higher donations to charity and maybe a small splurge for my wife, kids and I. And I'm sure my definition of small is smaller than most here. :)

But I would have a hell of a lot more money to save, to invest and to use to increase the value of my property.

I'm sure that's a libertarian fantasy that almost everyone would want to become reality, and it could be done without a massive cut in basic services such as roads, fire/police, schools and the level of military (set by the Constitution).

Seriously, do you think the government can spend YOUR money more efficiently and in more wise places than you can? The U.S. Federal government runs a tighter financial ship than your household?

That's pretty frightening if the answer is yes to either of those questions.

Take care,
PK
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Post by Jared »

I linked it for the chart, not for the writing. Some people like to harp on the rich not paying "their fair share" of income taxes, and it's pretty clear from the data that they pay it and more, despite the 2003 "tax cuts for the rich."
It depends on what you think of more progressive versus more flat taxation. For example, I don't think it would be fair to tax someone making $25k a year at similar rates as someone making $250k a year. If you subscribe to progressive taxation (as do most nations in the Western world), then those discrepancies, as long as they aren't too big, are fair.
You are saying that the tax cuts in 2003 did not improve the economy because it has slowed in 2008. Not sure I follow.
No...the article made the claim that the economy has grown faster due to the tax cuts, which they have no evidence for. Since the economy has been on a downturn, I have no idea how they can make such a claim.
And as you probably know but chose not to mention, part of the increase in AGI is closure of tax loopholes as well as lower tax rates reducing the incentive to use tax shelters. In other words, that 30% increase is partially a result of more income is being reported.
I don't know that there was anything close to a substantial increase in AGI due to closing tax loopholes and lower tax rates...and I'm skeptical that it accounts for anything more than a minimal increase. Though if you have evidence for your claim, I'm all ears.
I don't know what you are trying to prove by pointing out that the % of AGI paid by the top 1% has gone down. My original point about our system of government encouraging people to vote themselves money remains - 5% of the population pays for 60% of federal spending and receives, and 50% of the population pays for 97% of spending. The bottom 50% pays for 3% of services and receives 65% of government spending - a hefty return rate of several hundred percent (1461% for the bottom 20% of earners) for each tax dollar paid.

Throw universal health care or removal of social security income caps on top of that, and those percentages will become even more dramatic.
Because % income paid is a much more honest way of laying out tax burden than what the article did. As for your original point, the level to which people will "vote themselves money" is likely directly related to the income inequality in the country. If 95% of the population pays no taxes because they're dirt poor, then yeah, they'll vote themselves money. But in the United States, we've got a large enough middle class that is taxed enough such that tax increases would hurt their bottom line. To put it another way, what is the income level where someone's tax expenditures is the same as what they get from taxes? Is that number a majority in the country? And how do they vote?

And as for abolishing the income tax...
Of course there are no major nations without income tax because there are no minimalist governments any more. It's an oxymoron in a world where some sort of socialized democracy or big-spending government is the norm.
What about the possibility that, in order to be more than a weak economic nation, things like income tax are necessary in order to develop the infrastructure for the nation to really grow? The United States has had income tax from 1913 onward, and the top rate from 1939 until 1981 was over 50%. And I think the economy was doing pretty well then...
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Post by FatPitcher »

JRod wrote:
FatPitcher wrote:
JRod wrote: Is this debate too advanced for your one line posts?
Yes, exactly, it's too advanced. Your stunning grasp of economic principles and your novel theories about how production is immune to price increases have left me at a loss for words. At first I thought your out-of-hand dismissal of Say's work was presumptuous, but now I see that it was only my limited mind's incapacity to follow your audacious yet brilliant reasoning to its incontrovertible conclusions.
You aren't debating. Hell you aren't even contradicting anything I say. You are just dismissing it because you disagree with it and then using big words.

I never did say that production is immune to price increases. I said that there is no independent evidence that shows taxes limits productivity. And by productivity I mean how productive you are in a society. In other words your contribution to that society. I also conceded that taxes does hamper capital investments by companies or individuals. I disagree with staunch advocates that say the wealth are taxed too much and this hampers capital investments.

PK and you are throwing around productivity in exchange for money. One's worth to a society isn't directly related to how much money you make. Or at least it shouldn't.

If my father made all his money in oil and left me with the inheritance. I would have a boatload of money. If your terms, I would be productive because I have money.

You want to debate than start doing do.
It's hard to debate someone who doesn't know enough about the debate topic to present a well-informed argument and who refuses to seek out information even when it is pointed out. Hell, even a quick peek at Say's wikipedia page gives you this:
"A hard working laborer, I was told, fancied working by candlelight. He had calculated that, during his vigil, he burned a 4-penny candle, earning 8 pennies by his work. A tax on tallows and another on the manufacture of the candles increased by 5 pennies the cost of his luminary, which became thus more expensive than the value of the product that it could shed light upon. From then on, as soon as night fell, the workman remained idle; he lost the 4 pennies which his work could obtain him, and without the tax service perceiving anything out of this production. Such a loss must be multiplied by the number of the workmen in a city and by the number of the days of the year."
At this point, it's hard to have a debate with you because you are arguing against well-established economic principles, not against my opinions. Do I really want to try to teach economics on a message board to someone who thinks they already know more than enough? Hardly.
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Post by Jackdog »

pk500 wrote:
Where the f*ck did this come from?

I NEVER made the connection between IMS paying taxes and personal income taxes. IMS pays plenty of taxes, yet unlike other professional sports entities that also pay taxes and rely on public services such as NFL teams, MLB teams, NBA teams and NHL teams, IMS never has requested or accepted a penny of public funding.

I simply made the point that I work for a company that never has accepted public funding for any part of its business after JRod indicated that no one should complain if they work for a company that benefits from public funding.

Yes, there are state and local police directing traffic outside the facility and for law enforcement outside and within the track. But if it makes you feel better, the entire safety patrol and security detail at the facility is hired and funded by IMS.

And a basic government can collect more than enough taxes from sources other than income to provide for basic services such as law enforcement, highways and schools.

Take care,
PK
What about the higher pollution caused by Indy that the general public bears the cost of in way or another? I am disgusted!! :roll:

Next he'll want IMS to ban fat people. :wink:


Feanor, since your post to PK came from left field,I thought I would cover right field with this. First off,remember our fat debate? well I gotta say,you were right. I was wrong. Your country has some fatty issues. So many they are doing some batshit crazy stuff.

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti ... d=22487825
Couple denied entry into New Zealand because of weight
A UK man seeking to emigrate to New Zealand was hired as a submarine cable inspector and supervisor by Telecom. When he applied for his visa, he was denied entry. Why?

"His employer-backed skills visa was initially rejected by immigration officials when they discovered that his body mass index, or BMI, was 42, making him morbidly obese under New Zealand regulations."

So who was this slovenly couch potato? A Welsh rugby player, a former soldier.

"My doctor laughed at me. He said he’d never seen anything more ridiculous in his whole life. He said not every overweight person is unhealthy or unfit."

New Zealand now has a policy of denying entry visas for those it claims "will be a drain on the health system" and claims to have no idea how many people have been turned down based on weight. They use, by the way, the BMI scale as a determinant, which doesn't take muscle weight into account. As a point of reference, the majority of the U.S. National Basketball Association would be considered overweight or obese.

The man went on a crash diet and lost two inches, doing who-knows-what damage to his system, just to be able to get into the country. His wife, however, had to stay behind until she could lose enough weight to be an "acceptable" immigrant.

So the main argument was that fat people cost the health care system more, in a country that has nationalized health care. In addition to the lack of evidence that weight, rather than lifestyle, has ANY effect on health care costs, the article states:

Mr Trezise has private health care in New Zealand and his employer, Telecom, has a gym membership scheme."

So with the health care costs taken care of by a private company, could it be that New Zealand simply doesn't want fat people there? Even though the country is "critically short of skilled workers"? Are they seriously willing to take their image of a thin country so far as to shoot their economy in the foot?

Robyn Toomath, a spokesman for New Zealand's Fight the Obesity Epidemic and an endocrinologist said that obese people should not be victimised, but agreed with the restrictions.

"The immigration department can't afford to import people who are going to be a significant drain on our health resources.

"You can see the logic in assessing if there is a significant health cost associated with this individual and that would be a reason for them not coming in."

While the New Zealand Immigration Service could not say how many peolpe had been refused entry on similar grounds, the Emigrate New Zealand website revealed that many people had been banned for being obese.
Wow! Banning people because of their BMI. All I can say is, Welcome to America!!!

Seriously,do they ban anyone who has had an ongoing psychiatric disorder requiring treatment? That would make it impossible for me to move there. :cry: How about anyone who has been an alcoholic or drug abuser or heavy smoker in the past? Even if they've quit, they've already done substantial damage to their bodies,right? Anyone who has ever had cancer? Diabetics? Arthritis, or high blood pressure?

Is this what we can expect if the US goes to a national health care system?

Anyhow we can get back to bashing American politics and people now. I am coming in in off my ledge.
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Post by JRod »

FatPitcher wrote: At this point, it's hard to have a debate with you because you are arguing against well-established economic principles, not against my opinions. Do I really want to try to teach economics on a message board to someone who thinks they already know more than enough? Hardly.

Do you have a doctorate in economics? Outside of that, all you are doing is saying, I don't have to post anything worthwhile, because I assume I know more than the next poster. You've done it three times and this time with a quote for who knows where.

It's easy to say your are right without actually proving it.
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Post by Jackdog »

JRod wrote:
To pull a Clinton I didn't call you stupid. I said your arguments sounded stupid. Not really a difference with a distinction. It was a poor choice of words.
No harm,no foul. It's all good brother. Sorry if I offended.
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Post by matthewk »

JRod wrote:Productivity is all relative. How about the migrant workers that move around the nation roofing homes. They would 12-14 hour days. I know for a fact that's a lot longer than some professionals that just have a 4 year degree. They don't have health care. They don't make a lot of money. But they are productive for 14 hours a day. That's a example of a job where productivity is measure in time.

How about a teacher versus a real estate agent. One just sells homes which increases peoples purchasing power to buy other big ticket items. The other teaches children which impacts their productivity for the future. Most teachers have benefits as do real estate agents. Good real estate agents make more money than teachers does that mean they are worth more to the society than the teacher. Even if the teacher has a masters degree meaning he/she went to school for a minimum of 5-6 years not to mention the other accreditation needed to be a certified teacher.


Your are right in one point. Sometimes the government subsidizes non-productivity. Airlines have been subsidized to keep them flying. Oil companies have been given tax breaks even though they are making record profits. I guess that's rewarding how productive they are.
Boo hoo for the poor migrant workers. I bet a lot of them get paid in cash and don't even pay taxes. It's also about supply and demand. Many of us professionals could (and in my case have) roofed homes. Not many migrant workers can do what I do in IT. The workers that can, like those in India, are taking our jobs. Again, it's supply and demand. The companies found someone who can do the same work for less. Sucks for us here in the USA, but that is the reality we are dealing with. As for productivity, who's to say they are more productive because they work 12-14 hours. They spent more hours at work, but does that really make them more productive than someone who only worked 8?

You picked a great example in your next one. "One just sells homes". Way to minimize someones occupation. Teachers get mega pensions and sweet health care. Oh, and they also get summers and breaks off. Oh, those poor underappreciated teachers. You can't just walk in the door and become a real estate agent. You need to take a 4 hour exam that requires months of studying. They work lots of weekends and are on call constantly.

Your examplles here prove nothing but how narrow minded you are. That's the only way I can put it.

Best example of subsidizing non-productivity: welfare.
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Post by JRod »

matthewk wrote: Boo hoo for the poor migrant workers. I bet a lot of them get paid in cash and don't even pay taxes. It's also about supply and demand. Many of us professionals could (and in my case have) roofed homes. Not many migrant workers can do what I do in IT. The workers that can, like those in India, are taking our jobs. Again, it's supply and demand. The companies found someone who can do the same work for less. Sucks for us here in the USA, but that is the reality we are dealing with. As for productivity, who's to say they are more productive because they work 12-14 hours. They spent more hours at work, but does that really make them more productive than someone who only worked 8?

You picked a great example in your next one. "One just sells homes". Way to minimize someones occupation. Teachers get mega pensions and sweet health care. Oh, and they also get summers and breaks off. Oh, those poor underappreciated teachers. You can't just walk in the door and become a real estate agent. You need to take a 4 hour exam that requires months of studying. They work lots of weekends and are on call constantly.

Your examplles here prove nothing but how narrow minded you are. That's the only way I can put it.

Best example of subsidizing non-productivity: welfare.

Well you clearly don't understand my point. I said that productivity is relative.

Did I minimize what realtors do? I said they sells homes WHICH give people equity in this economy. I guess for less nuances posters, I need to post a job description as well. Equity if crucial for people to buy bigger ticket items, increase wealth to name two items.

I used those two examples to show there is no way to tax based on productivity. Others have said how the wealthy's production is hampered because of taxes; my point was to use two juxtpositions to show how production isn't a fair way to tax individuals.

My last sentence, in that paragraph, which you blatently ignored said it was clearly an example of productivity based on time not anything else.

NOWHERE DID I SAY ONE'S PROFESSION IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER.


And teachers don't get the summer off. Most teacher's don't get paid for the summer months. The school districts pay them from the first day of the school to the last day. They withhold a portion of their salary to pay them over the summer months.

As for migrant worker's, I'm not talking about illegal workers. Legal migrant workers should have to pay taxes. There is no provision in our tax code that says if you are here legally but get paid cash, you don't have to pay taxes. If they don't either the worker or the employer is breaking the law. That's why they call it under the table.
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Post by Rodster »

I'm glad the British can see through all this Obma crap. :lol:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 392846.ece
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Post by Jackdog »

Rodster wrote:I'm glad the British can see through all this Obma crap. :lol:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 392846.ece
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by RobVarak »

What's the source on that, Squid? That doesn't seem likely, particularly the total lack of donations from Fox to the GOP.
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Post by fsquid »

Investors Business Daily. I was surprised too on the Fox News
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Post by Feanor »

@ JackDog

I think that policy has probably come about after an number of cases where obese Pacific Islanders have come to NZ and ended up needing kidney transplants and other extremely expensive medical care.

I don't have a problem with countries refusing entry to those people they think will need expensive, goverment funded health care or might pose a risk of spreading disease. I know the US wouldn't have let me in the country to stay without an AIDS test, TB test, and a bunch of extra vaccinations that most US citizens probably don't have.

It seems a bit unfair in this case since the guy had private health insurance, but I assume the NZ Government would say that they can't count on him having that permanently.
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Post by Feanor »

Jared wrote:
Of course there are no major nations without income tax because there are no minimalist governments any more. It's an oxymoron in a world where some sort of socialized democracy or big-spending government is the norm.
What about the possibility that, in order to be more than a weak economic nation, things like income tax are necessary in order to develop the infrastructure for the nation to really grow? The United States has had income tax from 1913 onward, and the top rate from 1939 until 1981 was over 50%. And I think the economy was doing pretty well then...
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Post by Jackdog »

Feanor wrote:@ JackDog

I think that policy has probably come about after an number of cases where obese Pacific Islanders have come to NZ and ended up needing kidney transplants and other extremely expensive medical care.

I don't have a problem with countries refusing entry to those people they think will need expensive, goverment funded health care or might pose a risk of spreading disease. I know the US wouldn't have let me in the country to stay without an AIDS test, TB test, and a bunch of extra vaccinations that most US citizens probably don't have.

It seems a bit unfair in this case since the guy had private health insurance, but I assume the NZ Government would say that they can't count on him having that permanently.
I gotcha. I read up on it a bit more. I had no idea NZ had so many Pacific Islanders. Thanks man and again.....WELCOME!!!
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fsquid
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Post by fsquid »

I thought you just had to know the Haka to get into NZ?
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Jackdog
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Post by Jackdog »

fsquid wrote:I thought you just had to know the Haka to get into NZ?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Feanor »

Tonga is actually the home of the fattest people on the planet according to a quick Google search. The obesity rate in the Republic of Tonga has hit 60 percent and the incidence of type 2 diabetes is 15 percent. 8O
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Post by wco81 »

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:
pk500 wrote: The government -- even an efficient, minimalist government, which is a total pipe dream in America -- should have no right to take the income of its citizens. It can charge other types of taxes and fees (sales tax, highway tolls, property tax), but I believe it has ZERO right to take the income of its citizens.
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PK
This isn't a minimalist country. There are minimalist countries, even states without income taxes.

Do you object to the type of taxes levied or how much money is levied by those taxes, especially the income tax?

Now, which country doesn't levy an income tax but is yet a developed, wealthy, and fairly large (doesn't have to be 300 million like the US but probably should be tens of millions)?
I object to all income taxes anywhere in the world. All of them, anywhere, any place.

Of course there are no major nations without income tax because there are no minimalist governments any more. It's an oxymoron in a world where some sort of socialized democracy or big-spending government is the norm.

Take care,
PK
That's the rub, all modern, industrialized nations have progressive income taxes. Well I don't know about China and India, which will join the G8 in GDP terms if they haven't already.

Is it possible to build a prosperous nation offering a high standard of living with an educated citizenry without a big govt.?

Is it possible to do so without levying income taxes, specifically progressive income taxes?

Even if it's not possible, people have choices. There are states without income taxes (NY probably has one of the higher state income taxes) and there are also countries without income taxes as well.

There's certainly migration to states like Texas. Not sure if countries without income taxes see a lot of immigration.
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Post by wco81 »

Rodster wrote:I'm glad the British can see through all this Obma crap. :lol:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 392846.ece
I think that's a Murdoch-owned paper.

IOW, about as representative of Britain as Fox News is of the US.
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