OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 3

[davet010]

PK - In answer to your question, I suspect that Thatcher will be hotter sooner, as she will hopefully be burning in hell. The VP one leaves me cold, I've seen (and worked with) plenty of flint-eyed harridans like that.

But the Italian Minister for Equal Ops...crikey.

Of course, being Italy, she's probably out of Govt by now.

[JackB1]

Interesting poll results so far. Last election I swear we were overwhelmingly republican here and now it's close to 50/50.

I would like to direct a question towards those definitely voting Rep, because I just want to understand. Personally, I can't imagine I would vote Dem. again if the Dem's were in charge the past 8 years and the the economy was as bad as it is, gas prices were as bad as they are, home values are lower than ever, we are stuck in a war with no way out, etc. etc. Most people (over 75%) aren't happy with the direction we are headed and most agree the Bush Presidency has been a utter disappointment. So given all this, how do you justify keeping the same party in the White House? Do you believe McCain is
that different from Bush? or are you afraid to take a chance on the
inexperience of Obama? or do you just stick with your party no matter what? What is the reason? Most political analysts are amazed at the current poll numbers given the dissatisfaction with the current administration.

This is a 100% sincere question and I really would like to understand your thinking. Personally, I believe it is undying party loyalty. Am I wrong?

[F308GTB]

This is a 100% sincere question and I really would like to understand your thinking. Personally, I believe it is undying party loyalty. Am I wrong?

I don't belong to any party. In my past I've voted for all sorts, from Jesse Jackson in the Michigan primaries in my college days, Ross Perot, Hilary in the last Texas primary, and several Republicans. I'm not sure who I'm voting for yet, but I know it won't be Obama. I don't want the Dems in the White House since I don't want another 4 years of single party dominance in the White House and Congress. Plus I just don't trust Obama.

I'll admit Bush is one of the worst of all time, but that doesn't predict the future performance of a potential McCain presidency. Apples and oranges. I think most people are intelligent enough to separate the failings of Bush from the party. Heck, Republicans even want to get some distance from Bush.

[Naples39]

I at least try to vote for the candidate, not the party. Hard to separate the two at times, but it's worth trying.

I just don't buy the Obama party line that a vote for McCain is more of Bush. McCain has never a part of the neo-con, evangelical core that defined Bush.

And I certainly wouldn't be voting republican out of undying party loyalty---should I vote McCain, this would be the first time I've ever voted republican for president.

If I had to point to one single factor that will decide my vote this year, it is a mistrust of Obama. The guy is selling himself as pragmatic and post-partisan, but I think once in office he will veer hard left, which as a moderate I simply cannot support. McCain, for all his faults, has proven his willingness to find solutions in the middle.

[webdanzer]

Last election I swear we wer eoverwhelmingly republican here and now it's close to 50/50.

Wrong.

Last election poll results:

http://www.digitalsportspage.com/module ... viewresult

George Bush & Richard Cheney (Republican) 34% [ 23 ]
John Kerry & John Edwards (Democrat) 50% [ 33 ]
Ralph Nader & Peter Miguel Camejo (Reform) 4% [ 3 ]
Michael Badnarik & Richard Campagna (Libertarian) 9% [ 6 ]
David Cobb & Patricia LaMarche (Green) 0% [ 0 ]
Michael Peroutka & Chuck Baldwin (Constitution) 0% [ 0 ]
Other (Write-In) 1% [ 1 ]

Total Votes : 66

[fsquid]

Won't vote for Obama because his economic policies will hurt the US economy even more. I think you need to focus more on making poor people richer than on making rich people poorer. That means jobs, and jobs means investment. You can't be pro-jobs without being pro-business (which democrat was fond of that statement?).

[Slumberland]

Other (Write-In) 1% [ 1 ]

XXXIV, writing in Marshall Faulk?

[Brando70]

Nice ...

My boss has been walking around telling everyone that would listen that Palin cut special ed funds...I bought it

At least people putting credence in shady Internet e-mails appears to be a bipartisan activity!

[JackB1]

Last election I swear we wer eoverwhelmingly republican here and now it's close to 50/50.

Wrong.

Last election poll results:

http://www.digitalsportspage.com/module ... viewresult

Interesting. Thanks for digging up that old thread. Will be interesting to compare now with then, once we get more votes.

[JackB1]

I think you need to focus more on making poor people richer than on making rich people poorer.

I agree with your statement, but What does McCain plan to do that will make poor people richer? He barely mentioned the economy in his speech at the convention. I believe whichever candidate convinces the American public that they will benefit the economy the most, will win the election.

[XXXIV]

Nice ...

My boss has been walking around telling everyone that would listen that Palin cut special ed funds...I bought it

At least people putting credence in shady Internet e-mails appears to be a bipartisan activity!

Ya but he only repeats the one side...

EDIT: He got it from CNN...He doesnt know what a PC is.

[XXXIV]

I agree with your statement, but What does McCain plan to do that will make poor people richer? .

Buy them winning lottery tickets?

[XXXIV]

Other (Write-In) 1% [ 1 ]

XXXIV, writing in Marshall Faulk?

...Wasnt me I swear...

[wco81]

What has McCain proposed that is different from Bush's policies?

He's not pretending that he'll have a different tax policy than Bush.

He's obviously on board with Bush regarding Iraq.

His health care plan isn't the same as Bush but involves tax credits and health savings plans, concepts which have in common things Bush has said.

He called the current social security system a "disgrace" that young people have to fund retirees and are unable to invest in their own accounts.

He's making a great deal about getting rid of earmarks but earmarks comprise a few percent at most of the federal budget. He hasn't said which programs he'll cut.

He's said he'll appoint more judges like Alito and Roberts.

Is there something else he's talked about that is a big departure from existing Bush/GOP policies?

What is he going to try that Bush hasn't already?

Which of his policies are going to have better results than Bush's policies?

[RobVarak]

I've done some excerpting to disabuse people of the silly notion that McCain barely mentioned the economy in his acceptance. One may disagree with his policies or the philosophy behind them, but the economy is discussed as much or more than virtually any other issue.

These are tough times for many of you. You're worried about keeping your job or finding a new one, and are struggling to put food on the table and stay in your home. All you ever asked of government is to stand on your side, not in your way. And that's just what I intend to do: stand on your side and fight for your future.

...

I fight for Americans. I fight for you. I fight for Bill and Sue Nebe from Farmington Hills, Michigan, who lost their real estate investments in the bad housing market. Bill got a temporary job after he was out of work for seven months. Sue works three jobs to help pay the bills.

We believe in low taxes; spending discipline, and open markets. We believe in rewarding hard work and risk takers and letting people keep the fruits of their labor.

...

I will keep taxes low and cut them where I can. My opponent will raise them. I will open new markets to our goods and services. My opponent will close them. I will cut government spending. He will increase it.

My tax cuts will create jobs. His tax increases will eliminate them. My health care plan will make it easier for more Americans to find and keep good health care insurance. His plan will force small businesses to cut jobs, reduce wages, and force families into a government run health care system where a bureaucrat stands between you and your doctor.

Keeping taxes low helps small businesses grow and create new jobs. Cutting the second highest business tax rate in the world will help American companies compete and keep jobs from moving overseas. Doubling the child tax exemption from $3500 to $7000 will improve the lives of millions of American families. Reducing government spending and getting rid of failed programs will let you keep more of your own money to save, spend and invest as you see fit. Opening new markets and preparing workers to compete in the world economy is essential to our future prosperity.

...

I know some of you have been left behind in the changing economy and it often seems your government hasn't even noticed. Government assistance for unemployed workers was designed for the economy of the 1950s. That's going to change on my watch. My opponent promises to bring back old jobs by wishing away the global economy. We're going to help workers who've lost a job that won't come back, find a new one that won't go away.

We will prepare them for the jobs of today. We will use our community colleges to help train people for new opportunities in their communities. For workers in industries that have been hard hit, we'll help make up part of the difference in wages between their old job and a temporary, lower paid one while they receive retraining that will help them find secure new employment at a decent wage.

Edit: Cut out the remainder for the sake of brevity. The entire text is readily available.

[Brando70]

Nice ...

My boss has been walking around telling everyone that would listen that Palin cut special ed funds...I bought it

At least people putting credence in shady Internet e-mails appears to be a bipartisan activity!

Ya but he only repeats the one side...

EDIT: He got it from CNN...He doesnt know what a PC is.

It was nice to see because, for years, when people forwarded me THINGS YOU HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT CANDIDATE X e-mails, they have usually been about liberal politicians -- how many people the Clintons have had killed, Obama's plans to turn the US into a Muslim state, Al Gore is really a cyborg, etc.

[RobVarak]

It was nice to see because, for years, when people forwarded me THINGS YOU HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT CANDIDATE X e-mails, they have usually been about liberal politicians -- how many people the Clintons have had killed, Obama's plans to turn the US into a Muslim state, Al Gore is really a cyborg, etc.

Hey, I looked over at Snopes. That last one is true.

[JackB1]

I've done some excerpting to disabuse people of the silly notion that McCain barely mentioned the economy in his acceptance. One may disagree with his policies or the philosophy behind them, but the economy is discussed as much or more than virtually any other issue.

These are tough times for many of you. You're worried about keeping your job or finding a new one, and are struggling to put food on the table and stay in your home. All you ever asked of government is to stand on your side, not in your way. And that's just what I intend to do: stand on your side and fight for your future.

How will you fight for our future?

...

I fight for Americans. I fight for you. I fight for Bill and Sue Nebe from Farmington Hills, Michigan, who lost their real estate investments in the bad housing market. Bill got a temporary job after he was out of work for seven months. Sue works three jobs to help pay the bills.

Again...how?

We believe in low taxes; spending discipline, and open markets. We believe in rewarding hard work and risk takers and letting people keep the fruits of their labor.

Untrue. Low taxes for the wealthy. Middle class gets no tax breaks.


I will keep taxes low and cut them where I can. My opponent will raise them. I will open new markets to our goods and services. My opponent will close them. I will cut government spending. He will increase it.

Untrue again. Obama will raise taxes on those earning more than 250K per year. Middle class = uneffected.


My tax cuts will create jobs. His tax increases will eliminate them. My health care plan will make it easier for more Americans to find and keep good health care insurance. His plan will force small businesses to cut jobs, reduce wages, and force families into a government run health care system where a bureaucrat stands between you and your doctor.

Again...very vague with no specifics.


Keeping taxes low helps small businesses grow and create new jobs. Cutting the second highest business tax rate in the world will help American companies compete and keep jobs from moving overseas. Doubling the child tax exemption from $3500 to $7000 will improve the lives of millions of American families. Reducing government spending and getting rid of failed programs will let you keep more of your own money to save, spend and invest as you see fit. Opening new markets and preparing workers to compete in the world economy is essential to our future prosperity.

Might benefit large corporations, but not the average person.

I know some of you have been left behind in the changing economy and it often seems your government hasn't even noticed. Government assistance for unemployed workers was designed for the economy of the 1950s. That's going to change on my watch. My opponent promises to bring back old jobs by wishing away the global economy. We're going to help workers who've lost a job that won't come back, find a new one that won't go away.

Again...sounds great, but how?


We will prepare them for the jobs of today. We will use our community colleges to help train people for new opportunities in their communities. For workers in industries that have been hard hit, we'll help make up part of the difference in wages between their old job and a temporary, lower paid one while they receive retraining that will help them find secure new employment at a decent wage.

Again...no specifics. "Use our colleges to train people for new opportunities". What a groundbreaking concept!


Edit: Cut out the remainder for the sake of brevity. The entire text is readily available.

Funny how people knock Obama for not being specific. I found him WAY more specific about what and how he will meet his goals than McCain was.
Proves how people just hear what they want to hear.

[GameSeven]

Funny how people knock Obama for not being specific. I found him WAY more specific about what and how he will meet his goals than McCain was.
Proves how people just hear what they want to hear.

I'm just curious, Jack, do you ever proofread your posts for how they might sound? It continues to astound me that for all of the "open-mindedness" of the American Left, they will often be the first to tell you your thinking is wrong if you don't see things through their narrow specs...

[davet010]

Funny how people knock Obama for not being specific. I found him WAY more specific about what and how he will meet his goals than McCain was.
Proves how people just hear what they want to hear.

I'm just curious, Jack, do you ever proofread your posts for how they might sound? It continues to astound me that for all of the "open-mindedness" of the American Left, they will often be the first to tell you your thinking is wrong if you don't see things through their narrow specs...

I love the phrase "American Left" - it's an oxymoron. From Europe, it looks like "American Centre-ish with a slight lean to the right" vs "American Hard-Right with added Evangelicalism, maybe".

[Jackdog]

Interesting poll results so far. Last election I swear we were overwhelmingly republican here and now it's close to 50/50.

I would like to direct a question towards those definitely voting Rep, because I just want to understand. Personally, I can't imagine I would vote Dem. again if the Dem's were in charge the past 8 years and the the economy was as bad as it is, gas prices were as bad as they are, home values are lower than ever, we are stuck in a war with no way out, etc. etc. Most people (over 75%) aren't happy with the direction we are headed and most agree the Bush Presidency has been a utter disappointment.

But even more Americans agree that the Congress is worst. So since it's Democratic Congress they get a lot of blame as well. As far as the war in Iraq goes. I believe we are very close to major troop reductions from that country in the next 2 years. 8,000 troops are coming home in Febuary without any replacements going back. That's a good start. The "Surge" worked. McCain understood that. The soldiers have turned a shitty situation around because they were allowed to do thier jobs with the proper enforcements. Biden's plan for splitting Iraq is not being accepted well in Iraq. If elected and Obama decides to go with this plan it could set that country's progress back to pre-surge days of civil war.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who called on the Iraqi parliament to meet and formally reject the Biden plan, immediately went on Iraqi television with a blistering statement: "[Biden] should stand by Iraq to solidify its unity and its sovereignty . . . [He] shouldn't be proposing its division. That could be a disaster not just for Iraq but for the region.Abdul Mahdi al-Karbala'i, the representative of Iraq's most senior Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, called the Senate resolution "a step toward the breakup of Iraq. It is a mistake to imagine that such a plan will lead to a reduction in chaos in Iraq; rather, on the contrary, it will lead to an increase in the butchery and a deepening of the crisis of this country, and the spreading of increased chaos, even to neighboring states."

The Sunni Association of Muslim Scholars also denounced the plan. "This is a dangerous partitioning based on sectarianism and ethnicity," said Hashim Taie, a member of the Iraqi Accordance Front, the largest Sunni party in the parliament.

Qays al-Atwani, the moderator of the popular "Talk of the Hour" television show, interviewed Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis about the Biden resolution. He concluded: "For the first time in Iraq, all political blocs, decision makers and religious authorities agree on rejecting the [Biden] resolution that contradicts the will of the Iraqi people." The Senate resolution even managed to provoke radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's political supporters to momentarily join their rivals -- all in opposition to the Biden plan.

Secular Sunni parliamentarian Mithal al-Alusi held a news conference in Baghdad to call on the Iraqi government to formally declare Mr. Biden "a persona non grata" in Iraq. As for Iraq's neighbors, The Gulf Cooperation Council and the Arab League both denounced the Biden resolution.

The uproar was unsurprising, as partition would have involved expelling Iraqis from their homes. How would a partition work, for example, in major cities like Kirkuk, which is majority Kurdish but also has a large Sunni population, and substantial Christian and Turkomen populations? The likely outcome would have been forced relocation. This could have sparked a wave of renewed sectarian violence, if not civil war."

So given all this, how do you justify keeping the same party in the White House?

I am a Libertarian. I vote for who I think will do best for my country. I want my vote to count this election. It will be for McCain.

Do you believe McCain is
that different from Bush?

He wants reform. From his record in the past I believe him. I hate big goverment. I agree with Bush on the war on terror but I hate the way goverment has grown during his two terms. I believe Obama will make the goverment even bigger and taxes will be raised.

are you afraid to take a chance on the
inexperience of Obama?

Yes. I don't know what he stands for. When Bill O'Reilly threw him hardballs on the "Surge" and "Taxes" he didn't come across as confident. Olbermann didn't press him on anything. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iNky ... AD932U7100

Most political analysts are amazed at the current poll numbers given the dissatisfaction with the current administration.

Then they underestimate the power of the Conservative Party. Conservitive Americans will go with conservitive leaders no matter what party that leader hails from.

Personally, I believe it is undying party loyalty. Am I wrong?

I can only speak for my wife and I to say your wrong. We believe only a weak minded idiot would agree with everthing their party does based on membership. We vote for the candidate that represents our beliefs the best. Party lines have nothing to do with it.

[wco81]

Well you're only going to get generalities and platitudes in a convention speech, not specifics.

You know, "we'll cut taxes, the other guy will tax and spend." Those mantras are not any different than what Bush campaigned on.

But I don't know that McCain has offered specifics elsewhere or demonstrated how his economic proposals would be different from Bush's policies.

He's talked about balancing the budget through eliminating earmarks but he won't explain how eliminating such a small part of the budget will help overcome the deficits. And certainly he's not going to talk about the earmarks that Palin lobbied for which he opposed.

McCain's economic playbook is the same one the GOP has been using for almost 30 years. The pithy slogans about cutting taxes and small govt. are going to appeal on the campaign trail but when put in practice, it's just created deficits and increased the national debt. The govt. is bigger than ever before (spending is up to $3 trillion in Bush's last budget compared to just under $2 trillion in Clinton's last year) and job growth under GOP presidencies have been tepid.

The number of jobs created under both terms of Clinton is about the same as the number created under both Reagan terms, Bush I and thus far, both terms of Bush II:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_creat ... tial_terms

So the McCain claim that his tax policies will create more jobs than Obama's tax policies has no historical basis. Of course, past performance is no predictor of future results.

[JackB1]

I'm just curious, Jack, do you ever proofread your posts for how they might sound? It continues to astound me that for all of the "open-mindedness" of the American Left, they will often be the first to tell you your thinking is wrong if you don't see things through their narrow specs...

Who the heck has time to "proofread"?

Who ever claimed the left was "open-minded"? Both sides are guilty of quickly telling you you're wrong if your view disagrees with theirs. This forum is proof positive of that. Are you saying the right is "less narrow minded" than the left?

Respond to the point at hand. Rob quoted a bunch of posts where McCain's subject was the economy, but all his comments are extremely vague with respect to what he will actually do and more specifically, what he will do to distinguish himself from Bush?

[Slumberland]

Most political analysts are amazed at the current poll numbers given the dissatisfaction with the current administration.

Then they underestimate the power of the Conservative Party. Conservitive Americans will go with conservitive leaders.

Yes. Imagine chocolate ice cream is your favorite. When you get a bad batch, you don't suddenly prefer vanilla. You look for a better brand of chocolate.

Or you go with strawberry and vote Libertarian.

[Jackdog]

Most political analysts are amazed at the current poll numbers given the dissatisfaction with the current administration.

Then they underestimate the power of the Conservative Party. Conservitive Americans will go with conservitive leaders.

Yes. Imagine chocolate ice cream is your favorite. When you get a bad batch, you don't suddenly prefer vanilla. You look for a better brand of chocolate.

Or you go with strawberry and vote Libertarian.

Nice analogy.

I went with strawberry in the last election. I just can't do that this time around.