OT: The Swiftees

[Teal]

"The dems do better around their convention and the reps do better around their own. This week has been bad for Kerry because the media has focused solely on the RNC. Much like they did for the DNC."



Oops-the dems got zero bounce from their convention. Would you like to play for double jeopardy where your scores can really change?



"As for privatization, I'm all for it. The private sector can run something better than the government 95 times out of 100.

For example, I would much rather be able to take my Social Security deductions from my paycheck and invest them myself instead of relying on Uncle Sam. I would make a hell of a lot more money than the U.S. government will provide me, if Social Security is even solvent 30 years from now.

Again, it's about personal responsibility. I'd rather be responsible for my future instead of relying on government to do it."



PK:
Spoken like a true conservative. Abso-friggin'-lutely deadeye.

[dougb]

Here's a link to a page with a table that puts all of the Swiftboat actors in one place and provides a summary of who they are (or were), what they've alleged, and the merits of any allegations.

http://www.myleftbrain.com/docs/swift.shtml

Best wishes,

Doug

[blueduke]

Kerry needs to talk about how Bush was silent for 7 minutes when the planes hit. If this was a WMD, I think the this country needs the President for those 7 minutes

Bad idea........................

"I was in the Capitol. We'd just had a meeting - we'd just come into a leadership meeting in Tom Daschle's office, looking out at the Capitol. And as I came in, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon. And then word came from the White House, they were evacuating, and we were to evacuate, and so we immediately began the evacuation."----John Kerry "war hero" to Larry King


How appropriate that Kerry lumps himself in with fellow leftist do-nothing non-thinkers such as Boxer, Daschle and Reid. The second plane hit the World Trade Center at 9:03 a.m., and the plane hit the Pentagon at 9:43 a.m. By Kerry's own words, he and his fellow senators sat there for forty minutes, realizing "nobody could think".

[blueduke]

Here's a link to a page with a table that puts all of the Swiftboat actors in one place and provides a summary of who they are (or were), what they've alleged, and the merits of any allegations.

Kerry was able to muster 14 swift boat vets who support him. On the other hand, there are 254 swift boat veterans who say Kerry is a fraud and is "Unfit for Command." Pretty big disparity

[dougb]

Blueduke,

Not so bad idea maybe. First, George Bush was the Chief Executive charged with responding to the events. As others have pointed out, in nuclear war scenarios the President is expected to make decisions literally within a few minutes. Kerry & Co. could hardly be criticized for not doing anything since they're legislators who are not in a position (constitutionally or practically) to command the government to respond.

Second, George is caught dead to rights on video and the those Democratic senators aren't. The video looks really bad for Bush and if the Dems decide to go nuclear by using it the Republicans are going to have a tough time responding. Republicans have repeatedly politicized 9/11 so they'd have a tough time going after the Democrats for politicization of 9/11.

Best wishes,

Doug

[pk500]

Here's a link to a page with a table that puts all of the Swiftboat actors in one place and provides a summary of who they are (or were), what they've alleged, and the merits of any allegations.

Kerry was able to muster 14 swift boat vets who support him. On the other hand, there are 254 swift boat veterans who say Kerry is a fraud and is "Unfit for Command." Pretty big disparity

Jesus Christ, Bush's PR team really is damn good. They've convinced many Americans that a President's sole role is to be Commander in Chief. The President is Patton in a dark suit and nothing more.

Lord, are we electing a President or the leader of a junta in November? I'm so f*cking sick and tired of people talking about nothing other than terror, national security, the National Guard and Swift Boats in this election season.

There ARE other issues that are pressing to many Americans, as hard as it is for some to fathom.

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

Doug I don't fault Bush or Kerry here. First Kerry's shock to me is a normal human reaction and like you said he was not the CIC. Second, what was Bush supposed to do? Get up and run? Maybe the Secret Service in those "7 minutes" was making sure a secure exit from the building was in place and making sure there was a safe route to the airport? After all we were under attack and nobody knew the full extent of it that very minute. But using Micheal Moore's footage and running with it while having his own statements clearly on the record...............how could this gain him any advantage?

[blueduke]

Lord, are we electing a President or the leader of a junta in November? I'm so f*cking sick and tired of people talking about nothing other than terror, national security, the National Guard and Swift Boats in this election season.

Like it or not there are people who want to lay a hurting on us. They've already done so and vow to do it again. Thank Mr Kerry for the swiftees. He's the one bragging about his purple hearts

[dougb]

Here's a link to a page with a table that puts all of the Swiftboat actors in one place and provides a summary of who they are (or were), what they've alleged, and the merits of any allegations.

Kerry was able to muster 14 swift boat vets who support him. On the other hand, there are 254 swift boat veterans who say Kerry is a fraud and is "Unfit for Command." Pretty big disparity

Except that the 254 number seems to be declining as we speak. Several have already pointed out that the feedback that they gave the organizers was 'edited' so that comments supporting Kerry's account were eliminated. Some have come out and flatly said that they did not give permission for the use of their names.

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.ph ... t-boat.inc

In addition, the number of vets is quite irrelevant in determining whose version of the events is true. The important pieces of evidence are eyewitness testimony and documentary evidence. The problem with the many of the Swifboat veterans accusing Kerry is that many have praised his actions in the past. In court, witnesses whose testimony substantively contradicts past statements are given no weight. At least that's the way it worked in the universe I used to live in.

Best wishes,

Doug

[pk500]

Lord, are we electing a President or the leader of a junta in November? I'm so f*cking sick and tired of people talking about nothing other than terror, national security, the National Guard and Swift Boats in this election season.

Like it or not there are people who want to lay a hurting on us. They've already done so and vow to do it again. Thank Mr Kerry for the swiftees. He's the one bragging about his purple hearts

Like it or not, there were just as many people who wanted to lay a hurting on us during the 1988 election season, the 1992 election season, the 1996 election season and the 2000 election season. Terrorism isn't a recent phenomenon -- this was just the first time foreign terrorists penetrated Fortress America to devastating effect.

Lest you forget, the most heinous act of terrorism committed before Sept. 11, 2001 was executed by an American citizen in Oklahoma City. But we didn't see a bloated, bureaucratic Department of Brushcutted Ex-Vet Psycho Security created to compensate for the failures of intelligence and law enforcement, did we?

Ask a relative of one of the 168 victims of the Oklahoma City bombing who posed a greater threat to their security -- a turbaned madman in an Afghanistani cave or a brushcutted ex-soldier from suburban Buffalo?

Like it or not, you're dealing in hypotheticals. I'm dealing in stark reality.

We may be attacked again. But there are people with plenty of real-world problems in this country now.

You know, people out of work, people with diminshed savings, people without insurance, a crumbling Social Security net, a ridiculous drug policy, overflowing prisons, excessive taxes, etc.

Neither candidate is doing a f*cking thing to address these issues with any substance.

I swear, some Republicans would think America is peaches and cream if the 21st-century version of the Great Wall was built around America, complete with a Star Wars defense system, to protect us against terrorists, even if it bankrupted the Treasury while every other social and societal issue was ignored. All would be light and airy, Ward and June Cleaver walking the Earth again.

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

I'm dealing in stark reality.

Reality.............over 3,000 innocent dead and they vow to do it again

I agree with your concerns over unemployment, social security, and the rest

[pk500]

I'm dealing in stark reality.

Reality.............over 3,000 innocent dead and they vow to do it again

I agree with your concerns over unemployment, social security, and the rest

Reality.............millions dying in sub-Saharan Africa due to disease and hunger while U.S. and other world politicians diddle their thumbs wondering if we should forgive the debt of those nations. Oh, that's right: They're not red-blooded Americans, so we shouldn't give a sh*t, right?

Meanwhile, Bush trumpets how he's bringing freedom to Iraq, albeit on the barrel of a gun, while we don't have time to help preserve life in Africa through peaceful means. Maybe someone should plant WMD's somewhere in Uganda, Cameroon and Tanzania, or Saddam should be exiled to Benin or Rwanda -- maybe then the African apocalypse will get the current Administration's attention.

Reality............nearly 1,000 American soldiers dead in the Don Quixote search for WMD's in Iraq.

Reality............ according to the Census Bureau, the number of people living below the official poverty line grew by 1.3 million in 2003, to 35.9 million. That's nearly 4.3 million more poor persons than when Bush took office, an increase of nearly 14 percent.

Take care,
PK

[blueduke]

Reality.............millions dying in sub-Saharan Africa due to disease and hunger while U.S. and other world politicians diddle their thumbs wondering if we should forgive the debt of those nations. Oh, that's right: They're not red-blooded Americans, so we shouldn't give a sh*t, right?

Care? Yes. Any decent American would. Make it a top priority when al queda and other crazies vow to blow us up? Sorry but as depressing a situation as it is my top priority would be to make my own country safe and secure and help my own citizens.

Reality............nearly 1,000 American soldiers dead in the Don Quixote search for WMD's in Iraq.

If they're there (WMD's) we'd better find them. My guess they've already been moved to Syria or some other Middle Eastern hellhole. They had plenty of time to do so whenever Bush was trumpeting we were going over there. This was a mistake imo. I'd have much prefered the Reagan way. Libya would agree it was pretty effective.

Reality............ according to the Census Bureau, the number of people living below the official poverty line grew by 1.3 million in 2003, to 35.9 million. That's nearly 4.3 million more poor persons than when Bush took office, an increase of nearly 14 percent.

Wonder how many of these are illegals? In any case the US gov't has spent over one trillion dollars since the 60's fighting poverty. How's it working out? The gov't can't cure this. Heck they can't even deliver the mail on time anymore. Incidently some of these living in "poverty" can't afford to buy their own children school lunches but can afford cd players, air jordan's, and ps2's.

Reality...................

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but... It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida

[RandyM]

[Lord, are we electing a President or the leader of a junta in November? I'm so f*cking sick and tired of people talking about nothing other than terror, national security, the National Guard and Swift Boats in this election season. There ARE other issues that are pressing to many Americans, as hard as it is for some to fathom.

That's very true. However, it's very hard for a corpse to appreciate a good economy. Remember the guarantee of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? The first requirement is "life". And happiness isn't guaranteed, either, only the freedom to pursue it.

You can be as sick of it as you want, PK, but the reason ultra-lib Ed Koch crossed party lines to support the president was because of this prioritization of aims. When the nation has troops in harm's way, the #1 campaign issue SHOULD be the fitness of the commander-in-chief to make military decisions.

All the other stuff is important, but only relevant if you're alive to appreciate it. I'm hoping it's not lost on you that just last week, terrorists blew up two airliners in Russia, and a SCHOOL was seized by terrorists in Chechnya. It's kind of funny to hear those on the left (I'm not lumping you in there PK), say that the war on terror is exaggarated, and as Michael Moore says :"There IS NO TERRORIST THREAT", but then declare that we're no safer after 9/11. Hm, are we safe or not? I personally believe that the threats and plots that have been thwarted since 9/11 show we are safer than we were on 9/11, but how much so is unknown.

If there's going to be an "October surprise" it's still ahead of us.

Anyhoo, if you are sick of hearing about war and terror, tune it out...don't follow this thread if it makes your blood pressure skyrocket.

Randy

[pk500]

>>>When the nation has troops in harm's way, the #1 campaign issue SHOULD be the fitness of the commander-in-chief to make military decisions.<<<

Until Bush's speech last night, it was the ONLY issue at the convention. And that kind of myopia is dangerous. But I think Bush -- or Karl Rove -- did a good job of covering all of the "pocketbook" and "kitchen" topics that the rest of the convention ignored repeatedly.

Oh, and thanks for the update on the terror attacks overseas, but the broadband connection works just fine, and the newspaper still arrives in the morning. On the same day as the Chechnya terror, I wonder how many Americans lost their jobs? And do you think the President's fitness as commander in chief is the primary issue for someone who is unemployed or for someone who is employed and has dipped into the poverty zone? I don't.

And yes, I do question the Bush administration's insistence that we are safer than we were in 2001. How do we know?

The last time the American mainland was attacked by foreign terrorists before Sept. 11, 2001 was the World Trade Center bombing in February 1993. More than eight years passed without an attack despite the so-called lackadaisical stance on terror of the Clinton Administration.

Yet only three years have passed without an attack since Sept. 11, and we're supposedly way safer than we were under Clinton's watch or in the early months of the Bush Administration? How does anyone know that? Because Bush and Tom Ridge say so?

It's a total leap of faith, and one I'm not willing to make. I sure hope it's the case that America is safer, but I'm not taking it as blind faith just because Bush created another bloated bureaucratic department to cover the asses and do the work of other failed government agencies.

After all, this is the Administration that routinely raises the terror alert level without details and then tells Americans not to panic and to continue to conduct their daily lives. We hear: "There is evidence of an imminent attack, and we're raising the threat level, but don't worry. Continue to live normally. Don't panic even though we're holding this press conference to tell you that foreign terrorists might strike at any time, and strike hard."

Huh?

Last time I checked, the National Weather Service doesn't issue hurricane warnings and tell people in coastal areas to stay at their beachfront property and take the boat out for a spin in the bay.

My prevailing sense is that the Bush Administration would like America to think that the U.S. government only began fighting terror Sept. 12, 2001, doing little before then. Reality -- and the 9-11 Commission conclusions -- state that fundamental breakdowns in the fight against terror were made by the Clinton AND Bush Administrations.

I think the Office of Homeland Security is nothing but a prop by the Bush Administration to convince Americans that more is being done to fight terror. Why is another bureaucratic agency needed to handle this job? Why can't the CIA, FBI, ATF and INS be held accountable to do their jobs properly? Why can't they take the additional funds earmarked by the Bush Administration for the fight on terror and do the job without creating yet another level of bureaucracy?

Instead, we get the classic big-government solution: Add more government. It's something at which the Democrats and Republicans are experts.

If you're voting Republican or Democrat this election, your vote comes down to whether you want big goverment or huge government. I'm still not sure which party represents which side, as Bush certainly looks like a traditional Democrat with his new bloated government agency and increased Federal spending.

Federal spending has increased 28.8 percent since Bush took office, with non-defense discretionary spending increasing 35.7 percent. That's the largest increase in 30 years -- from a so-called conservative!

There's also the issue of Bush's refusal to veto a single spending bill during his first term, which is ridiculous, especially from a so-called fiscal conservative. For historical perspective, the last President to not use the veto during his first term was Garfield in 1881, whose term lasted less than a year due to assassination.

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

Regarding being safer under Bush, the question I ask myself is this:

If we had not invaded Iraq, would 1000 Americans have died as a result of terror-related attacks between March 2003 and now?

Obviously, any answer is an opinion. But that thinking plays a lot into my opposition to the Iraqi war. Of course, you can argue that a sacrifice now could save many more lives later. I would agree with that if we had found WMD. Since we didn't....

I am also pretty sure that, had the Gore administration handled the War in Iraq the way Bush has, we'd have heard calls for impeachment from the right.

[Teal]

"On the same day as the Chechnya terror, I wonder how many Americans lost their jobs?"






Job Picture Brightens with More Hiring



Friday September 3, 9:23 AM EDT


By Glenn Somerville

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. job market brightened modestly in August as employers added 144,000 workers to their payrolls and hiring totals for the two prior months were revised up, the Labor Department reported on Friday.

[matthewk]

I've tried to stay out of this, I really have. I can stay silent no longer. Here come the random thoughts:

I lost my job 2 weeks ago due to downsizing. I do not give a flying f&*k about the war on terror right now, I have to worry about how I'm going to pay the mortgage. I have a 4 year degree, and have always been gotten excellent reviews on my work, so don't any of you smartasses say something stupid like "if you were any good you'd have a job". Lots of very good people are out looking for work right now, and I do not see anyone in goverment doing s&*t about it.

I am so sick of all the petty bickering about the swift boat issue. Everyone is trying to disect this to the most minute detail, and the main source of information is a bunch 60 year-olds relying on 35 year-old memories.

The Russian terrorists are NOT related to Bin Laden. This is a Russian issue that been going on within their country long before 9/11, so it has no bearing on us and Iraq, other than it's a bunch of lunatics killing people for their own twisted reasons. We have people in our own country that are hurting rightnow, and all people care about is swift boats and Iraq.

Afghanistan was the right thing to do, Iraq was not.

I want to hear BOTH candidates discuss things that are important to ME, and lifelong US citizen. I do not care about giving more rights to illegal immigrants. I care about getting a job. What is going to be done to REALLY improve the economy in this country? What about the insane rise in prices for things like gas, health care, and heating our homes? What is being done about education to insure that we as a country can successfully weather the outsourcing/China/India storm?

It is so frustrating watching so many people, from net posters to politicians bicker about details that happened 35 years ago, while countries like China and India quickly catch up (and someday soon) pass us by. They are focused on the good of their country while we all seem to be preoccupied with ourselves and each other.

[Parker]

"The Russian terrorists are NOT related to Bin Laden. This is a Russian issue that been going on within their country long before 9/11, so it has no bearing on us and Iraq, other than it's a bunch of lunatics killing people for their own twisted reasons. We have people in our own country that are hurting rightnow, and all people care about is swift boats and Iraq."

True, but the fact is the US has pledged to help end terrorism everywhere, not just those terrorists with the greatest likelihood to attack us. The war on terror is supposed to serve the entire world, not just our interests. Of course, that is all a big lie. As long as the terrorists in Russia stay in Russia, we won't do anything more to help the victims than verbal condolences.

[matthewk]

"On the same day as the Chechnya terror, I wonder how many Americans lost their jobs?"

Job Picture Brightens with More Hiring
By Glenn Somerville

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. job market brightened modestly in August as employers added 144,000 workers to their payrolls and hiring totals for the two prior months were revised up, the Labor Department reported on Friday.

I take this as good news, but it does not mean there is not a problem.

Keep in mind that due to the population constantly increasing, this number does not even absorb all of the new workers entering the job force. Also, we are still "in the red" in terms of jobs over the past 3 years. Bush will be going into election day with a net loss of jobs on his resume.

[blueduke]

Federal spending has increased 28.8 percent since Bush took office, with non-defense discretionary spending increasing 35.7 percent. That's the largest increase in 30 years -- from a so-called conservative!

You get no argument from me on this one, PK. Bush has spent money like a drunken sailor. Did the military need rebuilding? Yes. Did we need a tax cut? Yes. What really fries me though is all the pork barrel crap and creating new agencies such as "Homeland Security". Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the assumption all these years we already had it. It's called the CIA, FBI, All branches of the military, National Guard, local police, etc. That you totally nailed.

Where I do wander away from you though is it is my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) you think the president can somehow create jobs. He can't. He can let us keep more of our money (and it is our money). Lots of people have taken a hit financially even before 9/11. I say it's time the boys and girls on Capitol Hill take one too. There's a reason somebody would spend millions of dollars to win a congressional seat that pays what it does. BOTH sides are guilty of this but it only seems to be one side that wants to keep more of what we earn. If all these special intrest groups are sooooo special and they do soooo much, why not bypass a congressman on the take and just put the money in the treasury if making this country a better place is what they really want to do. I'm not holding my breath though.

[pk500]

"On the same day as the Chechnya terror, I wonder how many Americans lost their jobs?"






Job Picture Brightens with More Hiring



Friday September 3, 9:23 AM EDT


By Glenn Somerville

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. job market brightened modestly in August as employers added 144,000 workers to their payrolls and hiring totals for the two prior months were revised up, the Labor Department reported on Friday.

I guess you expect me to downplay this. I don't. It's good news, but I still care for guys like MattK a lot more than Bush or Kerry's ability as commander in chief.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

>>>He can't. He can let us keep more of our money (and it is our money).<<<

As a Libertarian, I agree 100 percent. I'm more fervent about tax cuts than probably any Republican.

But those tax cuts must be mated with similar cuts in Federal spending. It's simple home economics: You can't spend more than you take in, something the Bush Administration has failed to grasp.

You simply can't cut taxes and increase Federal spending. That's exactly what Bush has done, and it could have some nasty long-term implications on the American economy if it continues.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

Putin is going to depict the situation in Russia and Chenchnya as part of the WoT. But the truth is, when he was an unknown, he promoted a new war against Chenchnya in 2000 which helped him get elected.

The Russians were brutal in Chenchnya. Many analysts in the NSA believe he bred terrorism, not contain it. Many of these Chenchen terrorists are widows, sisters and girlfriends, etc. of Chenchen men whom the Russians killed.

In this case, a nation with overwhelming military power attacked an overmatched country which had no tanks or air force. Their response in this asymmetric war is predictably to go after "soft" targets.

[Teal]

"guess you expect me to downplay this. I don't. It's good news, but I still feel for guys like MattK a lot more than Bush or Kerry's ability as commander in chief. "



PK:
Nope. Just remembered seeing it before I came in here, and thought it was applicable to your question, that's all...


Matt:
Believe me when I say that I know exactly what you're going through. 2+years of working for Gamestop at minimum wage or barely over, obtaining my degree, and then waiting 8 months for a job that would do more than pay for my gas to get to work. I have a professional job now, but my wife and I are still pulling ourselves out of the hole that season of our lives dug for us. All of this going on while trying to take care of two boys, and wow, it was bad.
So I feel ya, bro...it sucks big time. Hang in there...