Backbreaker Preview - Natural Motion based football title

[matthewk]

I pretty much agree with JRods sentiments. If they just toned down the defense and improved the CPU offense a bit, I'd be more than happy for year 1.

I'm not concerned with 100% stat accuracy, because for a fictional league, who's to say what is accurate? Should BB mirror NFL, NCAA, AFL, or CFL stats? I really don't care, I just want it to be fun.

[Sport73]

Maybe it's crazy, but I a starting to believe that some of the turnovers can be controlled by better play. Rally and I have played several games over the last 3 nights, but just wrapped up a classic he won 20-17.

What made this particular game stand out was that we had ZERO interceptions the entire game, except for one in the last 10 seconds when I threw the hail Mary to try to get into FG range.

Rally threw for over 300 yards, while I put together a solid ground game with 103 rushing yards and 170 in the air. Both QB's completed the majority of their passes, and there were only 3 sacks and no fumbles.

Those are very realistic stats, and the only difference is that we're both getting good at play selection, finding the open man, picking up the blitz, and getting passes off quickly. Could it be that this game will be more balanced when you play it like actual football? Is part of the problem that Madden has conditioned us to the 15 second and 30-yard drop-back, but we need to learn to get rid of the football by 3 mississippi or get pummeled?

One game does not an opinion make, but we're definitely trending toward far fewer turnovers as we play better football.

[JRod]

Sport,

I think this is the case of the user play can tone down the interceptions but since I only play offline, I don't know how to make the AI better.

I did notice that the safeties move to where you are looking. There's just so much going on under the hood going on that is ruined by the overpowering defense.

[ScoopBrady]

Humans throwing interceptions is not the problem, Sport. The cpu will throw anywhere from 5-9 per game on hard.

I was playing as the Chicago Talons which has a good defense with playmaking corners. I tried playing as another team tonight (can't remember which one) that had a crappy defense against a middle of the road team. The cpu only threw 3 interceptions which is a definite improvement. The problem is the cpu quarterback only completed 4 passes all game and that is also the norm. My god, what I'd give for the ability to be able to edit player ratings.

Tomorrow I might try creating 2 teams with 11 gold players on offense and 0 on defense and see what happens when I play. Maybe creating a league full of teams with offenses in the 70's and defenses in the 30's could reduce the frustration I'm having.

[dbdynsty25]

Man this game...so cool and so sh*tty all at the same time.

First defensive drive of the game after receiving my copy from gamefly...3 roughing the punter penalties extending the drive, culminating in a 40 yard field goal attempt in 10mph wind that I catch on the 5 yard line and return to the 40. Awesome start.

[ScoopBrady]

Stayed up way later than I should have testing something. I created 2 teams with balanced offenses, balanced defenses, and a discipline of focus. I gave each team 11 gold players on offense and 1 on defense (I couldn't give them 0). The results of my game were much better than any other ones.

For starters, the cpu qb went 10 of 20 for 139 yards, 1 td and 1 int. That's right, 1 int. 1. The cpu qb. He was only sacked once as well. And to put the cherry on top of the cpu qb sundae he did not throw a single completion for negative yards.

I lost the game 31-17 on Hard difficulty. My offense did not play so well. In fact, I must have channeled the cpu qb of past games because I threw 6 picks in what can only be described as a Rex Grossmanesque performance. I was also sacked 5 times. I'm not concerned with that because I can control my int's and I hadn't thrown more than 2 in previous games.

This might be the way to go for single player games but not all was well in Backbreaker land. I still saw some crazy AI s*** going on. With a 31-17 lead with under 30 seconds left in the game, the cpu called two defensive timeouts to stop the clock and try to get the ball back They got the ball back and instead of kneeling on the ball they ran a play.

[TCrouch]

This game sounds absolutely bizarre. I'm sure I could have some fun with it, but apparently DB was one of the pricks who had it from Gamefly immediately, so now it's "Low" availability and I probably won't get it for weeks.

I've never seen such a polarizing game. The demo did nothing for me, but a Gamefly rental won't hurt.

[dougb]

Bought the game and a few comments:

While the physics are amazing, much of the rest of the game is shockingly bad - and I mean shockingly.

The reports on the offensive AI don't really do justice to it's sheer offensiveness. In 5 plays the the AI quarterback threw the ball behind him and out of bounds 3 times. Pathetic. It's not just that there's just no sense of any football awareness on the part of the AI, it's that the AI does incredibly boneheaded things that just defy comprehension. And not just in the play calling but in the actual execution of the plays.

I have to agree with Danimal and Bill Abner - what we have in this game is little better than a tech demo. To fix all the things that are wrong in the game is going to require a pretty extensive patch and I just don't know if it's doable. There's no way that the game should have been released in its present state. And to compare it to the original NFL2K is a travesty - that game certainly had issues but this one needs to be locked away under guard until it's various psychoses can be dealt with.

This isn't just a pretty woman with a bad case of gas. It's a pretty woman with a gangrenous leg.

Best wishes,

Doug

[GTHobbes]

Maybe it's crazy, but I a starting to believe that some of the turnovers can be controlled by better play. Rally and I have played several games over the last 3 nights, but just wrapped up a classic he won 20-17.

If they do make a BB2, I hope they don't even try to replicate a bunch of the "features" that other football games have come up with over the years and instead add something unique like online spectator mode (with either a TV style broadcast or a seat-in-the-stadium view), as I'd probably really enjoy watching a game like this, especially if I was in a league with you guys.

From the 2 online games I played last night, it seemed like the "form" setting really made a big difference for how my guys played. In the first game, my opponent had "form" set to "average" and Bradshaw was having all kinds of trouble hitting his intended receivers. When I hosted the next game and set "form" back to "very good," which is how I have been setting it all week, Bradshaw started the game 9 for his first 11 and was putting the ball right where it needed to be pretty much though out the game. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I'm going to watch to see if it appears to make any difference in the next games I play.

[Sport73]

GT,

Now at you mention it; I had Form set to very good for last night's great game as well.

[Brando70]

For starters, the cpu qb went 10 of 20 for 139 yards, 1 td and 1 int. That's right, 1 int. 1. The cpu qb. He was only sacked once as well. And to put the cherry on top of the cpu qb sundae he did not throw a single completion for negative yards.

So let me get this straight: you basically gave the CPU offense every advantage, and it still only completed 50% of its passes?

[dbdynsty25]

This game sounds absolutely bizarre. I'm sure I could have some fun with it, but apparently DB was one of the pricks who had it from Gamefly immediately, so now it's "Low" availability and I probably won't get it for weeks.

Correct. I plan it that way...always getting the new games right when they release, then if I like em, buy them for like 43 or 44 dollars as a "keep it". It's a nice way to save 15 bucks a game. Hell, Backbreaker is only 34 bucks keep it! That may be a bit high tho.

[TCrouch]

I try to also, as I had a free game slot available for a full week before it shipped--but I forgot I also had Alpha Protocol in there and it released the same day. It was second on the list, but apparently they skipped BB and sent me that instead.

[JRod]

Bought the game and a few comments:

While the physics are amazing, much of the rest of the game is shockingly bad - and I mean shockingly.

The reports on the offensive AI don't really do justice to it's sheer offensiveness. In 5 plays the the AI quarterback threw the ball behind him and out of bounds 3 times. Pathetic. It's not just that there's just no sense of any football awareness on the part of the AI, it's that the AI does incredibly boneheaded things that just defy comprehension. And not just in the play calling but in the actual execution of the plays.

I have to agree with Danimal and Bill Abner - what we have in this game is little better than a tech demo. To fix all the things that are wrong in the game is going to require a pretty extensive patch and I just don't know if it's doable. There's no way that the game should have been released in its present state. And to compare it to the original NFL2K is a travesty - that game certainly had issues but this one needs to be locked away under guard until it's various psychoses can be dealt with.

This isn't just a pretty woman with a bad case of gas. It's a pretty woman with a gangrenous leg.

Best wishes,

Doug

I think we need to dig a little on WHAT is causing the bad play. The AI isn't horrible. People think that's the case but it's really just the defense on both sides is just too dominating. The AI has no time to do anything. It seems that unlike Madden where they give it all-powerful knowledge, the AI doesn't get that advantage here. It seems that it plays under the same system the user does. Which means it has zero time to pass and can't run. Which is the exact same problem the user has.

The DBs are simply too good and fast. When coupled by the CPU trajectory problems you have a mess with INTs. Backbreaker fell into the same exact trap Madden fell into with DB play, the defenders play for the interception and not the man. That wouldn't help in this case because they would still be able to shut down the offense. There is swat animations in the game but if the defenders are anywhere near a interception they rarely go into that animation.

While the game is unbalanced to point where it kills gameplay, it's a falsehood to say that AI is the problem. This is the easy way out. The amazing thing is that the AI is facing the same problems the user faces with zero artificial help. To me that means the game has a lot of things right underneath the hood.

As the AI throwing to the wrong play, I bet the problem here again is that no one is open, and the pressure is getting to the QB so he just throw the ball into a bad situation that gives every advantage to the defender.

[ScoopBrady]

The human player has a throw away button so to extend your claim that the AI is so good why doesn't the cpu throw the ball away instead of dumping it to a guy 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage when under pressure?

The cpu and myself both have the ability to call timeouts yet I call them to preserve time on the clock when I'm behind late in the game and they call them to preserve time on the clock when they're ahead late in the game.

I basically mostly disagree with your take JRod. I do agree that the defense is overpowered to an extent based upon my little experiment playing 2 teams with 70's rated offenses and 40's rated defenses and seeing the success of both teams offensively improving. But I have no problem running or passing in this game but the cpu does. Sure I'll have games where my running game doesn't get going but my passing game is so I abandon the running game. I'll have games where I'm chewing up the yards on the ground but my passing game stinks so I focus on the running game. I'll also have games where I have both going or can't get either going. My point is I adapt based upon the results I'm seeing on the field. The cpu does not have that ability. The cpu does not adapt their game based upon the results. That makes shutting them down way too easy.

AI extends beyond knowing what my assignments are on defense or knowing to throw to the safety valve under pressure as a quarterback. IMO the cpu in Backbreaker has the most basic understanding of football and simple logic but it is very shallow and not nearly as highly intelligent as you are suggesting.

[JRod]

The human player has a throw away button so to extend your claim that the AI is so good why doesn't the cpu throw the ball away instead of dumping it to a guy 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage when under pressure?

The cpu and myself both have the ability to call timeouts yet I call them to preserve time on the clock when I'm behind late in the game and they call them to preserve time on the clock when they're ahead late in the game.

I basically mostly disagree with your take JRod. I do agree that the defense is overpowered to an extent based upon my little experiment playing 2 teams with 70's rated offenses and 40's rated defenses and seeing the success of both teams offensively improving. But I have no problem running or passing in this game but the cpu does. Sure I'll have games where my running game doesn't get going but my passing game is so I abandon the running game. I'll have games where I'm chewing up the yards on the ground but my passing game stinks so I focus on the running game. I'll also have games where I have both going or can't get either going. My point is I adapt based upon the results I'm seeing on the field. The cpu does not have that ability. The cpu does not adapt their game based upon the results. That makes shutting them down way too easy.

AI extends beyond knowing what my assignments are on defense or knowing to throw to the safety valve under pressure as a quarterback. IMO the cpu in Backbreaker has the most basic understanding of football and simple logic but it is very shallow and not nearly as highly intelligent as you are suggesting.

The throw away button in every football game, Madden, NFL 2k and BB was not used so I guess you can grade BB on that curve but then Madden would fail that test.

It's doubtful that anyone can get a clear picture of the AI with the defenses so good. I see it try to run and get stuffed. I see it pass more when down. IF the AI logic is also tied to the coaches playbook then what I see is plays designed for that situation. It will call a draw on long pass plays.

To test it out go to the options and turn "seeing routes" -- it will show the play the CPU is running. It isn't calling a truly braindead game. There are problems in late game AI, sometime going for it deep in their zone (very very rare) and some others.

You correspond AI ability with adaptation. That's fine but how can it adapt when the defense is so good. What you want and this doesn't exist in any football game. Is if you keep sending blitzes more guys stay to block or you design pass routes to get one-on-one chances. I would love to see the AI attack the weaker players on the run or blitz the weaker members of the OL.

I don't see this adaptive AI in any other football game. I don't see it in Madden. Madden handles AI in a very certain way. The plays are like puzzle peices and some defenses match up perfectly to an offensive play. Regardless of how good the offense is, more than likely that play will not work not because of ability.

Other defensive play have holes in them, where the CPU players never individually react and just follow their assignments. Either the outlet option will be wide open, or the slot will have the middle to themselves. This isn't AI as much as rigid player assignments and unadaptive AI.


As for outlets, BB suffers from a route running problem that both NFL 2k and Madden (pre-10) suffered from. The QB too often leads the outlet wrong creating negative yardage or a fumble on an incomplete pass.

Back to AI, the problem still exists that no matter if the CPU is adapting, it simply gets overpowered by the defense. I'm not saying there isn't AI issues or that it's not as evolved as NFL 2k, APF or Madden. How can it be really? But the culprit of the gameplay is the imbalance of the offense to the defense. Even if it did apapt like you said, it would make a difference because the DL can still blow past the OL. LBs can react to any play quickly. And defenders can always cover WRs.

[dougb]

Bought the game and a few comments:

While the physics are amazing, much of the rest of the game is shockingly bad - and I mean shockingly.

The reports on the offensive AI don't really do justice to it's sheer offensiveness. In 5 plays the the AI quarterback threw the ball behind him and out of bounds 3 times. Pathetic. It's not just that there's just no sense of any football awareness on the part of the AI, it's that the AI does incredibly boneheaded things that just defy comprehension. And not just in the play calling but in the actual execution of the plays.

I have to agree with Danimal and Bill Abner - what we have in this game is little better than a tech demo. To fix all the things that are wrong in the game is going to require a pretty extensive patch and I just don't know if it's doable. There's no way that the game should have been released in its present state. And to compare it to the original NFL2K is a travesty - that game certainly had issues but this one needs to be locked away under guard until it's various psychoses can be dealt with.

This isn't just a pretty woman with a bad case of gas. It's a pretty woman with a gangrenous leg.

Best wishes,

Doug

I think we need to dig a little on WHAT is causing the bad play. The AI isn't horrible. People think that's the case but it's really just the defense on both sides is just too dominating. The AI has no time to do anything. It seems that unlike Madden where they give it all-powerful knowledge, the AI doesn't get that advantage here. It seems that it plays under the same system the user does. Which means it has zero time to pass and can't run. Which is the exact same problem the user has.

The DBs are simply too good and fast. When coupled by the CPU trajectory problems you have a mess with INTs. Backbreaker fell into the same exact trap Madden fell into with DB play, the defenders play for the interception and not the man. That wouldn't help in this case because they would still be able to shut down the offense. There is swat animations in the game but if the defenders are anywhere near a interception they rarely go into that animation.

While the game is unbalanced to point where it kills gameplay, it's a falsehood to say that AI is the problem. This is the easy way out. The amazing thing is that the AI is facing the same problems the user faces with zero artificial help. To me that means the game has a lot of things right underneath the hood.

As the AI throwing to the wrong play, I bet the problem here again is that no one is open, and the pressure is getting to the QB so he just throw the ball into a bad situation that gives every advantage to the defender.

I can see some merit in your point about the offensive line getting overpowered by the dline - I'm at a loss as to how this wouldn't have been caught and addressed in testing given the impact it has on the AI offense. And I still think it doesn't explain why the quarterback would throw the ball so poorly to the sideline. I like others also find it extremely curious how limited the replay camera angle is and it suggests to me that the AI problems are much more extensive than generally acknowledged - a fact that the limited camera views help to disguise.

I did play another game where the AI wasn't quite as inept offensively. However extensive work is required to take it to the point where playing it would be actually fun rather than an exercise in frustration and exasperation.

Best wishes,

Doug

[ScoopBrady]

JRod, I'll just admit that we don't see eye to eye on what makes up good AI. I actually like to see the intelligence part as well as the ability. You seem to be focused on cpu ability when it comes to AI. I agree that the defense is more powerful than the offense but I vehemently disagree that the AI in this game is good and not a cause of some of the problems. The problems with the game are equal parts defensive ability and dumb AI IMO. When I see a cpu team field a punt in their endzone and on top of that run it out to start a drive at their own 7-yard-line there's a serious problem with the AI. I don't know how you can say otherwise.

Now to move on, I created another team, this time I copied the Buffalo Beasts and did the old 11 gold players on offense with only 1 on defense. I made their offensive specialty passing and their defensive specialty balanced. I set their team bias to agility. The results were even better than the first test. There were still too many sacks and the running game wasn't as effective as it could be but overall it made it a much more fun game.

The cpu quarterback went 15 of 24 for 219 yards throwing 2 touchdowns and 3 interceptions. The 3rd interception was in the last seconds when the cpu was trying to make something happen on a 4th and long in their own end. Overall I'd say another improved game from the cpu offense.

Those that have the game and are interested in single player should try to create teams (or just copy some already created teams) and give 11 gold players to the offense and only the 1 to the defense. Make the offense a passing team and don't make the defense good in the secondary. This seems to be providing much better single-player results on Hard with the form set to Very Good.

[JRod]

JRod, I'll just admit that we don't see eye to eye on what makes up good AI. I actually like to see the intelligence part as well as the ability. You seem to be focused on cpu ability when it comes to AI. I agree that the defense is more powerful than the offense but I vehemently disagree that the AI in this game is good and not a cause of some of the problems. The problems with the game are equal parts defensive ability and dumb AI IMO. When I see a cpu team field a punt in their endzone and on top of that run it out to start a drive at their own 7-yard-line there's a serious problem with the AI. I don't know how you can say otherwise.

Because that's not the serious issue with the game. Is it annoying they field punts in their own end zone, sure, but that's a nuisance at this point.

I guess I'm looking at how the CPU plays (which is also the 10 other guys on my team). The quirks like fielding is a punt is a first year thing where I can live with it this year. I can live with some bugs. I can't live with the off-balance gameplay.

Now if this was Madden, you would have a point. But I expected the game to have a few first year problems so I can live with those.

[Danimal]

Here is a deal for 360 owners. I'm still holding out, something tells me this will be $20 within a month.

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view ... l-Xbox-360

[GTHobbes]

Here is a deal for 360 owners. I'm still holding out, something tells me this will be $20 within a month.

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view ... l-Xbox-360

That's awesome. I hope this game finds its way into as many homes as possible. Some are bound to really like it.

[matthewk]

I did the same thing last night that Scoop has been doing. I took a number of existing teams and used the team creator to copy them. The only changes I made to the teams was to give them all between 7-11 gold offensive players and only 1-3 defensive ones.

I managed to get in 2 full games last night. 5 minute quqrters, form on very good, hard difficulty. I used created (well, copied) teams for both sides.

The offense for both seemed to be improved in both games. Still some quick sacks and WTF interceptions, but not nearly as many. I still throw too many INTs, but some of that is on me as I learn how to pass in this game.

Bottom line is, that copying teams and stacking the offense for those teams does improve the game. I'd still love to see a patch to address some of the othe issues that this will not solve, but it's a start, and I'm still having fun.

[DookieMowf]

Here is a deal for 360 owners. I'm still holding out, something tells me this will be $20 within a month.

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view ... l-Xbox-360

Pretty good deal. If there are $20 in a month, who will want it though? NCAA will almost be out and Madden a month later. Maybe I'll give it a shot around Christmas when it's cheaper.

[ScoopBrady]

I did the same thing last night that Scoop has been doing. I took a number of existing teams and used the team creator to copy them. The only changes I made to the teams was to give them all between 7-11 gold offensive players and only 1-3 defensive ones.

I managed to get in 2 full games last night. 5 minute quqrters, form on very good, hard difficulty. I used created (well, copied) teams for both sides.

The offense for both seemed to be improved in both games. Still some quick sacks and WTF interceptions, but not nearly as many. I still throw too many INTs, but some of that is on me as I learn how to pass in this game.

Bottom line is, that copying teams and stacking the offense for those teams does improve the game. I'd still love to see a patch to address some of the othe issues that this will not solve, but it's a start, and I'm still having fun.

I think that's another reason why I'm seeing more of what's wrong with the cpu AI. When you do this it cuts down on the advantage the defense has in the game and exposes more of what is wrong with the AI. For me, having played 3 games using the convert to Create-a-team method has made the game way more enjoyable. There are things that still bother the everloving s*** out of me but I have managed to find fun in the single-player experience. Man, if they would just give us the ability to edit player abilities.

[matthewk]

I wish they would've let us edit the player abilties too. Too many of the QBs seem to be rated low, even on the teams with a lot of Gold offensive players.

I'm not getting too hung up on some of the issues like receivers getting run over in routes without any flag being thrown. I just chalk that up to "It's not the NFL" and accpet it as part of the football world of BB.