OT: Lootings, Carjackings, and shootings in New Orleans

[RobVarak]

Ouch! I'm guessing a properly organized mayor conducting an mandatory evacuation of a large city could have used resources like these. Even assuming that they couldn't have found drivers for every bus, it's likely that they could have made good use of some of these to reduce the Superdome population at least. And these are just some school buses at one facility. What about the local transit system's assets?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 1109012015

[DivotMaker]

Thats been My main frustration. With so much to be done and with all the human misery cant these personal agendas wait???
Dress em up anyway you want but thats how I see em...

I'm with you 100% there...

[bdoughty]

That works on both sides of the aisle. I have yet to see Blueduke offer a single valid REALISTIC solution, yet he continues to attack the Mayor.

Don't cities plan for for emergency evacuations before disasters become a reality? You know they do. What was predicted would happen if the storm hit happened. What was the mayor's "plan"? Evidently it was to sit back and let the Feds figure it out. he knew after the voluntary evac alot of people with no transportation was left behind. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who those people were---the poor and the elderly. He could have at least make an attempt to get them out. There were plenty of buses around to do just that. and it's real simple, BD----you open the door, sit in the driver's seat, and drive to the low income neighborhoods. I'm sure he knows where they are as they always seem to find transportation for them on election day so a shortage of drivers wouldn't be a problem either. He did nothing. What would Mayor BD do if you knew a hurricane was predicted to likely decimate your city if it hit and you knew the poor and the elderly didn't have a way out? I would hope you would at least try to get them out before it hit. I know I would.

The mayor choked, the governor choked even more, and Bush choked most of all (and he and the republicans will pay a huge price as they well should. Now if this flies over your head, it just does.

Something to ponder.......given HSA is a total joke and we have our hands full with the Katrina aftermath, would a terrorist hell bent on laying a severe blow to America think now is the perfect time to do it?

I am sure the Mayor made some mistakes but what is to say he did not "try?" You saw some busses that were not used so apparently that means no effort was taken on his part. To think he could fully evacuate all the people in the limited time alloted with the resources available is not valid IMO. Your only backup is the one kid who stole a bus and got a few people to the Astrodome.

I have no idea why you keep brining the election into this? As PK mentioned earlier many off the ppolling places are withing walking distance for some and a % of the people stranded did not vote to begin with. There is a big difference between getting a person a few block aways to vote and getting them out of the city during a hurricane eviction.

Mayor BD is glad he is not a Mayor.

[bdoughty]

Ouch! I'm guessing a properly organized mayor conducting an mandatory evacuation of a large city could have used resources like these. Even assuming that they couldn't have found drivers for every bus, it's likely that they could have made good use of some of these to reduce the Superdome population at least. And these are just some school buses at one facility. What about the local transit system's assets?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 1109012015

LOL do you even read any replies in this thread outside of what Jared posts?

[RobVarak]

Ouch! I'm guessing a properly organized mayor conducting an mandatory evacuation of a large city could have used resources like these. Even assuming that they couldn't have found drivers for every bus, it's likely that they could have made good use of some of these to reduce the Superdome population at least. And these are just some school buses at one facility. What about the local transit system's assets?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 1109012015

LOL do you even read any replies in this thread outside of what Jared posts?

No.

In my own defense, I didn't get back into town until this thread was like 7 pages long and 90% of everyone else's posts are name-calling anyway.

Actually, BD I just saw your post now. Look at the timing of our two posts.

I saw that GMA quote, but he is obviously talking about the interim time b/w the hurricane striking and the levy breaking. Everyone, including the locals, thought that the passage of the storm was uneventful as far as the levies were concerned. That's how I read it anyway.

[bdoughty]

No.

In my own defense, I didn't get back into town until this thread was like 7 pages long and 90% of everyone else's posts are name-calling anyway.

Yes because you are above such utter nonsense of namecalling right?

Evidence that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum may never have even ordered the evac without prompting from the Feds.

Can't say I am shocked you mention the busses though. Easy to point out the obvious, yet not give a single shred of reasoning as to how in the limited time available they would be able to make use of these.

* If you are planning on mentioning the one kid who stole a bus, and took people to the Astrodome. It has already been mentioned (call it a time saving tip).

You and Blue would make a good team, you share much in common.

[wco81]

4. Jared, you're a smart, smart man. And despite our repeated clashses I don't think that you would place undue blame on Bush or anyone else unless you believed that's where it belonged. But you can't possibly believe that an enormous component of this criticism isn't driven by lingering general anti-Bush sentiment, especially from the Fahrenheit kool aid consuming crowd. Even the rational left is desperately hungry to nail Bush since the election, and the less rational left is just thrilled to have a new dress in which to doll up its anti-Iraq criticism. Hell, now they can bash Bush without having to face the reality of their defeatism

You haven't seen Democratic leaders say much about this. You've seen the Black Caucus say a few things but at this point, bashing Bush doesn't get them anywhere. They're not going to run against Bush ever again. In fact, they're playing it safe, content to watch Bush's poll numbers go down and passively hope that they will do well in the midterm elections.

A lot of the criticisms have been coming from conservatives. There's an ambivalence among some conservatives at least about whether the federal govt. should even be involved in disaster relief. They think it's a state and local responsibility and the less the feds spend on it, the better. But some conservatives like Andrew Sullivan (you'll see plenty of criticism of the relief efforts there from him and some of his readers) are saying they are for civil defense, which is one of the functions which can't be delegated to private enterprise.

The other criticism is coming from the media. Reporters on the scene have posed pointed question at federal officials because they witnessed the ineffectual response, the misery and in some cases, a refusal to help. One guy from MSNBC said that he saw ambulances outside the city running with air conditioners going but the drivers refusing to go into the city because of fears for their safety.

Bush is with us for the next 3 years. All you can do is hope that they tighten the ship.

[Jared]

1. First, could you please push me in the direction of the quote where W said that nobody anticipated the levies failing? I've just reviewed both of his lengthier statements to the public (the Rose garden and his post-tour news conference) and a few of his shorter statements and I dont' see anything to that effect. I'm not saying it's not there, as I have heard Cherthoff say similar things.

Someone else posted it...it was in an interview with Diane Sawyer. Chertoff was also recently heard saying something like no one could have expected a hurricane and a flood. When members of the federal gov't are saying things like this (heads of the nation and DHS), then it's clear how totally out of touch they are with the situation.

2. There's a huge and obvious difference between the troops which were unavailable for duty because they were already deployed overseas and those who were not deployed because they were left on standby by the governor. There's no reason that one can't be troubled by one but not the other.

One can be troubled by both. And we don't know why the other 3,000 were on standby. Again, I do think it would have been better if all of them were called up. But considering the magnitude of the problem, I'm fairly sure that just having those troops would have solved the problem. Notice that once a swath of new troops started coming in on convoys on Friday, the problems in N.O. were pretty much squashed (food arrived, water arrived, security problems diminished). The huge, giant question is why weren't they there before.

3. I find it ironic that for the entirety of its short history FEMA was viewed by the ACLU set and tin-hat wearing public as a uber-powerful shadow-agency with neafarious purpose. Now it's being criticized because people realize there were very real and necessary legal limits to its power. FEMA typically waits for a request for help from the state government, and as you noted, as a federal agency is limited in its ability to direct national guardsmen etc.

I know nothing about the shadow agency stuff. I know that the governor requested a lot from FEMA on Sunday (before the hurricane hit).

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Rel ... equest.pdf

And for those that are saying that there was no plan (blue), this document shows that the State Emergency Plan was put into effect on the 26th (Friday, two days before the hurricane hit). And look at these passages in the Disaster Relief Request:

I have determined that this incident will be of such severity and magnitude that effective response will be beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that supplementary Federal assistance will be necessary.

.....

I request direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

Again, these are requests TO FEMA on Sunday BEFORE the hurricane even hit. She's obviously asking for Federal help. And the federal help came too late.

4. Jared, you're a smart, smart man. And despite our repeated clashses I don't think that you would place undue blame on Bush or anyone else unless you believed that's where it belonged. But you can't possibly believe that an enormous component of this criticism isn't driven by lingering general anti-Bush sentiment, especially from the Fahrenheit kool aid consuming crowd. Even the rational left is desperately hungry to nail Bush since the election, and the less rational left is just thrilled to have a new dress in which to doll up its anti-Iraq criticism. Hell, now they can bash Bush without having to face the reality of their defeatism

I'm sure that there are people that are looking at this irrationally from both sides (people eager to nail Bush on the left, people eager to nail anyone but Bush on the right). But I don't think that this has driven an "enormous component of this criticism", because soooo many people on the right have harshly criticized the FEDERAL response.

And for me (and I'm sure this isn't true for others), this is an APOLITICAL issue. Again, I don't care who the hell is leading FEMA/the feds at the time...this is a major, major screwup that has cost hundreds of lives.

And as an aside, I can understand why people would look to attack the state and local gov'ts down there....Louisiana and New Orleans have historically been known for having some of the most poorly mismanaged local government in the nation. But it really seems like most/nearly all of the blame in this lies squarely on the shoulders of FEMA and the federal gov't.

[RobVarak]

No.

In my own defense, I didn't get back into town until this thread was like 7 pages long and 90% of everyone else's posts are name-calling anyway.

Yes because you are above such utter nonsense of namecalling right?

Evidence that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum may never have even ordered the evac without prompting from the Feds.

Can't say I am shocked you mention the busses though. Easy to point out the obvious, yet not give a single shred of reasoning as to how in the limited time available they would be able to make use of these.

* If you are planning on mentioning the one kid who stole a bus, and took people to the Astrodome. It has already been mentioned (call it a time saving tip).

You and Blue would make a good team, you share much in common.

I meant name calling between others in the thread. You know, personal attacks and innuendo. I'm sure you're familiar with that sort of thing. Public figures are fair game for name calling, and I didn't say that some of my posts weren't among the 90%

"Limited time" to use the buses? Well that's obviously a subjective and indistinct phrase. The feds wanted a mandatory evacuation to begin Friday night, which I am quite confident would be enough time to begin utilizing some municipal resources like these busses. As for a single shred of reasoning, I thought it was within the deductive power of the reader to figure out that maybe the city should have put people on the bus in order to get them out of town. And Just because it's easy to point out the obvious doesn't mean that we shouldn't.

[RobVarak]

And as an aside, I can understand why people would look to attack the state and local gov'ts down there....Louisiana and New Orleans have historically been known for having some of the most poorly mismanaged local government in the nation. But it really seems like most/nearly all of the blame in this lies squarely on the shoulders of FEMA and the federal gov't.

Please don't think that my personal conclusion to the contrary (ie, that the locals and state are more responsible than the feds) is completely exclupating the Feds or Bush. They are certainly guilty of mishandling some things and communicating atrociously as well. I'm talking about comparative blame here, not sole blame.

[pk500]

If the idecision to fix those levees WAS MADE, what services or other budgetary items would be axed to pay for the levee improvements?

I think we've spent enough money in Iraq in the last two years to make the levees strong enough to withstand a Level 50 hurricane.

Take care,
PK

[DivotMaker]

If the idecision to fix those levees WAS MADE, what services or other budgetary items would be axed to pay for the levee improvements?

I think we've spent enough money in Iraq in the last two years to make the levees strong enough to withstand a Level 50 hurricane.

Take care,
PK

Paul,

I usually don't respond to many of your statements out of respect for your opinions quite frankly because we don't agree on a number of things. However, your statement above is really a VERY poor and ill-intentioned analogy. The funding to upgrade the levees would not have anything to do with the funding for the war in Iraq or Afghanistan. I am not an expert on these matters but you would have a hard time convincing me that funding for a levee improvement would not come from Federal, State, and Local taxes. Tieing this issue to the war in Iraq is simply very wrong IMHO.

[Jared]

Actually, there's evidence that there were budgetary pressures from the war in Iraq that led to cuts in funding for the levees.

Link

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

....

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said."

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late.

One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday.

[pk500]

Tieing this issue to the war in Iraq is simply very wrong IMHO.

Why? Makes me unpatriotic? Less of an American?

We're spending billions of Federal tax dollars to fight this war. When I pay taxes, I don't have box on my 1040 form that says, "I want my tax money to go to this project and not to that project."

Taxpayer dollars fund wars and infrastructure improvements, and I think it's about high time that government on both sides of the aisle start taking care of problems here in the U.S. instead of nation-building halfway around the world, especially trying to shove a constitutional government down the throat of a tribal society.

I'm against big government and government spending. But infrastructure and national defense are one of the basic responsibilities of government. I don't see how the war in Iraq has aided our national defense or infrastructure one bit, but last week's events make it very clear that this country is not prepared for disasters, natural or from enemies.

So the question I pose is this: Why are we spending billions of taxpayer dollars -- regardless of what fund or GAO balance sheet they come from; they all come from our pockets -- to fight a war in Iraq when it's clear that infrastructure and planning are needed at home? If government is going to spend money, then why doesn't it put a little more focus on the home front?

Sorry that offends your Lee Greenwood sensibilities, but the question begs to be asked.

Take care,
PK

[Inuyasha]

People forget Bush picked Iraq to invade. Iraq was never invovled with 911. It is all of Bush's fault for getting us into Iraq.
He picked that fight, when we should have maybe been concentrating on capturing bin laden.

[DivotMaker]

Actually, there's evidence that there were budgetary pressures from the war in Iraq that led to cuts in funding for the levees.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

[DivotMaker]

Why? Makes me unpatriotic? Less of an American?

No need for the unnecessary dramatics. Prior to this storm, there were a handful (in relative terms) of people who were working the levee issue. Now it has become the rallying cry of the Monday morning quarterback. You and I don't see eye to eye on a number of things, but for people to sit here and criticize a lack of action AFTER THE FACT is very convenient. Lets put your money where your mouth is, shall we? Would you still feel this way if the levees had NOT broken and NO had escaped with levees intact? NO survived a Category 4 storm in 1969 (Camille). You don't think for one minute that surviving that storm was going through a number of people's minds before this one hit? Two can play that game.

Sorry that offends your Lee Greenwood sensibilities, but the question begs to be asked.

Take care,
PK

There is really no need for the sarcasm. But I will keep that in mind for the future.....

[bdoughty]

but for people to sit here and criticize a lack of action AFTER THE FACT is very convenient.

Convenient? After the fact? Would you prefer after the 2008 elections? Last I checked most of us are not goverment employees and privy to the goings on BEFORE THE FACT. Some of us (GSAP) expected more for our tax dollars then what we are seeing in NO. How dare we voice our opinion and utilize that whole "freedom of speech thingymobobber."

No need for the unnecessary dramatics. --------------- There is really no need for the sarcasm.

You mean like the following from your posts?

-------

TYPING IN ALL CAPS.
Monday Morning Quarterback
Nope, nice try....
Laughable.
A few more
Utterly ridiculous
Um, no. Feel free to buy into all of that garbage you wish though....

-----

To name a few. I hope you purchased alot of insurance for that glass house. It is one thing to be a sarcastic a****** (I have no problem admitting to it and DB is the posterboy with PK as his running mate) it's another to fail in seeing that you are in the same damn boat and pointing your finger around as if your s*** does not stink.

[Jayhawker]

It is one thing to be a sarcastic a****** (I have no problem admitting to it and DB is the posterboy with PK as his running mate) it's another to fail in seeing that you are in the same damn boat and pointing your finger around as if your s*** does not stink.

That's why they call him the DivotMaker.

[pk500]

No need for the unnecessary dramatics. Prior to this storm, there were a handful (in relative terms) of people who were working the levee issue. Now it has become the rallying cry of the Monday morning quarterback. You and I don't see eye to eye on a number of things, but for people to sit here and criticize a lack of action AFTER THE FACT is very convenient. Lets put your money where your mouth is, shall we? Would you still feel this way if the levees had NOT broken and NO had escaped with levees intact? NO survived a Category 4 storm in 1969 (Camille). You don't think for one minute that surviving that storm was going through a number of people's minds before this one hit? Two can play that game.

Yes, I would still feel this way about the levees. Because if they had not broken, this would have been yet another wake-up call that they should be reinforced. Another near-miss.

Sadly, this wasn't a near-miss. And since the vulnerability of the levees was clearly illustrated by both a major exposee in the Times-Picayune and a major story in National Geographic -- surely both depicted as "liberal rags" in the eyes of neo-cons -- in the last five years, the Bush-Chertoff excuse, "We had no way of forecasting this type of disaster" doesn't wash one bit.

As for Monday morning quarterbacking, why not? Should this Administration be let off the hook for its lousy planning and even worse allocation of American tax dollars? Is the the only positive action that which takes place before the fact?

As a former football player, I'm sure you watched film and said: "Man, that was wrong. We need to do it differently next game." Hopefully the White House has watched CNN, Fox and MSNBC this week and realized they have to do it differently during the next disaster.

Finally, Katrina also hopefully has cured the right wing of the hubris of thinking it can take care of its country while destroying, occupying and rebuilding another. Clearly, it can't. This week has proven that, and AMERICANS are the ones getting the major shaft.

Take care,
PK

[Jared]

Just a gentle reminder to calm down the attacks on each other. This isn't going out to anyone in specific, and I'm not saying that anyone has done anything wrong....but I'd rather send out a kind warning/reminder before things escalate.

[laurenskye]

I can't understand why everyone keeps saying "well, 2/3 are below the poverty level" like that's a reason or an excuse to murder and rape. I've been poor, maybe not this poor, but I know I just don't have it in me to murder or rape. I might steal some stuff but that's it.

[TRI]

No need for the unnecessary dramatics. Prior to this storm, there were a handful (in relative terms) of people who were working the levee issue. Now it has become the rallying cry of the Monday morning quarterback. You and I don't see eye to eye on a number of things, but for people to sit here and criticize a lack of action AFTER THE FACT is very convenient. Lets put your money where your mouth is, shall we? Would you still feel this way if the levees had NOT broken and NO had escaped with levees intact? NO survived a Category 4 storm in 1969 (Camille). You don't think for one minute that surviving that storm was going through a number of people's minds before this one hit? Two can play that game.

Yes, I would still feel this way about the levees. Because if they had not broken, this would have been yet another wake-up call that they should be reinforced. Another near-miss.

Sadly, this wasn't a near-miss. And since the vulnerability of the levees was clearly illustrated by both a major exposee in the Times-Picayune and a major story in National Geographic -- surely both depicted as "liberal rags" in the eyes of neo-cons -- in the last five years, the Bush-Chertoff excuse, "We had no way of forecasting this type of disaster" doesn't wash one bit.

As for Monday morning quarterbacking, why not? Should this Administration be let off the hook for its lousy planning and even worse allocation of American tax dollars? Is the the only positive action that which takes place before the fact?

As a former football player, I'm sure you watched film and said: "Man, that was wrong. We need to do it differently next game." Hopefully the White House has watched CNN, Fox and MSNBC this week and realized they have to do it differently during the next disaster.

Finally, Katrina also hopefully has cured the right wing of the hubris of thinking it can take care of its country while destroying, occupying and rebuilding another. Clearly, it can't. This week has proven that, and AMERICANS are the ones getting the major shaft.

Take care,
PK

PK500

You blame the Bush administration for the disaster but you excuse the inept local officials who srewed up big time. Disaster relief is a local issue first and a federal issue last. The people on the levee board new about this problem and they sat on their hands! Bush cannot stop a Cat 5 hurricane or steer it to another location. He simply does not have that power. You want Bush to be God but he is NOT. There have been CAT 4 hurricanes that have damaged coastal areas before like Hurricane Andrew in 1992 but not nearly as severe as Katrina . I went through Hurricane Andrew in 1992 and some locations near where I live were flattened and ravaged, but the damage was not nearly as wide spread as the damage from Hurricane Katrina. The region damaged by Katrina is about the size of Kansas and is unprecedented. There has NEVER been such severe damage over a VERY large area. When you suffer this much damage with limited relief supplies and resouces, recovery and disaster relief can take longer than most people would like. It is NOT just New Orleans that was ravaged by this storm. In coastal Mississippi there was a 30 foot storm surge in some areas! A 30 foot storm surge is extremely devastating.

[TRI]

I heard a rumor that the levee was damaged by an empty grain barge in Lake Pontchartrain. Remember that the levee was breached after the worst of the storm.

[XXXIV]

I can't understand why everyone keeps saying "well, 2/3 are below the poverty level" like that's a reason or an excuse to murder and rape. I've been poor, maybe not this poor, but I know I just don't have it in me to murder or rape. I might steal some stuff but that's it.

Yep....but ya gotta know by now when this s*** turn to political agendas.....realism get FLUSHED!!!