R.I.P. those affected by the school shooting in CT

[TheTruth]

What I saw this morning is he shot his mother then went to the school that was locked down and shot his way in through a window (so no one let him in) and then did the rest. My kids school has a locked down entrance and you need to be buzzed in and then enter through the office before getting into the rest of the school. I'm sure they don't have bullet proof glass.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is spin control quite honestly. They don't want every parent in the world freaking out about how easy it was to get past the "security" system that was in place. They don't want every parent going apesh*t at the next school board meeting because their child's school doesn't have a system nearly as sophisticated. That's my tin foil hat response. If I'm completely wrong and they give us some proof that happened, then by all means I can believe it. But I'm skeptical. It seems like that's the first thing they'd say yesterday but that info is just NOW coming out. Hmmm.

I'm not so sure DB. I heard some of the first responder radio calls and I seem to recall one of them mentioning the front glass being broken. I only heard these once, so I may be mistaken. Either way, if someone is armed like that and determined...they are going to be able to gain entry into a elementary school.

[sportdan30]

Per blogger at CNN:

Updated at 12:30 a.m. ET] Despite earlier reports that said she was a teacher, Nancy Lanza, the suspect's mother, was not a teacher at the school where the killings took place, said Janet Vollmer, a kindergarten teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Not much is known about the suspect's mother or the suspect Adam Lanza. In September 2009 - when Adam Lanza was 17 - his mother and father divorced, court documents show. What happened after that for him, what caused the shootings that has shocked the nation, isn't clear.

[Gangrel]

I know I'm a bit detached from this being in Canada and all, but a tragedy is still a tragedy. While I agree some talk of gun control is needed at some point, though it appears the mother legally owned all three guns..... I think what's needed more is a talk on mental health and what can be done to better identify problems in individuals.

I haven't seen much about the shooter's mental state (though I will admit I've been out most of the day) but I would hope that no "sane" person did this...... if it turns out he had some form of mental illness, THAT should be the talking point on all the news broadcasts, not a blurb about guns........

[Teal]

No talk of gun control is going to do anything good. The fact that it's already being bantered about is proof that people are leaping before they look based upon emotion (and trust me, I thought hard about it yesterday, and felt the pull emotionally, but that's never a good reason to do anything). We already have stringent gun controls, and the woman DID legally own the guns. All that happened yesterday is that a 20 year old bastard murdered 20 innocent kindergardeners, and six others. On the same day, in China, a murderous bastard carved up several children in a school with a knife. Murderous bastards will not go away with the stroke of some politician's pen. So I say any and all talk of 'gun control' is nonsensical from the get-go. Murderous bastard control is, however, ripe for discussion.

[pk500]

There were 27 incidents of school killings by gun with multiple victims in the United States between 1764-2010. There were 28 incidents of school killings by gun with multiple victims in 37 other nations COMBINED worldwide during the same span. A fact to digest.

http://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings ... -together/

The fact that the guns used in Connecticut were purchased legally should not be used as a crutch for gun advocates. It should be a clarion call that something is seriously f*cked-up with our gun laws. I wonder: Was Adam Lanza living under the same roof as his mother when she purchased the guns used to slaughter 20 kids yesterday? Had he shown even a trace of mental illness? If the answer is yes to both -- and I don't know the answers -- then that woman NEVER should have been allowed to purchase guns. Period. Especially one like this .223 Bushmaster, which Adam Lanza reportedly used to kill 26 Friday:



This is the same kind of weapon that Lee Malvo and John Muhammad used in the D.C. sniper spree in 2002.

Yes, I'm a Libertarian. But I have a very hard time justifying the open-ended nature of the Second Amendment when it allows such easy access to handguns and assault rifles, especially to mentally disturbed people. Sure, NRA types will counter by saying "people kill, not guns." And there are overseas examples like the dude with the knife in China.

But hardly anyone shoots up a school with a 12-gauge shotgun or crossbow, weapons used for hunting. They use handguns or assault rifles.

We can stick our heads in the sand and rest on the pillar of the Second Amendment all we want. But I think the Founding Fathers would have framed that amendment much differently if writing the Constitution in our world and culture today.

America needs more morals. America needs better treatment for the mentally ill. America also needs to control access to handguns and assault rifles much more strictly, too. Simple statistics show that nations with strict or no access to handguns and assault rifles have fewer wrongful deaths by handgun or assault rifle.

[Teal]

I don't. I believe they would cringe at the level of control over law-abiding citizens' access to firearms that is ALREADY in place. The only way to stop bad people with guns, is for good people to have them. Because bad people don't give a damn about laws and such.

But I digress, because I don't want to politicize any further a situation that has already been far too politicized. But I will not stand idly by while some politician 'never lets a crisis go to waste'.

[Teal]

And, as 'scary' as the Bushmaster looks, it's nothing but a rifle. Same as any other rifle.

[pk500]

And, as 'scary' as the Bushmaster looks, it's nothing but a rifle. Same as any other rifle.

Exactly. An AR-15 rifle that is nearly identical to the M16 used by the U.S. Armed Forces, except that an AR-15 is semi-automatic and an M16 is fully automatic.

That weapon does not need to be in the hands of consumers, especially one who might have had a mentally ill person in her house. It's a civilian adaptation of a military weapon.

[pk500]

I don't. I believe they would cringe at the level of control over law-abiding citizens' access to firearms that is ALREADY in place. The only way to stop bad people with guns, is for good people to have them. Because bad people don't give a damn about laws and such.

Sincerely curious: Do you want to arm teachers in American public schools as a deterrent to mass shootings?

[JOZ]

Crazy people are going to do crazy things, laws or not. They would just find another way or break those laws to do it. While I don't think any gun laws are going to keep these things from happening, nobody has any reason to have the gun above except a soldier in the military. There is only 2 reasons to have guns: protection and hunting. The gun above is overkill for both.

[greggsand]

I'm sure this thread is headed for 'lock city', but what the heck. I've never owned a gun, (prob) never will. If I was in a restaurant, theater, or (god forbid) a school where everyone was a packing a gun, I'd feel absolutely no safer (in fact I'd probably be terrified).

[Teal]

I don't. I believe they would cringe at the level of control over law-abiding citizens' access to firearms that is ALREADY in place. The only way to stop bad people with guns, is for good people to have them. Because bad people don't give a damn about laws and such.

Sincerely curious: Do you want to arm teachers in American public schools as a deterrent to mass shootings?

Absolutely. Provided the teacher goes through background checks. I'm a huge proponent of conceal-carry permits. When an idiot knows that there is a guarantee that there are more guns, and people trained to use them, than he has, you have an automatic deterrent. No one but a fool would try to shoot up a gun store. There's a reason for that. Arm the good people, and you have all the deterrent you will ever need from bad people. And the only deterrent you're ever gonna get.

[Teal]

Fellas, the Bushmaster .223 IS a hunting rifle. It's the exact same .223 as your standard Winchester .223. It just has a "look" of some military grade rifle. There is categorically zero reason to ban that weapon.

[pk500]

Absolutely. Provided the teacher goes through background checks. I'm a huge proponent of conceal-carry permits. When an idiot knows that there is a guarantee that there are mo re guns, and people trained to use them, than he has, you have an automatic deterrent. No one but a fool would try to shoot up a gun store. There's a reason for that. Arm the good people, and you have all the deterrent you will ever need from bad people. And the only deterrent you're ever gonna get.

That's a nice urban legend, or better yet, maybe a rural one. It's pretty clear the kid who shot up the elementary school in Connecticut was mentally ill. He also clearly had a death wish because he killed himself.

So do you honestly think armed teachers would have been a deterrent to a mentally ill person who was suicidal? Lanza could have cared less how many guns were in the school. That thought probably never would have crossed his mind, armed teachers or not. You're not dealing with a rational person here.

But the bottom line is that his mother was legally allowed to buy a stash of weapons, which gave him easy access to them. There were reports that he stole them from his mom. Fine. But it's a hell of a lot easier to steal from familiar people and territory than trying to rob a gun store.

[Teal]

Baloney. You arm the teachers, make them go through mandatory training before each school year, and that kid MIGHT kill one or two...not 26. It's nowhere approaching urban legend. I have a friend who owns the largest gun store in town here. He told of an idiot that came in and tried to hold up his gun shop. He paused, for effect, and said..."I think the police counted 30 bullet holes in his carcass". Every worker at that store is armed. And no one but a drugged up dummy would try such a thing. You do that at a school, or hell, a convent, and the same thing will happen.

[dbdynsty25]

For the record...no laws or changes in gun policy will do jack sh*t to stop this stuff from happening. If I want a gun I can get a gun. All this talking head stuff about policy is worth less than crap filled toilet paper. Fine I can't go buy a gun from a store but I sure as s*** can find one if I needed or wanted one. Just might take one extra day to commit the next massacre. It's sad but true. Last I checked meth is illegal but you can find and obtain and conceal it if you want to.

Security systems and technology are the answer not banning of something that can be obtained anyway.

[JOZ]

You really think the teachers are going to go for that? Be ready to up the salary for those that do. Of course we can't give schools the money they need the way it is. And do we really want that? Are people going to trust the teachers that much? Especially the stress these teachers have to deal with now. They can't discipline these kids anymore in fear that the parents are going to throw a fit. Plus they have to deal with these kids now that have no discipline at home.

Crazy people do crazy sh*t. Nothing is gonna keep them from doing it unless you have a police/military presence literally everywhere. Not going to happen.

Its a horrible tragedy. It sucks. But let's not go overboard on something that really doesn't happen very often. I think we really need to figure out why these people are going so bat sh*t crazy.

I still question why anyone needs semi-automatic weapons. Hunting? Wow, a lot of sport in that. Guess people need them now for protection since they already made the mistake of making them available.

[Jackdog]

Absolutely. Provided the teacher goes through background checks. I'm a huge proponent of conceal-carry permits. When an idiot knows that there is a guarantee that there are mo re guns, and people trained to use them, than he has, you have an automatic deterrent. No one but a fool would try to shoot up a gun store. There's a reason for that. Arm the good people, and you have all the deterrent you will ever need from bad people. And the only deterrent you're ever gonna get.

That's a nice urban legend, or better yet, maybe a rural one. It's pretty clear the kid who shot up the elementary school in Connecticut was mentally ill. He also clearly had a death wish because he killed himself.

So do you honestly think armed teachers would have been a deterrent to a mentally ill person who was suicidal? Lanza could have cared less how many guns were in the school. That thought probably never would have crossed his mind, armed teachers or not. You're not dealing with a rational person here.

But the bottom line is that his mother was legally allowed to buy a stash of weapons, which gave him easy access to them. There were reports that he stole them from his mom. Fine. But it's a hell of a lot easier to steal from familiar people and territory than trying to rob a gun store.

My take, first, arm teachers. There are veterans who teach in our schools, arm and train them. They can handle the job. Israel began a program of armed citizen guards in their schools after the Maalot massacre in the 1970s. Since the program was started, Israel has not seen a single child murdered in an Israeli school. In 2002 one of these citizen guards shot down an attempt at a school shooting. Parents volunteer to serve in plain clothes and are trained by Israel’s home guard in how to properly handle concealed semi-automatic pistols. Israel promoted the fact that the civilian volunteer guards would be in place. The publicity served as an effective deterrent to would be school shooters. I know some will say,we're not Israel. We don't face terrorist like that. Tell that to the parents that lost a child yesterday. It is time we gave our teachers the ability to defend themselves and stop pretending like a door buzzer is enough of a defense. Ask for citizen volunteers to guard the schools. I would do it for free. Anything is better than what we have now.

As far as stricter laws,what other laws do you want? It was already illegal for this guy to have guns at the school. It was illegal for him to have a gun in his car (because he couldn't legally have a permit from CT since he's under 21 and was from NJ). Oh, and let's not forget the big one, it is already illegal to unjustifiably kill someone. Laws didn't deter this guy one bit. Maybe a legally armed person could have. There is a reason these shootings happen at schools,malls,and other "Gun Free" areas. Scott's right,some things just cannot be prevented. Unfortunately there will always be evil in this world, taking away the rights of the law abiding citizen does not prevent evil people from finding a way to do dirt. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asi ... index.html

I know many will disagree,but as always I don't give a damn. Desperate times call for thinking out of the box. I'm out. Hug your loved ones a bit tighter and take care.

[pk500]

Israel also has much stiffer civilian gun laws than the U.S.:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... g-utopias/

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07 ... lence-down

[Feanor]

I don't even know what to say about this, makes me sick to my stomach. I'm steering clear from the gun argument because I know how I feel and I have many good friends who feel differently and own guns. Right now my focus is how as a parent can I send my girls to school and know they are safe and yesterday was a stark reminder you can't.

Not in this country. Makes me glad I don't have any kids.

[Jackdog]

Israel also has much stiffer civilian gun laws than the U.S.:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... g-utopias/

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07 ... lence-down

Chicago and NYC have the strictest gun laws in this country. How's that working out? I understand the gun laws they have. In your rush to take more rights away from law abiding citizens you completely glossed over the point about the plan that works in their schools. That was my point. This is normally why I stay out of these kind of threads so soon after this kind of horrific tragedy. Emotions stand in the way of realism. The reality of all the mass shootings is simply this. Weather it's children or people shopping or sitting in pews. They are like sheep to the slaughter in the minds of the monsters that do this. They do damage in minutes. This country has thousands of properly trained citizens. I know more than a few and I trust them with my life. Again,this is a better option for me than anything in place right now.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-a ... 93571.html

Michigan wakes up.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... s-churches

[pk500]

Chicago and NYC have the strictest gun laws in this country. How's that working out?

From an October news report: Homicides in New York City have plummeted 18 percent in 2012 over the same period last year and, with three months left in the year, are at a rate among the lowest seen in the post-World War II period, records show.

Maybe gang-bangers are less accurate or hospitals more effective these days, but those numbers indicate something is working in NYC.

I have no problem with citizens properly trained and armed and also trust our police and armed forces implicitly. For example, I trust the "school resource officer" -- is there a more gay, PC name for a school security official? -- in our district, who is armed. He's a former soldier, great guy. But how many people who are armed have been properly trained or have maintained their training? That's why I like the Israeli model of forcing people to re-register their handguns every three years.

And how many teachers -- who, let's face it, usually lean toward the liberal side of the fence -- are going to mentally buy into weapons training even if it's a job prerequisite?

And what's to prevent a strong, athletic high school student with anger management issues wrestling a gun away from an armed waif of a teacher who is 5-foot, 100 pounds? And how many kids would be caught in the crossfire of such a struggle, especially if other armed teachers entered the classroom and started shooting?

There's no simple answer. This is a complex, complex issue with valid points on both sides.

[Jackdog]

Chicago and NYC have the strictest gun laws in this country. How's that working out?

From an October news report: Homicides in New York City have plummeted 18 percent in 2012 over the same period last year and, with three months left in the year, are at a rate among the lowest seen in the post-World War II period, records show.

I have no problem with citizens properly trained and armed and also trust our police and armed forces implicitly. But how many people who are armed have been properly trained? And how many teachers -- who, let's face it, usually lean toward the liberal side of the fence -- are going to mentally buy into weapons training even if it's a job prerequisite?

And what's to prevent a strong, athletic high school student with anger management issues wrestling a gun away from an armed waif of a teacher who is 5-foot, 100 pounds? And how many kids would be caught in the crossfire of such a struggle, especially if other armed teachers entered the classroom and started shooting?

There's no simple answer. This is a complex, complex issue with valid points on both sides.

[wco81]

I agree with Teal and Jackdog. The problem isn't too many guns, it's not enough guns!

Arming the teachers could also improve discipline at schools. Firing a couple of shots in the air now and then will make unruly kids sit up and take notice.

[pk500]

Damn, Jackdiggity, you're quick on the reply! Didn't even give me a chance to finish my customary edit.