DSP Boxing thread. Ding! Ding!

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:05 pm

Fights off. PBF is a b*tch.

http://www.mlive.com/mayweather/index.s ... her-p.html

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:17 pm

pk500 wrote: It would give stooges like Dana White all the ammunition they need to further the myth that MMA has overtaken boxing in worldwide popularity and impact.

Take care,
PK

It hasn't?

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:49 pm

toonarmy wrote:
pk500 wrote: It would give stooges like Dana White all the ammunition they need to further the myth that MMA has overtaken boxing in worldwide popularity and impact.

Take care,
PK
It hasn't?

http://www.fightinsight.com/2009/09/28/ ... s-part-ii/

http://www.boxingforum.com/blogs/elemen ... lvary.html

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:27 pm

toonarmy wrote:
pk500 wrote: It would give stooges like Dana White all the ammunition they need to further the myth that MMA has overtaken boxing in worldwide popularity and impact.

Take care,
PK
It hasn't?

Uh, no. Two boxing PPV events this year have drawn 1.25 million buys or more. Not a single MMA PPV event has drawn 1 million this year.

When UFC went head-to-head with the Mayweather-Marquez fight in September, Dana White blustered that MMA would outdraw the boxing match.

Mayweather-Marquez drew nearly 1.5 million buys. UFC 9,427.05 didn't even draw half of that.

Other than promotion and commercial sponsorship, which admittedly are VERY important areas in which boxing needs a lot of help, I can't think of a single metric in which MMA trumps boxing. There's more purse money in boxing, more international coverage, more name recognition for elite fighters around the world, etc., etc.

For example, Mayweather and Pacquiao will earn an estimated $40 million each if the fight happens. The PPV buy estimates are reaching 3 million. No MMA event EVER has come close to those numbers for purse or PPV buys.

On to name recognition. Manny Pacquiao was mentioned as a candidate for SI Sportsman of the Year. Was Fedor Emelianko or Brock Lesnar? Manny Pacquiao was on the cover of the Asian edition of Time, which sold out and required a second printing of 50,000 more copies. Did any MMA fighter make the cover of Time throughout Asia?

I hardly ever see any coverage of MMA from media outside of North America. But I see coverage of boxing from worldwide media.

MMA is a cult sport that's riding a wave of sponsor-driven success right now since it's hot as hell in the coveted 18-34 white male demographic in the U.S. and Canada. But it doesn't carry all demographics worldwide like boxing.

Never has, probably never will.

Toon, you understand racing very well, so I'll make this analogy. MMA is the NASCAR of combat sports. It's hot right now, and it's marketed VERY well in the U.S. with a great free/cable TV package. But it can't compare to boxing for worldwide popularity, just like NASCAR can't compare to F1 for worldwide popularity despite its large, but cooling, following in the U.S.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:29 pm

Didn't UFC 100 do something like 1.5 million PPV buys in July?

I have no idea what the numbers would look like, but I'm curious as to how many total boxing PPV buys there were in 2009 vs MMA PPV buys. It seems like there are UFC PPVs every 3 or 4 weeks.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:33 pm

Ah ok, I didn't really know. I see all sorts of people wearing MMA shirts around but never see any boxing shirts. It seems like water cooler talk is much more about MMA than boxing. Also, I was under the impression that there are a ton of MMA ppvs each year as opposed to only a few big boxing draws on ppv each year. It seems to me as if MMA would be considered more popular if it can have so many PPVs with so many different fighters. That UFC 100 had 1.5 millions buys that HipE mentions is a pretty big eye opener for me. Considering that MMA has been around a much shorter time than boxing it's a pretty big sporting phenomenon that has sprung up in my view. I could care less about either sport, so I am just discussing this based on casual observations.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:41 pm

HipE wrote:Didn't UFC 100 do something like 1.5 million PPV buys in July?

I have no idea what the numbers would look like, but I'm curious as to how many total boxing PPV buys there were in 2009 vs MMA PPV buys. It seems like there are UFC PPVs every 3 or 4 weeks.

You are correct on UFC 100. I was W-R-O-N-G! But I believe it was the only MMA PPV over 1 million this year, while boxing had two.

UFC's total buys for the year exceed those of boxing because UFC has more PPV's per year than boxing.

I'll be the first to admit that UFC does an incredible job of marketing and promotion. Officials from De La Hoya's promotion company, Golden Boy, have admitted they are looking to MMA for promotional ideas and cues.

UFC also has better free and cable TV, something boxing needs.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:45 pm

toonarmy wrote:Ah ok, I didn't really know. I see all sorts of people wearing MMA shirts around but never see any boxing shirts. It seems like water cooler talk is much more about MMA than boxing. Also, I was under the impression that there are a ton of MMA ppvs each year as opposed to only a few big boxing draws on ppv each year. It seems to me as if MMA would be considered more popular if it can have so many PPVs with so many different fighters. That UFC 100 had 1.5 millions buys that HipE mentions is a pretty big eye opener for me. Considering that MMA has been around a much shorter time than boxing it's a pretty big sporting phenomenon that has sprung up in my view. I could care less about either sport, so I am just discussing this based on casual observations.

I'm guessing you're in that white, male 18-34 demographic. I'm not, and nobody in my peer group talks about MMA. But we still talk about boxing.

MMA definitely is a phenomenon that has caught fire with young American men, whose short attention spans, Velcro-like attachment to hot trends and Pavlovian obedience to excellent marketing are perfect for a well-run machine like UFC. No question. We'll see if it has legs.

It could. The only thing that might stop it is Dana White's hubris. He's a smart businessman, but he's also an arrogant jackass. Which side of Dana prevails will be very interesting.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:50 pm

There's also one HUGE obstacle that MMA needs to scale before it can go mainstream: MMA is illegal in New York state.

If New York lawmakers legalize MMA and the next big UFC card sells out Madison Square Garden (which it probably would), then that would put UFC center stage in the media capital of the world.

That would be a massive boon for MMA worldwide, as MSG still is seen by many as the Mecca of Boxing. It could help MMA explode in a similar fashion to how the first Brickyard 400 helped NASCAR's phenomenal growth, as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway previously was the famous domain only of Indy cars. Another motor racing analogy for you, my man.

Anyways, back to boxing ...

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:54 pm

pk500 wrote:
toonarmy wrote:Ah ok, I didn't really know. I see all sorts of people wearing MMA shirts around but never see any boxing shirts. It seems like water cooler talk is much more about MMA than boxing. Also, I was under the impression that there are a ton of MMA ppvs each year as opposed to only a few big boxing draws on ppv each year. It seems to me as if MMA would be considered more popular if it can have so many PPVs with so many different fighters. That UFC 100 had 1.5 millions buys that HipE mentions is a pretty big eye opener for me. Considering that MMA has been around a much shorter time than boxing it's a pretty big sporting phenomenon that has sprung up in my view. I could care less about either sport, so I am just discussing this based on casual observations.
I'm guessing you're in that white, male 18-34 demographic. I'm not, and nobody in my peer group talks about MMA. But we still talk about boxing.

MMA definitely is a phenomenon that has caught fire with young American men. No question. We'll see if it has legs.

It could. The only thing that might stop it is Dana White's hubris. He's a smart businessman, but he's also an arrogant jackass. Which side of Dana prevails will be very interesting.

Take care,
PK

It doesn't really matter what demographic I am in since I do not follow MMA other than having seen a couple ppvs for free. You are likely correct about the demographic being young people, but it seems like half the shirts I see on people with MMA stuff on them are females. If the current young demographic is so much into MMA then it would stand to reason they will not give up on MMA once they reach a certain age and start following boxing. Unless another fighting sport comes along that replaces MMA I would think the future is bright for MMA and not so bright for boxing since the demographic for boxing is aging and the sport is not gaining a lot of younger fans. It will be interesting to see what happens. I actually used to enjoy boxing, but the sport lost me somewhere along the way.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:01 pm

I think MMA always will appeal primarily to the 18-34 crowd. It's marketed almost exclusively to that group.

But you're right: Few, if any, of those fans are going to migrate to boxing if it's promoted and marketed as it is now.

Don't take this as racist, but one of the reasons MMA is successful with the 18-34 white male demographic in the U.S. is because it has a stable of successful white, American fighters.

I can count the number of world-class white American boxers on one hand. Let's see: Kelly Pavlik, Paulie Malignaggi, uh ... that's about it.

Sure, boxing crossed the color line when Ali, Frazier, Holmes and Tyson were at their peak. But one of the dominant undercurrents of all the Ali-Frazier fights was that Ali was the black man's fighter while Frazier was the white man's Uncle Tom. That myth was promoted by none other than Ali.

But there's no question that one of the more anticipated bouts of the early 80s was Gerry Cooney vs. Larry Holmes. On the surface, Cooney wasn't in Holmes' class. But he was The Great White Hope. Hell, that's what Don King called him all the time in the pre-fight promotion. And Cooney fought marvelously that night, losing in the 13th.

But it certainly doesn't hurt MMA's popularity with white males that its heavyweight champion, Lesnar, and some of its most popular recent fighters such as Liddell, Shamrock, Hughes and Couture are white American dudes.

Boxing also is hurt because the media orbit rotates around the heavyweight division, which is a mess. The robotic Russians and their satellites are dominating the class, led by the Ukrainian barons of boredom, the Klitschko brothers. There also isn't an American heavyweight worth a sh*t right now.

But the lower weight classes are SO flush with talent right now. That's why it's vital for this Pacquiao-Mayweather fight to happen, to show the media and general public that boxing is alive and well beneath 200 pounds.

A great Pacman-Money fight could usher in a golden era for the lighter weights that the sport hasn't seen since the 80s, when greats like Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Arguello, Pryor and more either were household sports names or on the fringes of household status.

Toon, if you get ESPN Classic and you ever see the Jose Luis Castillo-Diego Corrales fight from 2005 listed, take an hour and watch it. It's arguably one of the five best fights in history, and it took place only four years ago. That fight is on about once per month because the term "classic" sells that bout so short. It's that good!

Appreciate your curiosity about combat sports in this thread, man.

Take care,
PK

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:49 pm

I don't know about the whole race thing since I think people will rally behind any great fighter regardless of race. You are correct about the lack of a great American heavyweight in boxing. Mass appeal tends to be with the heavyweight division more than any other division. Personally, I followed the sport back when there were quite a few great American heavyweights. The 1970s and 1980s had a slew of strong fighters, and I should mention the fights were readily accessible for free, whether it be on network TV or on the radio. I can remember listening to title fights on the radio when I did not have a TV near me, or the fight was not on TV for whatever reason. Maybe boxing can become mainstream again if it becomes better structured, less corrupt, and can get several American heavyweights that gain the interest of the public. A badass heavyweight champ with a couple legit badass contenders wouldn't hurt.

backbreaker · Post by **backbreaker** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:29 am

Keep getting under their skin PBF, these bitches can't handle it, the same people screaming for testing bonds all of a sudden want to make a mockery of drug testing go figure.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:52 am

backbreaker wrote:Keep getting under their skin PBF, these bitches can't handle it, the same people screaming for testing bonds all of a sudden want to make a mockery of drug testing go figure.

Bonds? WTF are you talking about? Mockery of drug testing? Who? Boxing has its own drug testing. That's one of the reasons why Pacman refused to do the Olympic-style drug test. The only fighter that would fail a "Dope" test would be Floyd. He let Floyd Sr start all this bullshit.

Pacquiao has passed every test in all his fights in the United States and all his other matches for the last 13 years, stressed Alex Ariza, Pacquiao’s diet and conditioning guru.

“I was talking to Freddie [Roach, Pacquiao’s trainer], and he told me Manny will fight Paulie Malignaggi, Yuri Foreman or Juan Manuel Marquez [if the fight falls through],” Ariza said in a telephone interview.

“Floyd Mayweather can’t push us around and impose unreasonable conditions.”

Arum said he presented an alternative drug-testing proposal that combines both blood tests and urine tests to be conducted by reputable agencies serving professional sports like football, basketball and baseball.

Arum said Pacquiao will submit to three blood tests—when the fight is formally announced, 30 days before and immediately after fight in his locker room—plus any number of random urine tests as requested.

“Manny has no problem about testing because he and his entire team are all for it. It’s about who does the testing, the scheduling and the procedures,” explained Arum, who also noted that Pacquiao is squeamish about his blood being drawn too close to the fight.

My son is currently training with the US Jr Olympic Boxing Team. He routinely passes out whenever he has any amount of blood taken, I can understand why Pacquiao would not want random testing the week before the fight.

Arum said. “It’s harassment of Manny, that’s all it is. They’re playing mind games and one of their games could be to pop up and say, at the weigh in, 'OK we now demand a blood test.'

“The testing by the Nevada commission is more than adequate to catch any malefactors,” Arum said, resorting to one of his learned-at-Harvard-Law-School words. “But Mayweather is bigger than the commission. Mayweather is bigger than the sport itself.

“Because his idiot of a father (Floyd Senior) says Manny is cheating with drugs that justifies everything. They can test Manny at any other time they want to, we don’t have a problem with that, but not right before the fight. They want to harass him psychologically.”

Arum said he and duBoef extended an offer of a “caught dirty” penalty to apply to both boxers.

“I sent Todd in like my Neville Chamberlain (British prime minister who preceded Winston Churchill and who appeased Adolf Hitler) to settle it that way,” Arum said.

“We named some crazy amounts of money here., really anything they want…make it $5 million or $10 million, that is fine. But they weren’t interested.”

This is the best take I've read on all this bullshit.
http://www.mannypacquiaovs.com/index.ph ... ectations/

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:12 am

Jack-diggity:

Dom took the plunge with the Jr. Olympic team? That's FANTASTIC. Post video if it's available!

I know you were considering the invite the last time we talked. Damn, it's been too long. Let's talk soon and catch up.

Merry Christmas to you and the Dingess clan.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:25 pm

pk500 wrote:Jack-diggity:

Dom took the plunge with the Jr. Olympic team? That's FANTASTIC. Post video if it's available!

I know you were considering the invite the last time we talked. Damn, it's been too long. Let's talk soon and catch up.

Merry Christmas to you and the Dingess clan.

Take care,
PK

Same to the Kelly clan!!!!

Dom has been working out with the team for 2 months. Good stuff!!!

What's your take on this fight Paul? I really respect your opinion on this great sport and it's state.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:41 pm

I applaud Pacman for what he plans on doing and in the process he's also making PBF look like he's scared to fight him.

Pacquiao plans to sue Mayweather

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8430611.stm

Quote from Pacman: "I have no idea what steroids look like and my fear in God has kept me safe and victorious through all these years.

"Now, I say to Floyd Mayweather Jr, don't be a coward and face me in the ring, mano-a-mano and shut your big, pretty mouth so we can show the world who is the true king of the ring."

edit: Oh and welcome back JackD

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:30 pm

Rodster wrote:I applaud Pacman for what he plans on doing and in the process he's also making PBF look like he's scared to fight him.

Pacquiao plans to sue Mayweather

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8430611.stm

Quote from Pacman: "I have no idea what steroids look like and my fear in God has kept me safe and victorious through all these years.

"Now, I say to Floyd Mayweather Jr, don't be a coward and face me in the ring, mano-a-mano and shut your big, pretty mouth so we can show the world who is the true king of the ring."

edit: Oh and welcome back JackD

Thanks brother. Manny sounds pissed.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:32 pm

JackDog wrote:Manny sounds pissed.

He officially is as he filed a lawsuit against PBF, Golden Boy Promotions and several others:

Manny Pacquiao issues Floyd Mayweather Jr with lawsuit

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8430611.stm

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:08 pm

Rodster wrote:
JackDog wrote:Manny sounds pissed.
He officially is as he filed a lawsuit against PBF, Golden Boy Promotions and several others:

Manny Pacquiao issues Floyd Mayweather Jr with lawsuit

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8430611.stm

Mayweather's team tried to diffuse the issue in a statement last week.

It read: "Let it be very clear that nobody from Team Mayweather or Golden Boy Promotions is accusing Pacquiao of anything.

Mayweather Sr didn't get that memo.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:27 pm

JackDog wrote:
Mayweather's team tried to diffuse the issue in a statement last week.

It read: "Let it be very clear that nobody from Team Mayweather or Golden Boy Promotions is accusing Pacquiao of anything.
Mayweather Sr didn't get that memo.

Yup, his dog must have ate it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:29 pm

I am no fan of Dana White or UFC, but the man definitely is talking sense about Pacquiao-Mayweather:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/1/1/122 ... acquiao-vs

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:05 pm

pk500 wrote:I am no fan of Dana White or UFC, but the man definitely is talking sense about Pacquiao-Mayweather:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/1/1/122 ... acquiao-vs

I agree.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:22 am

The fight is off.

I'm absolutely disgusted. No point in directing blame to either side. BOTH SIDES are comprised of idiots and thieves, including the fighters.

This impasse will have large long-term repercussions for boxing, which was just starting to reawaken in the public eye after numerous excellent fights in 2008 and 2009. One of the reasons for that renaissance was the thawing of relations between Top Rank and Golden Boy, which worked together the last two years to promote big fights after a lengthy feud.

Now that feud may resume, and we'll see crap fights like Foreman-Pacquiao and Mayweather-Matthew Hatton as a result.

Plus this fight captivated the attention of the average sports fan, who recently has seen boxing as corrupt and unorganized. Now this impasse between Mayweather and Pacquiao only strengthens that stereotype with Joe Sixpack Sports Fan, who already has lost whatever rekindled interest he has in the sport.

A joke. A cruel joke.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:23 pm

If blame must be assigned here, it's should clearly be placed on Mayweather. His camp's accusations that Pacquiao is on steroids or other drugs due to his climb through weight classes are ABSURD.

Just look at the damn facts. Mayweather has fought through a wider weight range from age 16 to now than Pacquiao. Mayweather was National Golden Gloves champion at 106 at age 16. Pacquiao debuted as a pro at 107 at age 16. Mayweather has fought many times at 147 and even at 154 once. Pacquiao has fought only THREE TIMES his entire career above 135.

Mayweather never has insisted on random blood testing for any other fight. Pacquiao has passed every drug test he's ever taken and has climbed through a smaller weight range in his career than Mayweather.

The state of Nevada only requires urinalysis, yet Pacquiao has agreed to limited random blood testing and two set blood tests. He even compromised on the deadline for the last random test, dropping from 30 days to 24. Mayweather made ZERO compromises, even after urging from his promoters and managers Wednesday.

Put it all in a blender, and it's easy to see the recipe of the putrid resulting cocktail: Mayweather never wanted this fight. He's running scared, as usual. And this time he can't lean on the support of his promoters or managers since they urged him to accept the terms and compromises negotiated by the mediator. And he refused.

Floyd is on an island of fear and arrogance right now. And it has put an indelible stain on the great sport of boxing and tattered the fabric of his legacy in the sport. When casual boxing fans think of Floyd Mayweather five years from now, they will think of a guy who ran away from the only fight that mattered.

Nice work, Floyd. You've confirmed what many boxing fans have believed for the last five years: You're a coward, plain and simple.