Yeah, I remember seeing that too. I was thinking why in the hell is he doing that and why in the hell is it working.Weaver2005 wrote:This is a complete stop, not something where your slowing down to avoid the tackle. I think it has to be seen to know what I'm describing.dbdynsty25 wrote:What the hell is wrong with that? It's called avoiding tackles...it's not taking advantage of anything. You can stop faster than the defensive guy because you know when you're going to stop and they don't...so they usually go a step or two further, allowing you to cut back. Happens all the time in real life, so I see nothing wrong with doing it in a game.Weaver2005 wrote:Another thing I saw at the tourney I went to was that some players will just stop their offensive player dead in his tracks to take advantage of the player momentum.
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I didn't see the dropbacks so much as rollouts. Really, you don't have the fool the pass defense if you give the QB that kind of time. WRs aren't getting open because the defense thinks the QB is going to run. In fact, the QB could roll out and run for it against zones and the defenders won't react until he's well past the LOS unless you have a spy on him.
No it has to do with the QB being able to buy that much time, especially on rollouts where all the crossing, corner and post patterns open up. I don't know when this footage was filmed but by now, there are ways to keep QBs in the pocket, especially with Playmaker blitzes. If their only game was to pass after coverages brake down, then they wouldn't be able to handle blitzes that well.
Either the players weren't used to putting pressure or the offensive players were that good that they could evade outside rush/blitzes and still buy a ton of time. It takes a ton of stick skills to do this. A few of them said they practice 9 hours a day and I don't doubt they were serious.
On running skills, I don't remember the stopping but I see that as a sign of mastery of the control pad, not necessarily exploiting a glitch. When they introduced analog controls with this generation, one thing they might have done was give you speed control so that you can vary speeds to elude tacklers or juke someone (this would also apply to hoops games). But since you can't vary the speeds that much, coming to a stop sounds like a way to control the flow, setting up blocks, etc.
What I remember was a lot of juke moves, even in traffic, and then bouncing outside. Sometimes the juke move is unrealistically effective and I've heard references to a "juke glitch" (although I haven't seen what it's exactly suppose to be). But you have to be able to time it right and juke to the correct side depending on the relative positions of the ball carrier and the tackler. So to make the kind of plays these guys were making, they were timing it almost perfectly. Maybe these were just highlight plays and they wernen't pulling it off every play. But there sure were a lot of these highlights shown.
No it has to do with the QB being able to buy that much time, especially on rollouts where all the crossing, corner and post patterns open up. I don't know when this footage was filmed but by now, there are ways to keep QBs in the pocket, especially with Playmaker blitzes. If their only game was to pass after coverages brake down, then they wouldn't be able to handle blitzes that well.
Either the players weren't used to putting pressure or the offensive players were that good that they could evade outside rush/blitzes and still buy a ton of time. It takes a ton of stick skills to do this. A few of them said they practice 9 hours a day and I don't doubt they were serious.
On running skills, I don't remember the stopping but I see that as a sign of mastery of the control pad, not necessarily exploiting a glitch. When they introduced analog controls with this generation, one thing they might have done was give you speed control so that you can vary speeds to elude tacklers or juke someone (this would also apply to hoops games). But since you can't vary the speeds that much, coming to a stop sounds like a way to control the flow, setting up blocks, etc.
What I remember was a lot of juke moves, even in traffic, and then bouncing outside. Sometimes the juke move is unrealistically effective and I've heard references to a "juke glitch" (although I haven't seen what it's exactly suppose to be). But you have to be able to time it right and juke to the correct side depending on the relative positions of the ball carrier and the tackler. So to make the kind of plays these guys were making, they were timing it almost perfectly. Maybe these were just highlight plays and they wernen't pulling it off every play. But there sure were a lot of these highlights shown.
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Bill_Abner
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My issue with ESPN solo play isnt the AI. I actually have the slider set adjusted so that I really enjoy how the DBs play. I like how they'll blow an assignment; in Madden the WRs are never really open; they'll make catches and all that but how many times in Madden do you see a WR *really* open over the middle or open in the hole of a zone? That drives me insane in Madden. I also love that I can get YAC in ESPN whereas in Madden I catch it--I'm tackled.
ESPN frustrates me with the big plays PK mentioned and the crazy number of INTs. I have changed every slider I can to lower the number of CPU interceptions but I get at least 2 per game and sometimes 3-4. Every damn week. In week 10 with the Browns I think we have 29 picks. That's just dumb. This isn't the 1979 Steeler secondary we're talkling about here...
And yes the Big Play is the main weapon for the CPU. I may give up 120 yards rushing in a game but 70 of that will be the one time Curtis Martin gets into the secondary.
In the end I think the two games are pick your poison. Both can be fun, both are flawed, and both offer different types of experiences. Personally I just play ESPN online and have pretty much shelved solo play for both.
ESPN frustrates me with the big plays PK mentioned and the crazy number of INTs. I have changed every slider I can to lower the number of CPU interceptions but I get at least 2 per game and sometimes 3-4. Every damn week. In week 10 with the Browns I think we have 29 picks. That's just dumb. This isn't the 1979 Steeler secondary we're talkling about here...
And yes the Big Play is the main weapon for the CPU. I may give up 120 yards rushing in a game but 70 of that will be the one time Curtis Martin gets into the secondary.
In the end I think the two games are pick your poison. Both can be fun, both are flawed, and both offer different types of experiences. Personally I just play ESPN online and have pretty much shelved solo play for both.
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Personally, I'm kind of looking forward to reading PK's "I'm Done with Madden 2005" thread in another month or so. I've stayed away from Madden 2005 (and will avoid Madden 2006 like the plague), but I can't believe they've created the ultimate football package. Has EA even eliminated Mario Running from their game yet?
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pk500
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Wise-ass.GTHobbes wrote:Personally, I'm kind of looking forward to reading PK's "I'm Done with Madden 2005" thread in another month or so.
You may not read it at all, as I may not get Madden. I'm renting it soon, and it better blow me away. Football season is almost done, and I only play team sports games out of season if they're killer titles. ESPN NFL 2K5 isn't a killer title. ESPN NHL 2K5 and ESPN College Hoops 2K5 are, so they'll more than tide me over through the spring and early summer until next year's football games come out.
Plus there are racing games, military shooters, Winning Eleven for the Xbox, plenty.
Bottom line: I don't have to have a football game in my collection after the season ends unless it's killer or I get a lot of online mileage out of it, which I did with NFL 2K3 with my brother-in-law.
Take care,
PK
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Firstly, don't give Madden a quick 2 game chance and then give up on it. It takes a while to get the rhythm of the game. For example some have said the streak pattern is no good in Madden, whereas myself and others have found it very effective, just not easy to do. If you can't get good medals on Pro or better in the mini-games, I would say you haven't given Madden a fair shot. That said, I agree with Bill 100%- it's pick your poison; both have flaws, both have good things about them.pk500 wrote:Wise-ass.GTHobbes wrote:Personally, I'm kind of looking forward to reading PK's "I'm Done with Madden 2005" thread in another month or so.
Football season is almost done, and I only play team sports games out of season if they're killer titles. ESPN NFL 2K5 isn't a killer title. ESPN NHL 2K5 and ESPN College Hoops 2K5 are, so they'll more than tide me over through the spring and early summer until next year's football games come out.
Plus there are racing games, military shooters, Winning Eleven for the Xbox, plenty.
Bottom line: I don't have to have a football game in my collection after the season ends unless it's killer or I get a lot of online mileage out of it, which I did with NFL 2K3 with my brother-in-law.
Take care,
PK
Secondly, ESPN NHL may well be the nirvana of sports gaming v. CPU you describe, but ESPN College Hoops? I must be missing it. While I enjoy the game, I am consistently frustrated with a lot, and I mean a lot of things. Such as, the bizarre movement of players off the ball- I see a guy open, try to move a little to get a good passing lane, and as soon as I take a step, all the players go running around in random directions. Drives me crazy. Plus, since when did a cross-over become such a complex move that it requires a canned animation? There are a ton of things that bother me in ESPN CH (ever see a long rebound? Why is every auto-play either 'quick iso' or 'quick screen', etc.), which keep me from playing more than 2 games in a row, if that many.
And finally, don't hold your breath for a great experience in WE8 for Xbox. We are already aware that Konami is interested and excited enough in bringing WE to the NA Xbox community to go and remove online play from the NA release. It would be right in line with Konami's strategy to not only make no graphical tweaks in the port from PS2 to Xbox, resulting in possibly chuggy play and certainly in a fuzzy look, but also to make no effort to make the game playable on the Xbox controller. With no online play, I am planning on getting the PS2 version, as I fully expect the controller frustrations alone to be worth the long load-times. I'm just saying, don't get your hopes up on this one.
Zeppo,
Regarding WE8. I'm sure you've been reading the various soccer boards. The PS2 might not be the way to go because of its limitations. Seabass has continously said that the PS2 is one of the reasons for the slowdown. From WE8 to PES4 its getting better but its still a problem. Not as bad as NCAA 05 but its still there. The reports from the PAL Xbox versions are quite good other some complaints about the Xbox controller.
I think ESPN NHL can be fun but CH is just frustrating. Maybe problems with it are a lot like Zeppo's. Its the standard ESPN bug issues. I see a lot of weird stuff in games. My biggest complaint is that defense is completely unrealistic. I can take a quick PG and basically play a really good zone defense with no threat from the CPU. Well its a threat since the AI cheats like a bastard.
I think the most complete BBall game again is Live but its too dry for my taste. Plus College sports have a certain appeal and I think that's why so many people are overlooking the problems with CH.
Regarding WE8. I'm sure you've been reading the various soccer boards. The PS2 might not be the way to go because of its limitations. Seabass has continously said that the PS2 is one of the reasons for the slowdown. From WE8 to PES4 its getting better but its still a problem. Not as bad as NCAA 05 but its still there. The reports from the PAL Xbox versions are quite good other some complaints about the Xbox controller.
I think ESPN NHL can be fun but CH is just frustrating. Maybe problems with it are a lot like Zeppo's. Its the standard ESPN bug issues. I see a lot of weird stuff in games. My biggest complaint is that defense is completely unrealistic. I can take a quick PG and basically play a really good zone defense with no threat from the CPU. Well its a threat since the AI cheats like a bastard.
I think the most complete BBall game again is Live but its too dry for my taste. Plus College sports have a certain appeal and I think that's why so many people are overlooking the problems with CH.
Dang Zeppo just buzzkill my excitement for WE8 on the Xbox why don't you. 
As for CH I can see where you are coming from on long rebound. They are probably there but the problem is your rebounders are like Leaping Lanny Pofo and nothing gets over them. I think the fact people spend more time driving to the hole and shooting shorts shots, with a mix of threes causes long rebounds to be few and far between. My main gripe is I do not see enough variations on rebounds, like someone not catching a board and it getting tipped back out, etc.
The isomotion in both ESPN basketball games is horrid which is why I rarely ever use it in CH. Why can't one of these developers (EA/ESPN) play some ID 2004 and see how well that game did things like player movement/how to make a game w/o the need for canned animations and super forcefields. Plus the default camera in ID 2004 is second to none.
What I do not care for in either ESPN NFL or College Hoops was the way they added the AI assited momentum. It just does not feel right at all and is herky jerky.
Yet all issues aside CH is the only game I am playing right now.
As for CH I can see where you are coming from on long rebound. They are probably there but the problem is your rebounders are like Leaping Lanny Pofo and nothing gets over them. I think the fact people spend more time driving to the hole and shooting shorts shots, with a mix of threes causes long rebounds to be few and far between. My main gripe is I do not see enough variations on rebounds, like someone not catching a board and it getting tipped back out, etc.
The isomotion in both ESPN basketball games is horrid which is why I rarely ever use it in CH. Why can't one of these developers (EA/ESPN) play some ID 2004 and see how well that game did things like player movement/how to make a game w/o the need for canned animations and super forcefields. Plus the default camera in ID 2004 is second to none.
What I do not care for in either ESPN NFL or College Hoops was the way they added the AI assited momentum. It just does not feel right at all and is herky jerky.
Yet all issues aside CH is the only game I am playing right now.
Can't you just go in an add 4 full plays from your playbook to replace them? I always assumed that on auto-play calling it would switch between the 4 you have selected? I could be wrong because I always call a play everytime I go down the floors (exluding fastbreaks).Why is every auto-play either 'quick iso' or 'quick screen', etc.
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Receivers do get open, and YAC is very possible in Madden.My issue with ESPN solo play isnt the AI. I actually have the slider set adjusted so that I really enjoy how the DBs play. I like how they'll blow an assignment; in Madden the WRs are never really open; they'll make catches and all that but how many times in Madden do you see a WR *really* open over the middle or open in the hole of a zone? That drives me insane in Madden. I also love that I can get YAC in ESPN whereas in Madden I catch it--I'm tackled.
***EDIT***
I should probably add that I only play online, so this may not be true for offline play.
In ESPN Man-to-Man is exactly like Madden. They will never blow assignments. And their zone is exactly like Madden. Its just holes in the zones that make it look like these guys are open.
I rarely see wide open guys in both games if the defense is in man-to-man. And blown coverages isn't in any football games, its just zones that have holes.
I rarely see wide open guys in both games if the defense is in man-to-man. And blown coverages isn't in any football games, its just zones that have holes.
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dbdynsty25
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Well, that doesn't seem to work for me. I've changed all 4 available plays, and the auto-called plays remain the 'quick' group, with 'quick iso' being by far the most commonly called. I'm afraid to pick a play online, and so I don't even want to get into the habit offline, but sometimes I just have to.bdoughty wrote:Can't you just go in an add 4 full plays from your playbook to replace them? I always assumed that on auto-play calling it would switch between the 4 you have selected? I could be wrong because I always call a play everytime I go down the floors (exluding fastbreaks).
But it may well be the team I play with. I almost never play offline with anyone other than UMD, so that may well be part of it. Other teams may have other plays called by the auto-play caller, I dunno. I need to get better with the icon passing, too, as I have major troubles getting the ball into the low post with the directional passing, and since the Terps don't have a single buy with a 3-point shot rating above 73, they need to work that low-post game.
I like it less as time goes on...the scripted hot and cold streaks are pissing me off.There's not enough of a difference between Bugtussle U and Duke or UNC,either.Still play it but ESPNNBA is getting more time now.Didn't think I'd be saying that a few weeks ago.dbdynsty25 wrote:I've been saying that since the damn thing came out. It is NOT a good basketball game by any stretch of MY imagination.JRod wrote:Plus College sports have a certain appeal and I think that's why so many people are overlooking the problems with CH.
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Bill_Abner
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With any of these games it's all a matter of what you are and what you are not willing to deal with. I have personally felt for years that the worst genre for sports games was basketball. Even though I liked the Inside Drive series even going back to when it was on the PC, I always felt that the entire genre as a whole underachieved. It's not too hard to find flaws in CH--they are definitely there. But for whatever reason I'm willing to accept the flaws and I'm still playing fairly regularly. And of course the college setting helps; why does that mean people that like it are blind to its faults? The fact that it is a college game and has a cool recruiting model is a reason why I'm willing to live with gameplay quirks. It's exactly like NCAA Football. The gameplay in that series even from 2003 and 2004 was hardly Grade A Perfecto. But the college stuff is a big draw for some.
I do disagree about the team differences, though. When I play a good team I certainly see it. I started with Navy and finished the season 16-12 and won the Patriot League tourney to get in as a 16 seed..where upon Florida beat me 88-55. There are w/o a doubt areas where the game needs to be improved, but we can say that about every game on the market. I'm enjoying this basketball game as much as I have any hoop game ever made, even with the obvious warts.
As for ESPN NFL and Madden I disagree about the man to man stuff. I NEVER play Man in ESPN because that's where I see the most drastic AI holes. I live in the zone. I still like the fact that players get open more in ESPN and maybe it is possible to get some YAC in Madden but I have always struggled with getting YAC with this engine, and that includes the NCAA series. I still think it's a matter of picking your poison with these two games but I really, really wish ESPN's franchise mode wasn't so damn bizarre. The perfect game for me would be to take bits and pieces from each and meld them into a the Frankenstein's Monster of football games.
That said, I got an email from a buddy of mine that suggested I play the game in "Slow" game speed. I did that and I dunno if it was a fluke (we'll see) but the game played surprisingly different with the speed lowered. The CPU QB completed 60%, (Kitna no less) and only had 1 Hail Mary INT and the game wasn't a shootout (which most of my offline ESPN games are). And I gave up zero big plays (big as in plays over 40 yards, which I usually give up at leats once per game).
It was most likely a fluke, but it was the most fun I have had with the game offline in weeks.
I do disagree about the team differences, though. When I play a good team I certainly see it. I started with Navy and finished the season 16-12 and won the Patriot League tourney to get in as a 16 seed..where upon Florida beat me 88-55. There are w/o a doubt areas where the game needs to be improved, but we can say that about every game on the market. I'm enjoying this basketball game as much as I have any hoop game ever made, even with the obvious warts.
As for ESPN NFL and Madden I disagree about the man to man stuff. I NEVER play Man in ESPN because that's where I see the most drastic AI holes. I live in the zone. I still like the fact that players get open more in ESPN and maybe it is possible to get some YAC in Madden but I have always struggled with getting YAC with this engine, and that includes the NCAA series. I still think it's a matter of picking your poison with these two games but I really, really wish ESPN's franchise mode wasn't so damn bizarre. The perfect game for me would be to take bits and pieces from each and meld them into a the Frankenstein's Monster of football games.
That said, I got an email from a buddy of mine that suggested I play the game in "Slow" game speed. I did that and I dunno if it was a fluke (we'll see) but the game played surprisingly different with the speed lowered. The CPU QB completed 60%, (Kitna no less) and only had 1 Hail Mary INT and the game wasn't a shootout (which most of my offline ESPN games are). And I gave up zero big plays (big as in plays over 40 yards, which I usually give up at leats once per game).
It was most likely a fluke, but it was the most fun I have had with the game offline in weeks.
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pk500
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Yeah, I disagree about the lack of differences between teams. For example, I took my favorite team (Syracuse) to my alma mater (Marist) and won by 30. Never trailed in the game once.
But I do think the developers had a woody for Travis Diener of Marquette in this game. He is absolutely unstoppable. Guy lights me up for 35+ every game, regardless of what kind of defense I use to try and stop him!
Take care,
PK
But I do think the developers had a woody for Travis Diener of Marquette in this game. He is absolutely unstoppable. Guy lights me up for 35+ every game, regardless of what kind of defense I use to try and stop him!
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
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pk500
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Back to the topic at hand, Madden 2005, has anyone seen this exhaustive thread at MaddenMania about how these two sick bastards -- and I say that with utmost respect -- went through every aspect of Madden, both in play and coach mode, to develop a formula and slider set for realism?
http://www.maddenmania.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=80344
It's worth registering at MaddenMania to see this. These guys should get a PhD in Madden. I don't know if this works, as I don't have the game yet, but the feedback sure looks good. And the theory behind the formula and sliders is exhaustive and looks pretty smart.
Take care,
PK
http://www.maddenmania.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=80344
It's worth registering at MaddenMania to see this. These guys should get a PhD in Madden. I don't know if this works, as I don't have the game yet, but the feedback sure looks good. And the theory behind the formula and sliders is exhaustive and looks pretty smart.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
You need to set up the cpu coaching profiles and use the sub packages to make SM27's stuff work,and even then I don't think it's any more real than Millenium's or Jistic's sliders(or my own).The sliders rely on fatigue to disadvantage the human player. They sim very well,though.If you are relatively new to Madden or haven't played for a while they may be frustratingly tough as well.Some general slider principles when you get the game:Lower QB accuracy,lower tackling, and increase penalties(except face mask).10 minute quarters with accel clock yields solid stats.I generally leave the blocking sliders alone.Lowering tackling allows RB's to break tackles and make yards.Increasing RB ability slider affects how all ball carriers perform,WR's and QB's included, making them all unnaturally tough to stop and able to pull off crazy moves.
The above was off the top of my head.What I'm running with...12 min. quarters,Acc.clock on-all assists on + quick passing.Sub in/out @ 84%/89%.All penalties maxed except face mask,which is 2 clicks down from max.All sliders default except:CPU QB Acc. -4;CPU Pass Block-4;CPU and Human Tackling -4 and CPU Break Block-4.Special Teams:CPU and Human FG Acc.-3;CPU and Human Kick-Off Length -1 and CPU and Human Punt Length +2. These give me the best stats and scores yet on this year's version.As always YMMV.Be sure to get the Dec.24 roster update via Live,too.
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pk500
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Thanks for all the help, Skins. I may have missed it, but on what skill level are you playing?
Thanks,
PK
Thanks,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
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PK,pk500 wrote:Back to the topic at hand, Madden 2005, has anyone seen this exhaustive thread at MaddenMania about how these two sick bastards -- and I say that with utmost respect -- went through every aspect of Madden, both in play and coach mode, to develop a formula and slider set for realism?
http://www.maddenmania.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=80344
It's worth registering at MaddenMania to see this. These guys should get a PhD in Madden. I don't know if this works, as I don't have the game yet, but the feedback sure looks good. And the theory behind the formula and sliders is exhaustive and looks pretty smart.
Take care,
PK
I have been playing Madden with this guy's sliders for the last two weeks. I posted about this but no one reads my posts anyways so I'm glad someone found the MaddenMania post.
There is a little bit of a set-up each week and for later franchise years but after you play your first game with these sliders and coaching changes it saves Madden.
Let me add that Madden right now has taken over my #1 spot in my rotation. I think that says a lot about the amount of work SM and Brit have put in this little project.
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pk500
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Thanks, man!skinsfan wrote:All-Pro.All-Madden is more playable this year than in year's past-it doesn't cheat near as bad.I find A-P to be about the most even between human and cpu players,though.The developers have always said that All-Pro is where the players play truest to their ratings.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
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XBL Gamertag: pk4425
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pk500
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John:
I'm eager to try these sliders when I rent Madden later this week. My next two nights are tied up with college football and Premiership games, so probably Wednesday at the earliest.
Thanks again,
PK
I'm eager to try these sliders when I rent Madden later this week. My next two nights are tied up with college football and Premiership games, so probably Wednesday at the earliest.
Thanks again,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425