OT: Racing 2007 (Spoiler Alert)

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:39 pm

PK, I'd rather see a young kid making mistakes too if I thought for one second that they were good enough to be there. Honda had James Rossiter and Andreas Zuber testing for them in Barcelona today, and I can't advocate giving them a drive ahead of Rubens any more than I can advocate them giving my sister a race seat for 2008.

It's not necessarily that I think Rubens, DC and Trulli are due an Indian summer (at least one of those men has already had theirs), more that I feel they're at least competent enough to keep on for another year if the alternative is Zuber, Maldonado, Rodriguez, Ammermuller or whoever. Give the new blood a chance, yes, if it's good enough.

Am I allowed to say I follow NASCAR closely? Something that struck me during the Phoenix broadcast was the pronunciation of Jacques Villeneuve's name - at least, I assume that's who this rookie Vilnoove is.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:55 pm

Adam:

You're looking at the standard pool of F1 prospects. There are more out there, if F1 looked outside the box.

At least Bourdais is getting his worthy chance. But what about Wheldon? What about a guy like Andy Priaulx? Everyone says Gary Paffett isn't good enough. I find it hard to believe that he's worse than De La Rosa. Glock must be decent since both Toyota and BMW are in a tug-of-love over his services. Nico Hulkenberg deserves at least an extended test. Michael Ammermuller is pretty good. Andi Zuber is quick. So is Bruno Senna.

There are plenty of worthy young talents out there who at least would try to wring more from the car than has-beens like Rubens, DC, Fisi and Trulli. Thankfully it looks like the ride on the gravy train is over for Ralf, who has parlayed a last name into an F1 career that should have ended about three years ago.

I'm just sick of seeing these same retreads cling to an F1 ride because they're a pair of safe hands. More accurately, a pair of safe, slow hands.

Nothing wrong with following NASCAR, mate! I have watched all but two races this season on the DVR. Yep, Jerry Punch butchered the pronunciation of Villeneuve's name!

P.S.: Did everyone see who topped the testing time sheets today at Barcelona? One M. Schumacher, driving a 2007 Ferrari for the first time. The man clearly still has it!

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:16 pm

PK it's funny you mentioned the Ross, Stepney link because prior to the end of the season and reading about the Todt news whether he was stepping down or not. I was asking myself the same question.

If Stepney was booted out of Ferrari was Brawn going to be linked in association with his old friend? I guess he was. Also you are right Ferrari one without Brawn and thankfully management was able to groom a younger generation.

Yeah wrt Button if his car sux in 2008 I want to see myself if he'll stick around. My guess is he will because all of the good seats will have been locked up by then.

Also as Bernie said last year, it would be best for Button to stay and end his career with Honda because he's already shot his wad. Thanks Bernie.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:39 pm

PK, looking at your list, only Wheldon and Priaulx would be 'thinking outside the box' for me - did Wheldon not torpedo his own F1 chances a few years back? Andy Priaulx is 33 years old and hasn't driven a single seater in anger since 2001, and I couldn't put Senna or Zuber in a Formula One car for a season yet - if teams were willing to blood drivers over a season or two in the race team then yes, go for it, but there's a short-termism about things now that doesn't allow for that. What I might go with, though, is giving them a year of testing, seeing how they go and shuffling the old guard out at mid-season if it's clearly worthwhile (the Villeneuve Manoeuvre).

A few years ago I'd have had Tom Kristensen in an F1 car in a heartbeat. I don't disagree with the Priaulx choice, much as it'd never happen. Craig Lowndes would have been good, I'd have liked to see Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart, but people develop their own niche. Mid-grid in F1 or top of the class in tourers or sportscars? The top rides are taken by the established big guns (and neither of us are going to shuffle Raikkonen or Hamilton out of their cars), so you're going to Toyota or Toro Rosso or somewhere, and if you're succeeding in your present discipline, what's the point? Sure, the teams don't offer, but those fellas would be, or would have been, nuts to accept if the Mundano Racing Group had come a-knocking.

Edit: The Schumacher thing...I looked at some pictures from testing today, and the whole thing was scarily familiar, like he hadn't ever left.

Edity edit: That short-termism I mentioned? I do realise that a big part of your point, PK, is that the attitude the teams have to their driver employment isn't always quite right, but...it's how it is, and so it's how I tend to approach likely driver signings too. Not saying for a second that Senna isn't a better long-term choice than old Rubinho, for example, but a better short-term option he isn't, yet.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:45 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
Edit: The Schumacher thing...I looked at some pictures from testing today, and the whole thing was scarily familiar, like he hadn't ever left.

The guy's been away for a year and the bastard sets the fastest lap on the first day of testing.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:01 pm

DVR alert: "The Kentucky Kid," a two-hour documentary about the end of Nicky Hayden's 2006 MotoGP championship season and his 2007 season, will air at 10 p.m. (ET) Friday, Nov. 16 on MTV.

You can see the trailer here: http://www.redbullindianapolisgp.com/

Looks pretty cool. I'm watching!

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:40 pm

PK, you know your Moto GP...how much is there to read into the times they're doing at this test in Sepang? I saw Honda have the 2008 bike for Hayden to run, and I think Suzuki and someone else have had their new bikes running at some point too - with the new season so far off, is this test any kind of a pointer or form guide?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:22 pm

GB_Simo wrote:PK, you know your Moto GP...how much is there to read into the times they're doing at this test in Sepang? I saw Honda have the 2008 bike for Hayden to run, and I think Suzuki and someone else have had their new bikes running at some point too - with the new season so far off, is this test any kind of a pointer or form guide?

Adam:

This sounds like a cliche, but it's really hard to tell how much each team is putting into speed with these early tests. Most guys still are running 2007 bikes this week at Sepang, so it still remains a mystery just how quick the 2008 bikes are.

For example, Randy De Puniet was fastest today at Sepang on a 2007 Honda LCR. Nicky was somewhat slow today in seventh, but he was on a 2007 Honda, too. He also crashed in the morning.

Vermeulen was second on a 2007 Suzuki. He's a very capable rider, and Hopkins proved this year that Suzuki was vastly improved. I'm pretty puzzled why Hopper left for Kawasaki, honestly -- it must be money. Vermeulen was a second quicker than Hopper today.

These Sepang tests won't mean that much because Ducati isn't there, and Rossi and Pedrosa aren't testing. Without Stoner, Rossi and Pedrosa there, the Sepang tests aren't going to tell you much.

Honestly, mate, early offseason MotoGP testing is a lot like November testing in F1. Fun to fill your motor racing fix, but they won't tell you a whole lot.

I'm eager for the first test where everyone is there on their 2008 bikes. Now THAT will be fun!

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:18 am

Adam:

Just when I finished ripping Hopkins for leaving Suzuki for the money at Kawasaki, he goes out and leads testing Friday!

1
John Hopkins
Kawasaki Racing Team
2m 02.200s
63

2
Chris Vermeulen
Rizla Suzuki MotoGP
2m 02.344s
70

3
Randy de Puniet
Honda LCR
2m 02.550s
71

4
Andrea Dovizioso
JiR Scot Honda
2m 02.591s
55

5
Loris Capirossi
Rizla Suzuki MotoGP
2m 02.698s
65

6
Nicky Hayden
Repsol Honda Team
2m 02.800s
65

7
Colin Edwards
Yamaha Tech 3
2m 02.831s
52

8
Anthony West
Kawasaki Racing Team
2m 03.093s
71

9
Jorge Lorenzo
Fiat Yamaha Team
2m 04.021s
47

10
James Toseland
Tech 3 Yamaha
2m 04.278s
60

All of which proves a few things: One, testing is very unpredictable. Two, MotoGP is extremely competitive among manufacturers. Three, I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to MGP!

I do feel a bit bad for Lorenzo, as he has been quite slow in his first 800cc tests. Pedrosa came to MGP two years ago as the reigning 250cc World Champion, like Lorenzo is, and was fast right off the truck.

So Lorenzo must feel the pressure, even if it is a test. Good thing for Lorenzo that Rossi still is hurting from his broken hand and not testing, as I bet The Doctor probably would have put a morale-sapping hurting on the kid this week on the same bike.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:03 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63994

McLaren's appeal rejected

"The FIA's International Court of Appeal has rejected McLaren's case over the fuel temperatures of the BMW and Williams cars in last month's Brazilian Grand Prix.

After a day of deliberation, having heard all sides yesterday in a London location, the ICA said the results of the Interlagos race will remain unchanged, confirming Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen as the 2007 world champion.

The governing body said in a statement the case was rejected because McLaren's appeal is inadmissable."

More details to follow shortly...

Smurfy · Post by **Smurfy** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Since I can't add anything useful to the discussion, I'll just nitpick at what PK said. I disagree with lumping Trulli in the same list of has-beens as DC, Fisi, and Rubens. It's true has was never much to worry about on race day, but he's still got his qualifying magic.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:26 pm

Smurfy wrote:Since I can't add anything useful to the discussion, I'll just nitpick at what PK said. I disagree with lumping Trulli in the same list of has-beens as DC, Fisi, and Rubens. It's true has was never much to worry about on race day, but he's still got his qualifying magic.

And how many points does that pay?

Trulli is a has-been, maybe a never-was except for one magic weekend at Monaco. The only redeeming factor is that he might be the nicest guy among F1 drivers.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:13 pm

Ah, another nitpicker? It was awfully lonely before you turned up, Smurf.

pk500 wrote:
Smurfy wrote:Since I can't add anything useful to the discussion, I'll just nitpick at what PK said. I disagree with lumping Trulli in the same list of has-beens as DC, Fisi, and Rubens. It's true has was never much to worry about on race day, but he's still got his qualifying magic.
And how many points does that pay?

With these aero regs?

Refresh my memory - when was the last time a team mate absolutely blitzed Trulli over a season? Ralfie certainly didn't. Alonso...well, he was superior in 2003, certainly, but slower than Jarno in 2004 (incidentally, in their time together at Renault, Jarno and Fernando won exactly the same number of races - one). Jenson didn't manage it, neither did Frentzen or Alesi in the twilight of his career, though Alesi in his prime might have done. Anything prior to that, I guess, doesn't bear comparison - Panis was injured, Nakano useless and Katayama happier climbing mountains - but his record is hardly shabby against those in the same machinery, and those in the same machinery were hardly shabby either.

Edit: Not that I want to present Trulli as absolute top-line, because a blind man could see that he isn't, but I don't feel he's anywhere near as bad as you do, PK. Start ripping Fisi to bits, though, and I'm right with you.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:39 pm

The only driver on that list that flatters Trulli is Alonso. And Alonso outscored him each of their years as teammates, even despite Alonso having a lower laps completed percentage in 2004 than Trulli. That said, Trulli only scored one fewer point than Alonso during their 15 races together in 2004 at Renault, so 2004 was Jarno's high-water mark, for sure.

Button was a shattered shell at Benetton-Renault and hadn't found his F1 sea legs when he was teammates with Trulli. He still was reeling from being dumped by Williams and was enjoying the Monaco high life of F1 too much during his Benetton-Renault tenure.

Trulli is a superb qualifier, but even that stat is overrated. The guy has three career poles; his teammates have recorded four when paired with Trulli.

I simply fail to understand the importance that the F1 world places on qualifying comparisons between teammates. It's almost as if a driver who outqualified his teammate, 15-2, yet was outscored 30-15 during the season is regarded as an equal. That's preposterous.

Racing is just as much about racecraft as it is pure speed. And Trulli's racecraft isn't that special.

While Trulli supporters can point to his sublime weekend at Monaco in 2004, detractors like me can point to Magny-Cours in the same season when he basically let Barrichello through without any fight for third with two turns to go in the race. Briatore knew right then and there that Trulli was a sh*t racer and eventually let him go before the end of the season.

Fine qualifier, a softie as a racer. A hot lapper. He probably would be a good test driver because he can extract maximum speed from a car for a reference point.

Sad to say it, because I have been told by a handful of F1 journalists that Trulli is one of the nicest guys in the paddock. Plus in reading interviews with him, he seems to be one of the few drivers who even acknowledges that there's a world outside of F1 and its paddock. An interesting, thoughtful dude.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:07 pm

[Snip!]

I've already allowed that he's not a good racing driver, and indeed that last post was going to contain the Barrichello incident you mentioned. I also seem to recall Malaysia a couple of years ago and an awful lot of cars just driving past into turn one as if Jarno wasn't there - Martin Brundle said in commentary that it was as if Jarno had a big green arrow pointing to the inside of turn one as an invitation to go past. I don't necessarily think being a poor wheel to wheel racer should disqualify a man from a Formula One drive, nor would I lose Trulli from the present grid just yet, but I don't deny his combat skills aren't all that.

Saying that, if you feel there's a viable alternative whose season points total should be higher than Jarno's...sure, kick him out, nice fella or not. I see better wheel to wheel racing drivers, lots of them, but I don't know they'd finish any higher than Trulli does.

Edit: Slick editing, PK, beat me to the punch. I'm going to have to check my maths on the scoring - I've got Trulli one point ahead before he left Renault...
Edit the second: Yeah, still getting that. Either way, they were close-ish. I'm looking forward to seeing how Glock goes next year, and if Jarno is capable of raising his game should it be necessary (as Glock's career to date suggests it will be).

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:20 pm

Well, I would put Rosberg into a Toyota in a heartbeat ahead of Trulli. Same with Kubica. Same with Vettel.

But I wouldn't wish any driver the torture of driving for Toyota, which never will be successful in F1 regardless of how much money it throws at it due to the Japan-Germany management duopoly the team uses.

It's simply untenable in modern F1 -- which moves at such a fast pace -- for every move of the factory in Cologne to require approval from the suits in Tokyo. That sluggish response is exacerbated by the Japanese way of doing business, in which consensus is sought instead of one big cheese calling the shots.

Honda works in much of the same way, although I've read and heard that its bureaucracy isn't as bad as Toyota's. Still, I wonder how Brawn will function within a team that's not given complete autonomy from the manufacturer's corporate headquarters. He's used to making decisions and executing them quickly.

I understand that one of Nick Fry's new roles is to run interference for Brawn between the factory in Brackley and the suits in Tokyo, which should help Brawn.

Speaking of Brawn and Honda, how tempting must it be for Schumacher to exit retirement for one last great challenge with his great friend at Honda? Somewhat similar circumstances to Ferrari in 1996. An underachieving team with a winning racing heritage that needs discipline and structure.

But it took Schumacher four seasons to deliver Ferrari's first constructors' title in eons, and it took him five seasons with the Scuderia to win the drivers' title. The reclamation job at Honda probably would take similar amounts of time, and the clock is Schumacher's enemy at this point. But if anyone has the mental and physical fitness to do it, it's Schumi.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:56 pm

Ah. I'd put Rosberg, Kubica or Vettel in there if they were available and interested, but Toyota would never get hold of those drivers as long as those men were serious about succeeding. I think that's my point - sod a dream line-up, who could you get who was better than Trulli and dumb enough to drive for Toyota?

Well, Glock, obviously. Ah, doesn't matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't the Honda suits in Japan force through the employment of a technical director with absolutely no Formula One experience to oversee the development of their car about a year ago? As bothersome as their management structure is, it's surely worse when the top brass start giving people jobs on the basis that they like them or whatever rather than their skills. I would guess Schumi wouldn't touch it with a 20 ft pole at this point in his life, but what a wonderful thought it is.

Last thing before I bugger off - anyone see the WTCC finale?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:43 pm

GB_Simo wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't the Honda suits in Japan force through the employment of a technical director with absolutely no Formula One experience to oversee the development of their car about a year ago? As bothersome as their management structure is, it's surely worse when the top brass start giving people jobs on the basis that they like them or whatever rather than their skills. I would guess Schumi wouldn't touch it with a 20 ft pole at this point in his life, but what a wonderful thought it is.

Yes and no. Honda fired the qualified and capable Geoff Willis for Shuei Nakamoto, who came to Honda's F1 program in 2000 after working on the bike team since the 1980s.

Nakamoto's first car, this year's RA107, was an absolute dog compared to Willis' RA106, in which Button won last year at Hungary. Super Aguri used a reworked Willis-designed RA106 this season to often beat the works Honda RA107 that Nakamoto designed. Remember, too, that Willis was the mastermind behind Honda finishing second in the Constructors' Championship in 2004, an almost inconceivable result today.

GB_Simo wrote:Last thing before I bugger off - anyone see the WTCC finale?

Nope. Worth a download, I presume? In Macau, right? We should run ETCC's there in rFactor!

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:15 pm

I just started to watch the first of the two races. I thought man it's looking like a wet race until I realized that's not rain that's pollution lol. Damn, China's smog makes LA look like sunny Miami Florida.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:33 pm

Nakamoto! That's the fella. Didn't realise he'd been in the F1 setup for quite so long - for some reason I find Honda really, really easy to ignore. The firing of Willis always struck me as a little bit odd, though again I've not delved too far into the thinking behind it. I assume Red Bull won't be quite so keen to release him.

PK, do you know the outcome of the races in Macau? I found them to be two enjoyable races, though all of the tension and real drama was contained within race one.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:40 pm

Simo:

I know Andy won the title for third consecutive year, which is MEGA. Dude truly is the Michael Schumacher of touring cars.

That leads me to this question: Who is the most underrated, underappreciated world champion, Sebastien Loeb or Andy Priaulx? You could easily make a case for both.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:31 pm

Never seen a WTCC race until today, a very cool series indeed. To bad Nascar doesn't do more road courses. I find it ironic that Nascar has always build itself as the series based on production vehicles. I've seen a Cup car before and they look nothing like a production car i.e. no headlights, wipers, false doors etc.

A WTCC car has working doors, wipers, headlights etc. I just think I may have found another racing series to watch next year brsides F1, MotoGP, and the WRC.

It's also nice to see Chevy do so well in the series. The first race had a very chaotic start. I'm amazed the Seat was not penalized for jumping the Chevy (Pole Sitter) at the start. Oh well he crashed out after taking out the BMW. I guess justiced was served.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:16 pm

The WTCC rocks. So does the BTCC. Speed shows the BTCC season on Wednesday afternoons during December and early January. Great racing.

I love touring cars.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:49 pm

I take it BTCC stands for British Touring Car Championship? What's the main difference between the two series? I may have to check out the BTCC as well. Touring cars look really cool especially the BMW's and Seat's.

Look's like i'm going to have to breakout Race '07 again and try my luck at Macau.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:03 am

Rodster wrote:I take it BTCC stands for British Touring Car Championship? What's the main difference between the two series?

Tracks and drivers, mainly, now that BTCC runs off the same Super 2000 regulations that the WTCC cars do - previously they ran their own BTC Touring rules, and independent entrants are still permitted to, but the works cars run to the same regs as WTCC. You'll also see Vauxhall and Honda represented in the British series, so a couple of different car shapes and chassis to look at.

BTCC has traditionally been home to some of the best touring car drivers in the world - WTCC front-runners Alain Menu, James Thompson and Yvan Muller have all been champions in BTCC, and Rob Huff and Andy Priaulx are among the men who cut their touring teeth there - and still boasts class acts like Matt Neal and Fabrizio Giovanardi. Give it a look if you get a chance, Rod.