OT: A rant on the Imus issue.

[grtwhtsk]

I guess it's my turn to bring an African-American journalist into this:

http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html

[pk500]

A local talk show host here in Syracuse did a Google or allmusic.com search for the word "ho" in rap songs, and the word "ho" appears in more than 3,000 rap songs.

Ironic, no?

And here's the URL of a site, in its words, that has created positive stories for and about natural black women since 2001:

http://www.nappystories.com/

Oh, and the hip-hop group Nappy Roots better change its name immediately.

Take care,
PK

[Teal]

A local talk show host here in Syracuse did a Google or allmusic.com search for the word "ho" in rap songs, and the word "ho" appears in more than 3,000 rap songs.

Ironic, no?

And here's the URL of a site, in its words, that has created positive stories for and about natural black women since 2001:

http://www.nappystories.com/

Oh, and the hip-hop group Nappy Roots better change its name immediately.

Take care,
PK

Halle Berry's new movie has a rather unfortunate name, timing-wise, as well, I suppose..."Nappily Ever After"...

http://movies.ign.com/articles/453/453783p1.html

[Brando70]

Okay, so until we rid the world of gangsta rap and stick Jackson and Sharpton on an island someplace, Don Imus should have a job.

Am I reading that correctly? That there's some Outrage meat counter and that we have to serve everyone in order of their numbers?

Whitlock's article is right about the problems with sexism and violence in rap music. Hell, there's been issues with sexism in popular music for decades, it's just more explicit now (like everything in our culture).

But again, how does any of this excuse Imus? This story definitely blew out of proportion, but he still said something very racist and sexist, and the incident caused a lot of folks to look at the crap he's said throughout his career. The heat got to hot and he got booted from the kitchen. Is it fair that others get away with racism and sexism? No. Does it matter in terms of Imus getting fired? Not really.

The other thing is that words don't have some absolute meaning. Language is relative because language is about power relationships. Me calling Chris Rock an n-word and Chris Rock calling me a cracker are two different things. Both words are racist, but there's a whole history of racism, oppression, and violence behind me calling him that. That doesn't apply the other direction because white people were never systematically oppressed by blacks in this country.

[Jared]

There are other examples as well of similar behavior. If this is an isolated incident...then it does seem a bit much. But it doesn't seem like this is the case.

And Sharpton and Jackson's incidents of epithets against white Jews are isolated? Yet they're the moral paragons in this case?

Take care,
PK

When did I ever say, or even imply, Sharpton and Jackson are moral paragons?

Yes, Sharpton and Jackson were hypocritical, considering things that they've said. And, yes, there are rap artists that use derogatory terms for women. That doesn't excuse Imus for what he said about the Rutgers basketball team, nor does it excuse him for the many things he's said in the past.

[pk500]

But again, how does any of this excuse Imus? This story definitely blew out of proportion, but he still said something very racist and sexist, and the incident caused a lot of folks to look at the crap he's said throughout his career. The heat got to hot and he got booted from the kitchen. Is it fair that others get away with racism and sexism? No. Does it matter in terms of Imus getting fired? Not really.

Has any Imus supporter in this thread NOT said his words were hateful and wrong? None that I've seen.

But the point is that two racial hypocrites led the drive to his firing from CBS. Moonves said he decided to can Imus after meeting with Sharpton and Jackson. That's a crock.

The point also is that there are others, Sharpton and Jackson included, who continue to work in and be embraced by the black community and many segments of other communities despite their history of racism.

The other thing is that words don't have some absolute meaning. Language is relative because language is about power relationships. Me calling Chris Rock an n-word and Chris Rock calling me a cracker are two different things. Both words are racist, but there's a whole history of racism, oppression, and violence behind me calling him that. That doesn't apply the other direction because white people were never systematically oppressed by blacks in this country.

But along the lines of Whitlock's excellent column, what about blacks calling themselves "n*gger" over and over again, which occurs? They're outraged -- and rightfully so -- when a white, Asian or Hispanic person calls them a "n*gger," yet many young African-American males call each other "n*gger" as a matter of standard daily speech?

Again, no irony there, right?

This entire Imus episode proves two things:

One, corporate advertising money rules all in American media.

Two, race relations in America are riddled with hypocrisy from all sides.

Take care,
PK

[grtwhtsk]

It was wrong, plain and simple. I also don't think that anyone is excusing Imus for what he said. I personally thought the two week suspension was enough, but wasn't surprised when CBS caved in.

[pk500]

Yes, Sharpton and Jackson were hypocritical, considering things that they've said. And, yes, there are rap artists that use derogatory terms for women. That doesn't excuse Imus for what he said about the Rutgers basketball team, nor does it excuse him for the many things he's said in the past.

Then why does the black community embrace Sharpton and Jackson and revere sexist rap artists yet deplore Imus when all have histories of sexist, racial comments or lyrics?

Wouldn't have anything to do with the skin color of Sharpton, Jackson and a majority of rap artists, would it? That's not the same reason that citizens of Washington, D.C. re-elected Marion Barry after he was convicted for smoking crack, would it? That's not the same reason why most political analysts just assume Barack Obama has the black vote locked up if he's nominated for president in 2008, is it?

Of course not.

Let's face it: Most ethnic communities stay pretty close to their own, something that has happened in this country since the Pilgrims landed at Jamestown. I doubt the Pilgrims partied much with the Indians after that first Thanksgiving. Slavery exacerbated this, and it continued with segregation of whites and blacks into various ethnic ghettos during urban migration to the North after the Civil War and during huge amounts of European and Asian immigration.

Not much has changed except that different ethnic communities are held to different standards now when it comes to reaching out to other racial communities.

Take care,
PK

[Teal]

Okay, so until we rid the world of gangsta rap and stick Jackson and Sharpton on an island someplace, Don Imus should have a job.

Am I reading that correctly? That there's some Outrage meat counter and that we have to serve everyone in order of their numbers?


The other thing is that words don't have some absolute meaning. Language is relative because language is about power relationships. Me calling Chris Rock an n-word and Chris Rock calling me a cracker are two different things. Both words are racist, but there's a whole history of racism, oppression, and violence behind me calling him that. That doesn't apply the other direction because white people were never systematically oppressed by blacks in this country.

To #1, yes, unless we are perfectly comfortable with double standards and blatant hypocrisy, and I'm not.

To the second, I'm sorry, but that's the biggest load of hooey I've seen in awhile.

Which is why one of my favorite songs in recent years is 'Get Over It' by the Eagles. We are a nation of little spoiled children, noodle-kneed to the point that we can't stand on our own, and wound so tight that a little pin prick sends us spiraling out of control, acting as thought and speech police. I CAN'T STAND ROSIE O'DONNELL...BUT she can spew her stupidity all she wants. But Imus can't? Chris Rock and Chappelle can, simply BECAUSE they're black? And you're saying I owe them that?!

Uh....no way.

[Sport73]

Okay, so until we rid the world of gangsta rap and stick Jackson and Sharpton on an island someplace, Don Imus should have a job.

No, the whole point is the hypocrisy of it all. I don't want the world rid of gangsta rap, I don't want the world rid of 'shock jocks', I want the world rid of assh*les who believe their agenda, beliefs, political viewpoint, or morality is the way it needs to be for everyone.

But again, how does any of this excuse Imus? Is it fair that others get away with racism and sexism? No. Does it matter in terms of Imus getting fired? Not really.

It's not about excusing him; if you're of the mind that people who breach a certain ethical/moral standard within the public spotlight should be punished and removed from said spotlight, then enforce it equally. Shut down the rappers, shut down Sharpton & Jackson, shut down all other "shock jocks". Shut down Take2: Grand Theft Auto. If, on the other hand, you're of the mind that these comments, while dispicable, represent just another notch in a long list of offenses, then back off with your condemnation until you're ready to have your life/comments examined as well.

The other thing is that words don't have some absolute meaning. Language is relative because language is about power relationships. Me calling Chris Rock an n-word and Chris Rock calling me a cracker are two different things. Both words are racist, but there's a whole history of racism, oppression, and violence behind me calling him that. That doesn't apply the other direction because white people were never systematically oppressed by blacks in this country.

I disagree. Racism is Racism. Allowing someone to call you a 'cracker' is to perpetuate racism of all kinds. After all, it reinforces the differences between you and Chris Rock. If, on the other hand, you believe that there is a difference between language used to inflame, agitate, and insult vs. language used to communicate humor, satire, or history; then both of you should be able to use 'select' words within that context.

[Brando70]

PK, I didn't mean to imply anyone defended Imus's comments about the Rutgers team. But people are defending him, which I find hard to believe considering a lot of the things he's said over the years.

Also, there is a difference between black people using the n-word with each other and non-black (especially white people) using it. There's nothing ironic about that because context is everything. If I have a friend I call an "asshole" in humorous terms, can I turn around and call my boss the same name, even if I mean it humorously? Probably not. That's not to say using the n-word or calling people a-holes is what you should be doing, but the meaning and impact does change with the context. Just like using the word "nappy" and the phrase "nappy headed hos" are two different things.

You are right about Jackson and Sharpton being hypocrites and embraced by others despite their racism (especially Sharpton, who has had terrible incidences of exploiting racism for his own gain). But if a pair of theives tell you who robbed a bank, does that make the robber they finger any less culpable? I'm not calling Imus a crook, but regardless of how this story came, the long history of Imus's bigotry doesn't change. And I think it is bigotry that he tried to justify by passing it as humor.

[pk500]

Also, there is a difference between black people using the n-word with each other and non-black (especially white people) using it. There's nothing ironic about that because context is everything. If I have a friend I call an "asshole" in humorous terms, can I turn around and call my boss the same name, even if I mean it humorously? Probably not. That's not to say using the n-word or calling people a-holes is what you should be doing, but the meaning and impact does change with the context. Just like using the word "nappy" and the phrase "nappy headed hos" are two different things.

Not a great analogy, because "asshole" knows no ethnic or gender barriers or connotations.

"N*gger" is a distasteful word whether used by blacks among themselves or whites toward blacks. And blacks using it constantly among themselves does little to assist their desire to avoid having whites call them by that reprehensible term.

Put it this way: I don't expect my wife and her friends to call each other "c*nts" just as she doesn't expect me to call her or her friends a "c*nt."

Why is the context so much different for the black community and "n*gger?"

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

My issue with Imus stems more from seeing him as a person who exploits bigotry for his own advancement (just like Sharpton does). Imus's schtick makes bigotry the punchline, rather than the punching bag, and I do have a problem with that.

Look, I'm no wilting flower about this stuff. I like offensive humor, and I think we are too sensitive about what we can say. Everyone is entitled to say what they think. There is nothing preventing Imus or Sharpton or me from expressing any idiotic notion we have. We could even start our own group podcast

But we have no right to get paid to say those things. Imus crossed a line and enough of the public got upset that CBS felt it had to can him. There's nothing wrong with that. If people are upset with CBS for the firing, they can boycott CBS. As for Imus, he's free to seek other employment if someone else wishes to hire him. And you know, the same thing did happen to Jackson. After the Hymietown incident, Jackson's political career was pretty much over. He's still had a public career and influence, but he was unable to be a serious political candidate again.

And I'm not trying to say black people railing against white people isn't racist. Saying "I hate white people" is every bit as racist as saying "I hate black people." They are equally wrong. But they don't have the same power connotations because of the history of racism in this country. And that principle applies to language in a whole host of situations.

Anyway, if you guys disagree, you can go f*** yourselves.

I keed, I keed. I am glad we can have threads like these, even if none of us think any differently afterward.

[Jared]

Yes, Sharpton and Jackson were hypocritical, considering things that they've said. And, yes, there are rap artists that use derogatory terms for women. That doesn't excuse Imus for what he said about the Rutgers basketball team, nor does it excuse him for the many things he's said in the past.

Then why does the black community embrace Sharpton and Jackson and revere sexist rap artists yet deplore Imus when all have histories of sexist, racial comments or lyrics?

I can't say. I know that Sharpton absolutely DETESTS violent rap...he's actually called for a ban of it.

And I think it's unfair to say that "the black community" reveres sexist rap artists. 50 Cent didn't sell millions of records JUST to African-Americans. Caucasians, Asians, etc. have all bought it. I'm sure there's a large white community that loves 50 Cent, just like there's a large black community (Sharpton included) that hates his stuff.

Teal,

I understand your sentiment...but Imus has a history of racist and sexist comments. This isn't an isolated case, and this isn't general stupidity. People have the right to point this out, criticize, and even call for the firing of people that are racist and sexist.


and violent rap is popular in most communities in America (as well as Europe, Asia, etc.)

[EZSnappin]

I said my piece about Imus in the last Imus thread, but wanted to point out one thing people have missed:

Al Sharpton demanded that the Federal Communications Commission ban violent rappers from radio and television, and he launched a boycott against Universal Music Group, which he accused of "peddling racist and misogynistic black stereotypes" through rap music. Sharpton expressed special concern about white perceptions of African Americans. Rappers and their corporate supporters "make it easy for black culture to be dismissed by the majority," he said, and the large white fan base "has learned through rap images to identify black male culture with a culture of violence."

Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/PUSH Coalition signed on to the boycott, as did Princeton professor Cornel West, who issued a statement claiming that music companies and rappers made it easy for whites to "view black bodies and black souls as less moral, oversexed and less intelligent."

from the LA Times, 8/16/05 http://thaddeusrussell.typepad.com/882474741.html

That Sharpton & Jackson are hypocrites is sort of a given - they're politicians first and foremost. But just because they're hypocrites doesn't make them automatically wrong.

[fsquid]

[Chris Rock] Niggas please! [/Chris Rock]

[RobVarak]

I agree with Jared, 100%. I know that's not important in the big scheme of things, but it's unusual enough to warrant mentioning

[kevinpars]

I bet the Bush administration is loving this whole thing. Everyone is talking about Don Imus and nobody is questioning the "lost" emails.

I guess the moral of the story is that they can get Imus but Karl Rove will always skate away clean in a sulfur cloud. What a country!!

[JRod]

I bet the Bush administration is loving this whole thing. Everyone is talking about Don Imus and nobody is questioning the "lost" emails.

I guess the moral of the story is that they can get Imus but Karl Rove will always skate away clean in a sulfur cloud. What a country!!

Yes but you have the media to blame for this as well. If the media said we are making this a one day story and that's it - Imus would have a job and the country would have moved on.

I find it funny that ABC covered it the least. I turned the ABC nightly broadcast due to CBS and NBC going out of their way to cover this and found very little on Imus. Even sending Brian William to interview the Rutgers coach. Maybe it's not funny but sad to come to the conclusion as to why ABC covered it the least. ABC had no dog in this fight.

CBS and NBC didn't cover this because of some outstanding social conscious to do the right thing. You know CBS and NBC wanted to create hype so people tuned into Imus. They know if things got worse they could cut the cord and look like the heroes.

Lastly, what bothers me the most about this country and the director of mainstream news and that they are all lemmings. One network could have said this is a story but not a 72 hour story. Instead we are focusing on Iraq, Bush whatever. But you know some producer was looking at the bottomline and ratings and said if we don't cover Imus we'll lose the ratings war for the week.

On a side note, it's hard to get real TV news these days. Network news has turned into simply summarizing whatever cable news talked about in the day. And cable news only cares about what's sensational.

[Inuyasha]

I bet the Bush administration is loving this whole thing. Everyone is talking about Don Imus and nobody is questioning the "lost" emails.

I guess the moral of the story is that they can get Imus but Karl Rove will always skate away clean in a sulfur cloud. What a country!!

Fox News is going anti-black today when discussing the whole Imus issue. Fox News : an eye for an eye.

[macsomjrr]

Man I hate posts that are 5+ sentences I'm waaaaay too ADD for that...

Gotta agree with all the Imus defenders on this issue so far. The man apologized profusely for what he said AND met with those who he had offended and those calling for his head. He didn't run, he didn't hide, he came right back and said "yes, I was wrong, I'm sorry." Personally I really don't like Imus but we live in a free country where people can say whatever they want regardless of what position they are in. If you don't like what he said don't listen to him, but I guess we won't have to choice for at least a little bit now. Maybe he'll go join Mike Savage OK he isn't THAT bad).

[JRod]

Man I hate posts that are 5+ sentences I'm waaaaay too ADD for that...

Gotta agree with all the Imus defenders on this issue so far. The man apologized profusely for what he said AND met with those who he had offended and those calling for his head. He didn't run, he didn't hide, he came right back and said "yes, I was wrong, I'm sorry." Personally I really don't like Imus but we live in a free country where people can say whatever they want regardless of what position they are in. If you don't like what he said don't listen to him, but I guess we won't have to choice for at least a little bit now. Maybe he'll go join Mike Savage OK he isn't THAT bad).

Mac...
You are a hyprocrit! You say you hate posts that are 5 sentences long yet you're post wast 6 full sentences long and once "..."!

Jared is going to place you on administrative leave for a week.

[FatPitcher]

This whole thing is goofy. How did this become a big deal? Kramer, Mel Gibson, sure, but this? Just some guy cracking jokes using terminology from the "hip-hop" culture. Would it have been better if he said, "Those women on the Rutgers team look rather rough-and-tumble!"? Of course, it's nicer never to say anything that be construed as mean or negative, but he and others have been doing it for decades without this kind of trumped-up controversy. Funny how the self-proclaimed defenders of free speech and tolerance of many viewpoints and blah blah blah all have the pitchforks out when an opportune moment arises. It's a perfect example of why I don't give anything they say much credence.

[nyisles16]

this whole thing is one big joke.. Imus deserved to get suspended, and imo, posssibly longer than what he got.. His comments were most innapropriate & he needs to think about that. Fired? No. Only thing CBS (& MSNBC) saw in their eyes was the loss of money. Pure and simple.

PS- I see that only a handfull of "big wigs" came out to defend, or show some support the I-Man. Obama "Hey let me go on the show to push my book & then wait a week after the incident to issue my distain for him" was not one of them..

The funniest was the other night on the "O'Reilly Factor". As much as I can't stand the guy, he had an interview with Al Sharpton. Bill started asking him about now after Imus had been canned, are you going to clean up music industry, especially the gansta/hip hop music.. Al's face had this "huh, what" look to him & kinda stuttered.

[Brando70]

Was going to say something, but never mind. I'm tired of talking about this.