OT: Racing 2007 (Spoiler Alert)

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:00 pm

Well...if the car was running fuel that was, for whatever reason, illegal, then you throw them out. It's been done before, it'll be done again, and that would then make Lewis the 4th legal car across the line, and in that sense deserving of the title. Really, running what could be 71 laps with something wonky in the fuel system can be altogether different in terms of end result to running one lap on an extra set of wets.

However, I'm hoping - and given the lack of any further detailed reporting I suspect this might be the case - that whatever infringement they've found (apparently it relates to the temperature of the fuel samples taken from Rosberg [and what a race he drove today], Kubica and Heidfeld) isn't serious enough to merit penalty. Kimi won the title on the track, and with luck this is nothing and final standings will reflect that.

Edit: Oh.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63557

If those figures are right, and it's bloody hard to imagine Jo Bauer making them up, that might change things a smidge.

Edit the second: But doesn't change anything, thank Heavens. Results are now official.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:00 pm

Update

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/21102007/ ... irmed.html

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63567

Raikkonen title confirmed

Eurosport - Mon, 22 Oct 00:28:00 2007

Kimi Raikkonen's world championship title for Ferrari has been confirmed as there will be no penalty for BMW Sauber and Williams for fuel irregularities.

That means McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton, who finished in seventh, cannot overtake the Finn on points.

Had Williams' Nico Rosberg, fourth in the race, and BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld behind him been disqualified for fuel temperature irregularities, the British rookie, only 22, would have been awarded the drivers' championship.

All three cars had cooler fuel temperatures than officially permitted, meaning that they had an unfair advantage in terms of how much they could take on and how quickly it could be transferred.

After a meeting between race stewards and representatives from the offending teams however it was decided that no sanctions would be taken against the drivers' places in the finishing order.

Hamilton suffered a poor start to the race then had gearbox problems on lap eight that left him adrift. He fought back valiantly but could not make it as far as sixth, which would have given him the title.

Raikkonen beat Hamilton and his Spanish team-mate Fernando Alonso by a solitary point overall after winning the race at Interlagos. Alonso ended it in third position.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:49 pm

The right guy won the World Championship, thank God.

Hamilton didn't deserve the title because he showed ZERO racecraft the last two races, when the pressure was really on. As Hobbs and Matchett said today on Speed, he didn't need to be racing these guys so hard at China and here at Brazil.

And I don't want to hear this mamby-pamby about "Oh, he's a racer," and "Give the boy credit for not backing into the title." F*ck that -- your job as the championship leader is to win the title, not score style points.

Hamilton had no business trying to go around Alonso on Lap 1. He didn't NEED to do that. It was brazen stupidity bred by his impossible overtaking maneuvers in GP 2 and other feeder series throughout the year.

Well, Lewis got schooled the last two races and hopefully learned that F1 isn't a training ground.

Raikkonen was the one guy who simply shut the f*ck up all season and wrung everything out of the car it offered. He's a worthy and deserving World Champion.

Vodka production from Russia and Finland will climb approximately 10 percent in the next two weeks, too, to cope with Kimi's upcoming consumption.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:15 am

pk500 wrote:Raikkonen was the one guy who simply shut the f*ck up all season and wrung everything out of the car it offered. He's a worthy and deserving World Champion.

Except that he didn't, did he? He was on holiday between Melbourne and Magny Cours. Worthy world champion, yes, but wrung everything out of it all season?

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:56 am

GB_Simo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Raikkonen was the one guy who simply shut the f*ck up all season and wrung everything out of the car it offered. He's a worthy and deserving World Champion.
Except that he didn't, did he? He was on holiday between Melbourne and Magny Cours. Worthy world champion, yes, but wrung everything out of it all season?

That's why I think Felipe had the more consistent season between the two. If it weren't for reliability issues he could've been in Raikonnen's position. I think Felipe had a solid season whereas as you rightly mentioned Kimi went on vacation after Melbourne. Which pissed off the Ferrari brass even speculation that he might lose his seat. But with that said, when the guy is in the zone there is no other driver on the grid that can match his pace.

*It looks like McLaren has filed an appeal for the fuel infraction* It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Fernando already is chiming in with his usual self, like "it would be an embarrassment if Lewis was given the title". Nothing like trying to get on the good side of your team.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:58 am

Sorry double post.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:25 am

GB_Simo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Raikkonen was the one guy who simply shut the f*ck up all season and wrung everything out of the car it offered. He's a worthy and deserving World Champion.
Except that he didn't, did he? He was on holiday between Melbourne and Magny Cours. Worthy world champion, yes, but wrung everything out of it all season?

True, true.

Lewis was competitive at every race, but his lack of racecraft these last two races was pretty stunning. He threw away the world title with the pit entry miscue at Shanghai and the blundered, stupid attempt to pass Alonso at Interlagos.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:59 am

Perhaps I'm wrong, and if I need teaching here then by all means educate away, but it seemed to me that being stuck in neutral for half a lap cost Hamilton the title. His move was dumb but he was running in 6th, one place and about a second from being in title winning order, when the car stopped. What his move was, undoubtedly, was heart ruling head when it mattered, and it wasn't at all smart but to say it cost him the title is one hell of a stretch.

That's if we stick solely to Interlagos and don't argue that the title was thrown away the race before, which I have no argument with at all. What really confused me about China was that yes, he didn't have to win the race, and yes, he gave the tyres some stick, but it seemed that his team were trying to win the race too instead of taking the points that would have put Raikkonen out of contention. I'm still completely lost as to why they'd all be thinking that way.

Rod, regardless of how Fernando arrives at the conclusion that giving Hamilton the title now would be an embarrassment, he's right, isn't he?

Edit: Not that I'm saying McLaren shouldn't appeal - I don't see that they've got any choice, just that the outcome, even if they're successful, shouldn't result in a change in world champion. Ask PK how long it took for people to stop talking about Indy in 1981...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:15 pm

Adam:

Has it been determined without a doubt that Hamilton's off didn't cause the gearbox problem? He jumped a curb and had a bumpy ride during his adventure, and most of the electronics and the gearbox in an F1 car are located low on the chassis, for center-of-gravity reasons.

The gearbox was more of a problem than the off, but I tend to think the off could have spurred the gearbox problem.

Either way, it was piss-poor racecraft at the most crucial time. The off put Hamilton on the back foot from the very beginning, and his lockups and over-aggressive corner lines for the ensuing laps right after his off set the tone for a very frustrating day.

Contrast that with Raikkonen's drive, which was composed and inch-perfect from lights out to checkered flag.

You're right: Raikkonen sucked from post-Melbourne until Magny-Cours, but he was superb when it mattered in the final third of the season.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:42 pm

Nope, PK, it hasn't been determined without doubt that his off didn't cause it, but without determining beyond doubt that it did perhaps our best course of action is to both shush on the subject until we know one way or the other...your reasoning is sound enough, mind, and it wouldn't be the first McLaren to pack in after a bumpy ride - Montoya in Melbourne had his switch off totally, though he really, really lumped it into the air, and Lewis stayed pretty much on the deck the whole time.

His racecraft was straight out of one of our Poker Nights at that point, though some of his later driving on the attack was better. Kimi was faultless, but the thing with Kimi is that he doesn't make that many mistakes at the best of times - he switches off, he drives like a man who wants to be somewhere else, but he's not often all over the place, is he? The man seems to have no idea of what the word 'pressure' means.

I should stress, I suppose, that my attempt at defending Lewis is because I thought your comments might have been a bit unfair. I'm English, but as with most racing fans I'm not that concerned with nationality.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:53 pm

You're right: We have no idea of determining whether the off created the problem or not. But it must be considered.

Lewis drove well in the second half of the race. But he clearly panicked after the off, locking up and taking some odd lines while trying to scramble up through the order.

It's a compliment to him that some, including me, consider that to be crummy racecraft and cracking under pressure when considering that one, Hamilton is a 22-year-old rookie, and two, World Champions have fared much worse in the crucible. Remember Schumacher at Suzuka in 1998 when he stalled at the start, ensuring Hakkinen a smoother drive to the world title?

Hamilton is exceptional, and he will win the World Championship, perhaps next season. I don't think he'll rue this season 15 years from now as his best chance that got away.

But I agree with Maurice Hamilton of Five Live that Ron Dennis needs to reconsider his strategy of driver equality. It's admirable as hell but quaint in this day and age. The Ron threw away a world title this year because of it.

I'm also surprised The Ron let the policy play out to the very end. He certainly had no problem showing favoritism to Hakkinen over Coulthard during the late 90s. Different case this year, I guess, as the favored son was a rookie and the No. 2 was a two-time reigning World Champion.

Still, natural selection must force the team to focus on a No. 1 at some point of the season. If McLaren had put full might behind Lewis when he led by double-digit points earlier this fall, he would have been World Champion.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:11 pm

GB_Simo wrote: Rod, regardless of how Fernando arrives at the conclusion that giving Hamilton the title now would be an embarrassment, he's right, isn't he?

No not at all. If there was a violation of the rules and it can be proven that both the BMW and Williams cars "created an unfair advantage that gave them their gap between them and Lewis" then they should be punished, no question. The bigger question what penalty will they decide.

Now it's up to the FIA whether they want the wrath of their fans to turn on them is a different matter. If they decide to overturn the Championship. I think the FIA spent all their good or bad will which ever side your on regarding the ludicrous penalties imposed on McLaren. It didn't help their cause that they changed their mind after the initial findings only to later come back and reverse course. Basically they created two sets of pissed off fans. That's why I don't think the decision will be overturned this time. But with regards to the FIA I gues anything is possible.

With regards to Fernando, I was just making the point that he has the unique habit of trying to make friends.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:50 pm

Right, fine, that's fair enough Rod, because then Lewis would have been cheated out of a higher finish, but the figures Jo Bauer released just aren't enough to make that kind of difference. He was 11 seconds away from where he needed to finish, and the gain in performance for the three cars ahead shouldn't have been anything like that based on what I know so far.

If it's proven otherwise, right, that's fair and proper if a little humiliating. As it is, though...no, I can't see that it'd be right.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:02 pm

pk500 wrote:It's a compliment to him that some, including me, consider that to be crummy racecraft and cracking under pressure when considering that one, Hamilton is a 22-year-old rookie, and two, World Champions have fared much worse in the crucible. Remember Schumacher at Suzuka in 1998 when he stalled at the start, ensuring Hakkinen a smoother drive to the world title?

Yep. His drive at the same venue in 2003 was also bad enough to be amusing, and just barely got him home in the 8th place he needed. Lewis did crack, but he also got himself together again, which is worth bearing in mind - there've been many older, wiser heads that couldn't do it, and this 22 year old is pretty confident he couldn't do it either.

pk500 wrote:But I agree with Maurice Hamilton of Five Live that Ron Dennis needs to reconsider his strategy of driver equality. It's admirable as hell but quaint in this day and age. The Ron threw away a world title this year because of it.

I agree, much as I like the idea of having two drivers free to race to the end, and much as it's the noble way to go racing, it's not done any good this year. Here's one for everyone, then, and I'm making a few necessary assumptions here - if Alonso is in a McLaren next year, the policy isn't going to change:

It's late November, and having confirmed that Alonso won't be in a McLaren next year you're on the lookout for a capable replacement. Your eggs are all in the Hamilton basket when it comes to winning the title, so you're after a man who won't compete with Lewis every weekend, but who has the pace to take points from his rivals and be there to win the race should your number one car falter. Who are you putting in your second car next year?

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:22 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
It's late November, and having confirmed that Alonso won't be in a McLaren next year you're on the lookout for a capable replacement. Your eggs are all in the Hamilton basket when it comes to winning the title, so you're after a man who won't compete with Lewis every weekend, but who has the pace to take points from his rivals and be there to win the race should your number one car falter. Who are you putting in your second car next year?

That's an easy one Simo. My two choices in the following order would be:

1) Heikki Kovalainen

A friend of Lewis who has shown some potential after a difficult start at Melbourne. He can be quick but he's raw and doesn't have the pace of Lewis and is an easy candidate as a good team mate to Lewis and he can develop before moving on to another contender. I see him as a guy who has no problems playing second fiddle this early in his career.

2) Felipe Massa

Gets along well with Lewis. Doesn't quite have the star power yet. Has shown to have the pace of a front runner but has not yet shown the mental toughness to be a title winner. Best example would be fellow countrymen Rubens Barrichello.

If I were Ron I would not even think about bringing in Nico Rosberg. He's a good car away from contending for the top prize. He's young, and fast and is an up and comer.

That's just my .000000002 cents in case anyone disagrees.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:47 pm

I'd go for Robert Kubiza, of course he'd probably race Lewis hard regardless of orders!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:03 pm

Good question, Adam. My answers in order of preference, factoring in the status of contracts, etc.:

1. Nico Rosberg

2. Adrian Sutil

3. Heikki Kovalainen

4. Sebastian Vettel

5. Timo Glock

Don't laugh at Sutil. First, he and Lewis are very close mates from their days as teammates in GP 2. They went on holiday together between Australia and Malaysia this season. That harmony would be manna from petrol heaven for Ron Dennis after this season from hell.

Lewis rates Sutil very highly, and Sutil has shown speed in the crate of a car known as a Spyker.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:13 am

An interesting little tidbit according to Lewis. It appears that when the car lost power during the race, Lewis says it was his mistake. He says his finger slipped on the steering wheel and accidentally pressed the starting sequence button which forced the car into neutral and he had to reinitialize the car. There supposedly is a camera that shows right around the time the car lost power they could see Lewis pressing a button on his steering column. Whoopsie

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 0432.shtml

Ron quickly denied it and blames the incident on a faulty sensor.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 4211.shtml

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:23 pm

Don't know if any of you dudes follow the Rolex Sportscar Series (AKA Grand Am), but I have a couple little tidbits for you.

Rumor has it that MSR will be switching to Ford engines after a craptacular performance year from their Lexus ones.

Also, you could see the series running in South Jersey in September of next year at the new Thunderbolt Raceway. You know I'll be heading to that one as it's pretty much in my back yard.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:12 pm

I've never watched the 1994 Imola crash that took the life of Senna and another driver on youtube. Holy sh*t I will never envy those cats who risk their lives to be F1 drivers. The German driver (I forgeot his name) who died before Senna was pretty grusome, watching the side of his car shattered and his head slumped over. What was even more grusome was watching Senna shaking his head as he watched the accident on the race monitor, not knowing he would be next.

The worse one was seeing Gilles Villeneuve tag the rear of another car in 1982 and watching his Ferrari self destruct in the air while at the same time catapulting him from his seat into a catch fence at Zolder.

Thank goodness safety has come a long way since then and the FIA should be commended. This years high speed crashrs of Raikonnen, Hamilton, and Kubica may have had a different ending 10-15 years ago.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:26 pm

Rodster:

Villeneuve's crash was the worst looking of those three you mentioned, I think. Scary thing is, Robert Kubica's wreck in June at Montreal looked worse than all three of the accidents you mentioned. But he was unhurt.

Racing safety sure has come a long way just in the last 13 years.

By the way, I don't recommend you watch Gordon Smiley's fatal accident in 1982 at Indy on YouTube. Still the most hideous wreck I've ever seen in racing. Worse than Greg Moore's, even.

The car disintegrated, and so did poor Smiley. The car simply turned right at the apex of the corner and speared head-first into the outside wall at 200 mph.

I've seen some footage of that crash not released to the public. I saw it only once. That was more than enough.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:55 pm

Thanks bro i'll take your word on Smiley's crash. Watching Gilles sail thru the air was pretty bad like he was being tossed by an angry bronco bull. I think the most disturbing image was when they showed Senna's reaction to the driver who was killed at Imola, not knowing he would die the next day. And his crash looked equally bad. One of the announcers from Speed and I blieve his name is Daly, not sure about that. But any way as he was watching the replay of the crash he said his worry was the side impact of the car at 190 mph which would cause pieces of the car to come into the cockpit of the car.

And I believe what killed Senna was a piece of suspension that went right into his helmet and into his skull. The tragic thing was he was at the end of his career so he probably would have raced a few more years.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:38 am

Rod, the other driver killed at Imola was the Austrian racer Roland Ratzenberger. The sport very nearly lost Rubens Barrichello on the Friday too, and then with a terrible startline accident and a mechanic being hurt in the pitlane during the race, that was a terrible weekend.

PK, I'm not sure I want to imagine the content of the Smiley video you've seen. The ones I've seen already are horrific enough as it is, and Dr Steve Olvey's account of it in his book Rapid Response probably gives me a fair idea of what you might have seen. Olvey suggests that Smiley had been warned about his driving, and how his road course experience didn't translate to Indy (Smiley's accident was brought about by his trying to counter-steer to correct a slide in turn 3, and his March finding grip as he did so and propelling him into the wall, which is what Dr Olvey says he was warned about) but I don't know enough about the circumstances of it to know if that's true.

I might add Tom Pryce's death at Kyalami in 1977 as another one people shouldn't make any great effort to see - the accident itself (for the benefit of those who don't know, Pryce hit a marshal running across the track with a fire extinguisher who hadn't seen cars emerging from a dip just in front of him) is bad enough, and there's some footage of it, Italian in origin if I remember right, taken from close enough to the aftermath as to be invasive.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:37 pm

Well I watched the Smiley video even though I said I wouldn't and i'm glad it was a bad video at that. Simo basically what happened is when he hit the wall and he was shot out of his race car and the impact was so violent that it ripped his helmet right off. You can actually see his helmet heading towards the infield.

One of the other comments on the Youtube video was that when he hit the catch fence his head was ripped right off his body and supposedly every bone in his body was broken. There was also another comment, that there was brain matter on the race track. Pretty grim stuff.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:49 pm

Thanks for the recap, but I've seen the video, Rod, many times - I was referring to the one PK's seen, the one that wasn't released to the public. Since I've read, in some detail, of what happened to Smiley during the accident, I really don't want to see any more than I have already.

Edit: The YouTube comments aren't inaccurate, Rod.
Edit the second: Well, except for one part, which I'll PM you with, I think...