OT: Racing 2007 (Spoiler Alert)

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:09 pm

Rodster wrote:One of the other comments on the Youtube video was that when he hit the catch fence his head was ripped right off his body and supposedly every bone in his body was broken. There was also another comment, that there was brain matter on the race track. Pretty grim stuff.

Accurate, sadly.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:28 pm

I don't think there is video of it, at least not the actual crash itself, but reading the descriptions and seeing the pictures of Francois Ceverts crash at Watkins Glen was very disturbing.

Also, I remember seeing one of a driver at the Canadian Grand Prix who's car caught fire just as they were trying to get him out of it. Thankfully from what I remember of it he was unconscious at the time.

I remember when the Smiley accident happened they showed the crash on TV. Luckily camera resolutions were not very good so you didn't really see much.

Racing is a very very dangerous game.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:01 pm

Gurantsu wrote:I don't think there is video of it, at least not the actual crash itself, but reading the descriptions and seeing the pictures of Francois Ceverts crash at Watkins Glen was very disturbing.

Also, I remember seeing one of a driver at the Canadian Grand Prix who's car caught fire just as they were trying to get him out of it. Thankfully from what I remember of it he was unconscious at the time.

The Cevert one seems very disturbing, I agree. The only footage I've ever seen isn't of the crash, but of Colin Chapman's reaction in the pits - it's on YouTube, interspersed with interviews with Stewart and Fittipaldi, so you've probably seen it. Helmuth Koinigg was decapitated at the same circuit the year after when his Surtees displaced the lower tiers of Armco barrier and was able to drive under the remaining tiers, and that too isn't something I care to dwell on. There are stills of it, again on YouTube, and again not comfortable viewing.

The Canadian one was Riccardo Paletti in 1982 - he rammed the back of Pironi's stalled Ferrari at the start, and the Osella went up soon after. Paletti was unconscious, wasn't at all burned in the fire and had injuries that weren't survivable so he'd have known nothing of it, but the horror of it isn't in any way diminished for knowing that.

It's as you said, racing is a very dangerous game. At least, though, it's not as careless about safety as it was when the marshals of the 1973 Dutch Grand Prix, unprotected against fire and with inadequate fighting equipment, left Roger Williamson to die in his upturned, burning March.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:18 pm

Fellas the one good thing that's come out of all these tragedies is car safety in most motorsports. I was shocked and saddened when my favorite driver Earnhardt Sr. was killed at Daytona.

Because of these drivers most racing series now require all participants to wear the Hans device. Look how many lives it probably has saved. Let's also look at some of the recent accidents where we shook our heads and wondered oh crap. Crashes like Mario Andretti going airbourne at Indy, Dario 2 crashes last year. How about Kimi, Lewis and the horrific crash of Robert Kubica who I swore was dead from that crash. All those drivers lived to race another day.

So hats off to NASCAR, The IRL, Formula One, Champ Car and the rest of the major racing series for thinking of the driver FIRST and the entertainment second.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:37 pm

A friend sent this link to me in an e-mail. I figure I'll pass it on, it's time to use YouTube for less gruesome viewing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qT_q8PX ... Fwww%2Eaut

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:09 pm

Great video man.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:43 pm

Really enjoyed that video - I'd heard of it before but hadn't seen it. It reminded me of this, even though the concept isn't the same and much of this belongs in a racing thread only through tenuous association:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB_1gPRCLCo

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:17 pm

It's official Mclaren and Alonzo have parted ways and he's free to sign with any team. This should be rather interesting. I know this sounds crazy but don't be shocked if he's driving a red car next year. Montezemolo loves this guy.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63742

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:04 pm

I'm more interested in the domino effect that Alonso's next move will precipitate.

Rumors already cooking:

-- Alonso to Renault in a straight swap for Kovalainen. No way will Alonso pair with Kovy at Renault. He's young and fast, and Alonso doesn't like that type of a driver as a teammate.

-- Rosberg to McLaren to succeed Alonso. But there are rumors that Keke Rosberg doesn't want his son's budding career derailed so early by having to face Hamilton.

And what about these scenarios?

-- Any chance McLaren will try to get Heidfeld to return to its fold? A solid, steady veteran who won't match Hamilton but will win and pile up Constructors' points. That will allow BMW to get its preferred lineup of Kubica and Vettel in place. Or it would open a spot for Alonso in the third-best team in F1 right now, one that he could lead to the top.

-- What about Red Bull as a stopgap until a seat opens at Ferrari or Renault improves? The team has a huge budget, Adrian Newey as chief designer and an improving car. Alonso could go there for a year or two, with Webber going to McLaren, or Webber to Renault as a replacement for Kovalainen if he goes to McLaren. Remember, Renault engines power Red Bull. And Renault boss Flavio Briatore manages Webber. Plus Red Bull's satellite team, Scuderia Toro Rosso, is powered by Ferrari engines. So there are ties between the Red Bull umbrella and Renault and Ferrari.

This expected divorce between McLaren and Alonso has just made the F1 offseason intriguing as hell.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:37 pm

pk500 wrote:
And what about these scenarios?

-- What about Red Bull as a stopgap until a seat opens at Ferrari or Renault improves?
This expected divorce between McLaren and Alonso has just made the F1 offseason intriguing as hell.

Take care,
PK

PK that's the slant the BBC gave in their article today that Ferrari might buy out Massa's contract and drop Alonzo in his seat. I know it sounds crazy to team Raikkonen and Alonzo in the same seat but crazier things have happened before. I personally would frown on a team like that because their is no way in hell Ferrari is going to piss away $40 million a year on the current world champion and pay Alonzo the same maybe more.

Plus this is open for debate but I think between the two Kimi is faster than Alonzo although Alonzo knows how to get the most out of his cars. It will also be interesting to see how Lewis copes without having Alonzo's help in setups and such. Will Lewis struggle without having Alonzo around and using his setups. Around Spa Alonzo was not as willing to play nice and help out his teammate with setups and info as he did in the beginning of the year. It showed as Alonzo had better results I think in the last six races.

Another wild card is Mario Theissen. Does he like you said drop Heifeld for Alonzo? The driver to take them over the hump. The question regarding this move is Kubica is solid and quick. How would Alonzo deal with him.

Like you said with 4 months before the new season starts it will be fun to see how all the musical chairs play out.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:01 pm

Rod, when we talk of the impact on Hamilton of not having Alonso's setup, we should remember that in the last three races of the season Hamilton was the faster of the two men by a reasonable distance.

I don't see the Alonso-Ferrari link, not yet. It doesn't make any kind of sense to sign Massa on a multi-year deal and then immediately pay him off, and it makes even less sense for Ron to let Fernando leave Woking and go straight to Maranello. I'm sure Philip Morris pay the drivers at Ferrari, so I can't see the wage packet being of any great concern to Jean and Luca, but...no, I can't see it, not in 2008 at any rate.

I'd thought about Heidfeld back at McLaren too, but given how closely he's been linked to BMW since 2005, how keen would Dr Theissen be to let that one happen? I'm not sure Webber is right for McLaren either, but as PK says, he could be on the move if the musical chairs kicks off - I've read stories of Red Bull pensioning off DC, but I'm not sure I see the value in that just yet, and shuffling Webber out through a willing Briatore must be easier than having to wrestle with Martin Brundle to turf out Coolhard.

The only other options are Toyota and Williams - I'm not sure Frank would be willing to pay the necessary, and I'm sure Fernando isn't dim enough to sign for Toyota unless he knows something they've hid from us for the last six seasons.

Edit: There's Honda too, I guess. Rumour has it that they're showing Rubinho the exit door despite his having a contract, but he spent much of this season matching Button so I'm not sure I'd agree with their doing that. Equally, they could offer me that drive and I'd have to think about it, so you've got to imagine Alonso would take a year off if Honda were his last chance of an '08 drive.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Simo, I don't see Alonso going to Ferrari either, now that Kimi has won the title. That was just a teaser in the BBC article today on their website.

What I was referring to regarding Lewis is that he and Alonzo shared setups and had help at the start of the season. As the season wore on Alonso's input was not as voluntary as at the start of the season. I hope Lewis took notes because it's now on him to make sure his car feels right rather than picking Alonso's brain for nuggets to use during the season. I think Lewis is a sharp guy who will do just fine next year. Whether he has the same success or results as this year remains to be seen.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:28 pm

Rodster wrote:I hope Lewis took notes because it's now on him to make sure his car feels right rather than picking Alonso's brain for nuggets to use during the season. I think Lewis is a sharp guy who will do just fine next year. Whether he has the same success or results as this year remains to be seen.

McLaren have to give him the car, of course, and Mark Webber pointed out a few weeks back that you don't get a quick McLaren every year these days. I didn't see Lewis go the wrong way on setup any more often than I saw Fernando do it this season, and given that he's won everything in the lower formulae you've got to assume he knows what he wants from a racing car. As you said, he's a sharp guy.

Given how McLaren have major Spanish sponsors and a Spaniard already in their ranks, the fact that none of us think him a serious contender for a race seat suggests that we must all think very little of Pedro de la Rosa. For what it's worth, I think they could do worse than him - he's solid enough, he'll be around at the end and a solid points scorer - and it must be easier to give him a drive than to bag one of the drivers already under contract, but much as I like PDLR, he'd win them very little.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:02 pm

That was pretty funny reading Mark Webbers comments. No doubt Lewis will get to drive a McLaren crap box the odds are against him and every super team including Ferrari. My point was Lewis' job was made easier in having a double world champion as his team mate during the start of the season. The learning curve wasn't as great as if he went to McLaren alongside just another good driver.

Now it's on him to get the car to his liking and not a car that Fernando told the team, "this is what I need the car to do in order to win". Fernando upped McLaren's game just by his skill and experience. It's no different when Michael went to Ferrari in 96. He started to win races after a long drought by the red team.

So we'll see how Lewis performs next year without the aid of a double world champion. But Lewis is a sharp tack and he'll figure it out. I just hope he doesn't get bit by the sophomore jinx.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:53 pm

Ah, the Michael thing. I try, I really do, but I can't bring myself to compare Fernando and McLaren with Michael and Ferrari. I'll even tell you why, here:

Ferrari won one race in 1994 and one in 1995. They won three in 1996. Their '96 car looked worse than their '95 one, and so you've got to put the extra wins down to the driver, but their big stride forward came in 1997, which was the first season in which their car and strategy were handled by the same men who'd marshalled Michael's two championship seasons at Benetton.

Of course Michael was able to say this and that were wrong with the car, and presumably do so with more accuracy and authority than either Alesi or Berger before him were able to manage (they wanted different things from their cars too - in his first Benetton test, Berger drove the title-winning B195 as tailored to Schumacher and couldn't live with it at all), but try as I might, I can't make the comparison between Ferrari really coming good in Michael's second season after 5 relatively barren years and McLaren hitting stride this year after one dodgy season. If we follow that route, we probably end up crediting Juan Pablo Montoya with their strong 2005 - just as with Alonso, he was the only major off-season arrival after a struggle the year before.

None of that, of course, has to do with your main point, and yes, we'll see how Hamilton goes next season but I agree that he ought to be fine. It just...I dunno, the suggestion that Fernando gave to McLaren what Michael and his old pals gave Ferrari just really doesn't work for me. What he did give them, absolutely, was a phenomenally fast driver, and whoever signs him up for next year is guaranteed of that much as long as they can put up with his apparent dissatisfaction with everything around him.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:40 am

Adam is right: John Barnard's 1996 Ferrari was an absolute PIG, and Schumacher won three races in it.

Comparisons between Schumacher and Alonso as leaders of men and developers of race cars are utterly daft. Schumacher was arguably the greatest, most powerful and motivating team leader in F1 history. Every man on Ferrari, from Montezemolo (at least until last season) to the floor sweeper at Maranello, would have practically taken a bullet for the guy.

And Schumacher worked like no one ever seen in F1. Endless test laps. He received and studied real-time telemetry streams at his home in Switzerland when Ferrari tested in December while he still was on holiday. It was common for Schumacher to be up late at night studying telemetry data and calling Ross Brawn in Maranello at ungodly hours to discuss setups and data. Schumacher also worked harder than anyone in the gym.

Plus Schumacher NEVER, EVER had a bad word to say about his team, crew or car, even at his lowest times at Ferrari. Contrast that with Alonso's behavior this year, and frankly, Fernando Alonso can't carry Michael Schumacher's helmet bag as a team leader or developer of race cars.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:07 am

Ok point well taken so maybe I had Alonso pegged wrong. But i've been saying all along that a championship driver can make a difference and take the team to the next level as Schumacher did with Ferrari.

Now if I go ahead and agree with the two of you cats and say Alonso had nothing or very little to do with McLaren's good fortunes this year, then Lewis needs to have the same year as last. I'm not saying he needs to win the Championship but he needs to have an equal if not better year in 2008.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:12 am

Rodster wrote:Now if I go ahead and agree with the two of you cats and say Alonso had nothing or very little to do with McLaren's good fortunes this year, then Lewis needs to have the same year as last. I'm not saying he needs to win the Championship but he needs to have an equal if not better year in 2008.

There's enough precedent with other drivers - Hakkinen, Alonso, Schumacher, even Piquet - to suggest that it won't be any problem. It's easy, too easy perhaps, to say that the experienced second driver is vitally important, but if you're sat in a top-line car with any kind of racing experience it's not the case, or at least not to such a degree that you'd get lost without them. As I said, whatever Lewis was doing at the end of the season, in the last three races it was faster than the double world champion's solution...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:13 am

Rodster wrote:Ok point well taken so maybe I had Alonso pegged wrong. But i've been saying all along that a championship driver can make a difference and take the team to the next level as Schumacher did with Ferrari.

Now if I go ahead and agree with the two of you cats and say Alonso had nothing or very little to do with McLaren's good fortunes this year, then Lewis needs to have the same year as last. I'm not saying he needs to win the Championship but he needs to have an equal if not better year in 2008.

Rod:

It's true that a driver can make a huge difference. But it terms of complete integration with the team and raising it to unprecedented heights, I can only think of one other driver-team relationship that is on the same level as Schumacher and Ferrari (Ross Brawn): Jim Clark and Lotus (Colin Chapman).

Maybe you could make a case for Jackie Stewart and Tyrrell, too.

I think it's a stretch to assume Adam and I thought Alonso made little difference in the team's direction. He did, in the early development of the car this season. But the guy had no influence on the initial design of the car, which was very good, because he hadn't arrived from Renault until January of this season.

Plus any positives that Alonso contributed to early-season development arguably are offset by the destructive nature of his incredibly selfish behavior late in the season. A true team leader simply does not act like that. Schumacher never did; I can imagine Clark never did, either.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:14 pm

pk500 wrote:
Rodster wrote:Ok point well taken so maybe I had Alonso pegged wrong. But i've been saying all along that a championship driver can make a difference and take the team to the next level as Schumacher did with Ferrari.

Now if I go ahead and agree with the two of you cats and say Alonso had nothing or very little to do with McLaren's good fortunes this year, then Lewis needs to have the same year as last. I'm not saying he needs to win the Championship but he needs to have an equal if not better year in 2008.
Rod:

It's true that a driver can make a huge difference. But it terms of complete integration with the team and raising it to unprecedented heights, I can only think of one other driver-team relationship that is on the same level as Schumacher and Ferrari (Ross Brawn): Jim Clark and Lotus (Colin Chapman).

Maybe you could make a case for Jackie Stewart and Tyrrell, too.

I think it's a stretch to assume Adam and I thought Alonso made little difference in the team's direction. He did, in the early development of the car this season. But the guy had no influence on the initial design of the car, which was very good, because he hadn't arrived from Renault until January of this season.

Plus any positives that Alonso contributed to early-season development arguably are offset by the destructive nature of his incredibly selfish behavior late in the season. A true team leader simply does not act like that. Schumacher never did; I can imagine Clark never did, either.

Take care,
PK

Ok so I guess we are all in agreement because what you just said is what I was trying to say although I may have expressed my incorrectly. As Adam rightly noted the McLaren was a good car sans reliability and tweaking. Ok so McLaren figures out the gremlins part and and along comes Fernando who says. Nice car but this doesn't feel right, change you change this? McLaren says let's give it a try. Fernando says yup we're getting somewhere how about we change this so I can go a little faster. McLaren says let's see what we can do, ok Fernando try it now. Fernando says sweet now we're geting somewhere. And the analogy continues until the McLaren is one bad ass Championship contending car.

But what I was trying to say was that when Alonso first came to the team this is what he probably brought to the table when he left Renault and started testing for McLaren. And yes I also agree that Fernando pissed away all the progress the team made with his selfish and immature antics.

I remember Martin Brundle saying before the Spa race that he couldn't understand why a driver especially a two times world champion would want to get so deeply involved in the politics of the team. It backfired on him even though McLaren had to pay a huge price because he didn't get his way.

This is why I like Kimi so much as a driver because he just doesn't give a sh*t about any of that and just wants to drive the damn car.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:20 pm

Another point is that Clark drove a couple of absolute trucks with Lotus too (not just in F1 either - his only F1 dog was the 1966 car with the BRM H-16 engine in the back, but he drove some hideous F2 cars). Stewart, who I absolutely would include as an example of a brilliant driver-team relationship, put up with some gutless Matra engines and then with the March 701, the car that moved Chris Amon to state that, "The bloody car's useless - it's just a heap of sh*t." Both men, and Schumacher whenever saddled with a poor Ferrari package, kept any grumbles they had firmly in-house.

Fernando drove the car that, FIA notwithstanding, scored more constructors points than any other in 2007 and would have won him a world title if he hadn't binned it in the deluge at Mount Fuji. That he still found the time and had the nerve to complain so vociferously says a fair amount for him as a team player and as a man.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:48 am

Some interesting no driver F1 news. Ross Brawn to Honda, good coup by them. I waiting to see if Honda let's him do his thing or if they will tell him how to do his job. If they don't interfere with Ross, Honda has a chance to make some serious gains by mid to late next year. I know Jensen must be ecstatic.

I'm not surprised Brawn did not sign with Ferrari as he has a better challenge at Honda and I agree with him there. Is Jean Todt still the team principal at Ferrari? I read there was a shake up but I got no indications that he stepped down from his role. Maybe someone can clarify this for me.

If Todt is still running the show at Ferrari then that probably explains why Ross signed with Honda. I hope Jensen gets a much better car this year. The good news for him and Rubens is that Ross likes his drivers lineup.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:45 pm

Rodster wrote:Some interesting no driver F1 news. Ross Brawn to Honda, good coup by them. I waiting to see if Honda let's him do his thing or if they will tell him how to do his job. If they don't interfere with Ross, Honda has a chance to make some serious gains by mid to late next year. I know Jensen must be ecstatic.

Well, we'll see how two-faced Our Jense really is now. Last weekend, before Brawn's hiring was announced, Button said he would leave Honda after next season if the car was a dog again.

Brawn won't have that much effect on the 2008 car, which already has been designed and is in production. Sure, he will have a very firm imprint on development. But if the chassis is crap from the outset, no development will turn it into a contender.

So if Button is in a mediocre car next season, which is more than likely, will he betray his word and stay with Honda for 2009 to see what kind of effect Brawn will have?

There's also no question that Brawn's arrival should act like a magnet and attract more talented people to Honda. But how will Brawn function in Honda's very odd F1 corporate structure, in which decisions made at the factory in the UK must be approved by the cautious, consensus-bound Honda management in Japan? Brawn is accustomed either to working with an independent team like Benetton or a factory team that has almost complete autonomy in its racing operations, Ferrari.

Rodster wrote:I'm not surprised Brawn did not sign with Ferrari as he has a better challenge at Honda and I agree with him there.

I'm not sure if the decision was entirely Brawn's. Ross is a close friend and strong supporter of shamed Ferrari chief mechanic Nigel Stepney, the architect of Spygate. So there is a chance -- and it's only a chance -- that Montezemolo didn't want Brawn back due to his association with Stepney. Plus Ferrari proved this year that it can succeed without Brawn.

Rodster wrote:Is Jean Todt still the team principal at Ferrari? I read there was a shake up but I got no indications that he stepped down from his role. Maybe someone can clarify this for me.

No, Todt no longer is team principal. Stefano Domenicali was named to that post Monday. Todt now oversees all of Ferrari, road car operations and racing operations. He still will attend some races, but Domenicali is the Gestione Sportiva -- the racing team boss -- now.

Rodster wrote:If Todt is still running the show at Ferrari then that probably explains why Ross signed with Honda. I hope Jensen gets a much better car this year. The good news for him and Rubens is that Ross likes his drivers lineup.

Barrichello should be binned now. He is a member of a large group of cash-and-carry, past-the-sell-date F1 drivers that includes Coulthard, Trulli, Ralf Schumacher and Fisichella. All five of those guys shouldn't be in F1. They're simply too slow.

Compare that lot with the young talent that has arrived in F1 the last two seasons. Who would you rather see race: DC, Trulli, Ralf, Fisi and Rubens or Kubica, Vettel, Rosberg, Sutil and Hamilton?

If you don't say the latter group, then you're living in the past.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:45 pm

I'm in the past then, PK. Yes, I love watching each of the rookies you've picked out, but I'm having to do some fishing to think of anyone else I want to graduate to Formula One. Ralf and Fisi can make their exits, but I'm perfectly happy to see Rubens and DC, and Trulli as long as he gives up his car after qualifying every weekend, over Roldan Rodriguez or Guido van der Garde or whoever else you can name on the fringes of F1 right now.

Edit: I should add, though, that in a couple of years Sebastien Buemi and Nico Hulkenberg might be F1 material, and I'm really looking forward to seeing whether those two get to have a crack at top line machinery.

As for Jenson, we saw how two-faced he really is long ago - leaving Honda if next year's car is a pig would be bucking the trend and no more.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:59 pm

Interesting, Adam. I can't agree with you on DC, Rubens or Trulli. They bring absolutely nothing to F1 in 2008 other than their names and a reputation forged upon varying amounts of past glory.

I'd much rather see a young kid bin a car or make mistakes while trying to squeeze everything out of it than DC, Trulli or Rubens cruising home to a safe 14th place every other Sunday.

DC, Trulli and Rubens are the Sterling Marlin, Joe Nemechek and Ward Burton of F1. If you follow NASCAR at all, you'll know that's not a very flattering comparison.

Take care,
PK