OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

[XXXIV]

Polls are like dumps...Everyone takes one. .. Who is to say who has the best turds?

They say a bad analogy is a like a wet telephone.

...I gave it a shot...but Im sure you got the idea.

[matthewk]

I have a feeling the events of the last 10 days is really going to hurt McCain in the election. It's ironic because in 2005 he was one of the ones trying to cahnge things so that we didn't end up where we are today. To a lot of people, Obama's soundbite of taxing the rich is going to sound a whole lot sweeter when played right after "700 billion dollar bailout".

The financial mess really has me ticked off at ALL of our leaders in Washington. Both sides have sold us down the river years ago, and now we're all in so deep that the best option is to help those that got us here.

[FatPitcher]

Bernake says there will be a recession without the bailout. I say, big deal. Trying to avoid a recession by hook or by crook is what got us into this mess to begin with.

[greggsand]

Bernake says there will be a recession without the bailout. I say, big deal. Trying to avoid a recession by hook or by crook is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Agreed. If you look at the market as a living-breathing-thing, doesn't it need to correct itself? It has to go to where it has to go. Scary stuff.

[RobVarak]

Looks like Biden is going to put my Gaffe Theorem to the test. In the last 24 hours you had him condemn and then retract his condemnation of the attack ad about McCain's computer literacy, disagree with The One about the AIG bailout, challenge Obama to take away his shotguns, say that FDR spoke to the nation on TV in 1929(!!) and then say he was against the building of any more coal power plants in the US despite Obama's being in favor of developing clean coal energy.

Whew! Some of those are just silly (the FDR thing and guns things), but the sheer volume of wackiness is pretty amazing for a seasoned politician.

My favorite part so far is this bit of rhetorical contortionism.

Biden:

"No coal plants here in America," he said. "Build them, if they're going to build them, over there.

Biden's spokesman trying to "clarify" things:

Senator Biden’s point is that China is building coal plants with outdated technology every day, and the United States needs to lead by developing clean coal technologies

He's like Bizarro Bill Clinton when it comes to staying on message.


Edit--My mistake on the timing. His anti-coal gaffe was made last week, and is only being widely disseminated now.

[matthewk]

I was afraid this kind of mis-communication would be coming out more from McCain/Palin. With her being somewhat of a last minute decision, and the fact they were not close prior to her being chosen, I would have expected more contradicting messages from thier side.

If Palin was doing anything like Biden is, it would be headline news for days.

On a side note, I've noticed that CNN seems more in the tank for Obama every day. Last week they had a story about how Palin's glasses were Japanese and took 2 months to get, then they moved on to how her town charged rape victims for pregnancy tests (or some test, I think that was it). A lot of media outlets are openly doing their best to try and take her down. It's like watching a drunk taking swings at Kimbo Slice because they think they can "take him".

[Slumberland]

I was afraid this kind of mis-communication would be coming out more from McCain/Palin. With her being somewhat of a last minute decision, and the fact they were not close prior to her being chosen, I would have expected more contradicting messages from thier side.

Maybe if they let her give a press conference.

[XXXIV]

I was afraid this kind of mis-communication would be coming out more from McCain/Palin. With her being somewhat of a last minute decision, and the fact they were not close prior to her being chosen, I would have expected more contradicting messages from thier side.

Maybe if they let her give a press conference.

That vp debate should be entertaining.

[pk500]

I was afraid this kind of mis-communication would be coming out more from McCain/Palin. With her being somewhat of a last minute decision, and the fact they were not close prior to her being chosen, I would have expected more contradicting messages from thier side.

Has she spoken publicly other than a stump speech or a carefully orchestrated reach-around with Charlie Gibson? Kind of hard to stray from the message when you never open your trap outside of a completely controlled environment.

An example of the ridiculous media access limitations the McCain/Palin campaign is applying to Palin:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13791.html

Twenty-nine seconds of pool media time with Palin and world leaders at the UN? Wow, that's impressive.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

I was afraid this kind of mis-communication would be coming out more from McCain/Palin. With her being somewhat of a last minute decision, and the fact they were not close prior to her being chosen, I would have expected more contradicting messages from thier side.

Maybe if they let her give a press conference.

That vp debate should be entertaining.

I think Palin will do well, for two reasons.

One, Palin will have read all of her Cliff Notes by then and be well-schooled enough to at least appear she has a decent grasp of the issues without cue cards.

Two, Biden is in a no-win situation. If he attacks Palin without class or mercy, he'll come off as an old-school, sexist career Washington politician. That's exactly what he is, but Obama wants us to believe that he's an agent of experience and change, and Attack Dog Joe won't play into the myth very well.

Take care,
PK

[RobVarak]

Has she spoken publicly other than a stump speech or a carefully orchestrated reach-around with Charlie Gibson? Kind of hard to stray from the message when you never open your trap outside of a completely controlled environment.

She's done several town hall meetings which were open forums (although obviously mostly with McCain supporters in attendance). She did another one-on-one with Fox shortly after the Gibson interview.

And if I were her I'd tell the media that they could have all the access they want right after they balance the "investigative journalism" they applied to her to Obama or Biden.

I've seen more stories (with infinitely more attack-mindedness) about debunked accusations, innuendo and her fashion choices than I have about Obama's connections in Chicago and Illinois politics, his CAC connections, his relationship with Fannie or Freddie, or Biden's credit cards cronies. All of which have substantially more relevence than much of the crap they've been dredging up in Alaska.

You have CNN running totally irresponsible pieces like the rape kits story (admitting mid-story that there was no evidence Palin knew of the main allegation in the story but hey they have another disgruntled Alaskan so let's run it! How did this woman have a 85% approval rating with all these enemies up there? ) ) and then crying because they can't get more access to the candidate. Why throw meat to a cage full of obviously disrespectful and antagonistic wolves?

That SNL skit, like all good satire, was funny in large part because of its accuracy. They were correct when they called the media out for tanking for Obama in the Hillary contest, and they're right again.

[XXXIV]

How did this woman have a 85% approval rating with all these enemies up there?

Thats a good question.

[RobVarak]

How did this woman have a 85% approval rating with all these enemies up there?

Thats a good question.

It's rhetorical, dude. The media have given a national soapbox to every disgruntled Alaskan, former poltical rival and wackjob with an ax to grind.

Almost ever one of these hit jobs arises out of a former political rivalry, the bitterness of someone she fired or demoted or someone with a personal beef with her. And yet in almost all of these stories the principal source is treated with kids gloves and in many cases even given a credibility injection (the Seattle newspaper piece from a while back comes to mind).

That's how you turn a widely-admired politician into an unpopular fascist, reality be damned.

The media has a duty to look into her background, but abrogates that duty when it sensationalizes and legitimizes innuendo or treats stories with dubious credibility or probative value as being important or informative. As I said, this is particularly prejudicial given the utter lack of even the most rudimentary investigation of the other candidates' backgrounds.

Some insight into the Palin smear jobs. 91(!) rumors debunked, many of which have appeared in the national media without correction or retraction.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting ... umor-mill/

[Teal]

Biden's continuous stream of 'gaffes' sure hasn't hurt the conspiracy theory of a 'bait and switch' in October:


http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2008/09/14 ... y-clinton/

I don't buy it for a minute, but it sure couldn't hurt any more than Biden is right now. I don't think Obama can do it at this late stage, anyway, without some pretty serious fallout concerning his decision-making abilities. Of course, that may be a foregone conclusion while ol' Joe keeps talking...

[XXXIV]

How did this woman have a 85% approval rating with all these enemies up there?

Thats a good question.

It's rhetorical, dude. The media have given a national soapbox to every disgruntled Alaskan, former poltical rival and wackjob with an ax to grind.

Almost ever one of these hit jobs arises out of a former political rivalry, the bitterness of someone she fired or demoted or someone with a personal beef with her. And yet in almost all of these stories the principal source is treated with kids gloves and in many cases even given a credibility injection (the Seattle newspaper piece from a while back comes to mind).

That's how you turn a widely-admired politician into an unpopular fascist, reality be damned.

The media has a duty to look into her background, but abrogates that duty when it sensationalizes and legitimizes innuendo or treats stories with dubious credibility or probative value as being important or informative. As I said, this is particularly prejudicial given the utter lack of even the most rudimentary investigation of the other candidates' backgrounds.

I understood. I was agreeing with you....Though I do think it would be a good question for some of the rabid dogs to answer.

I like the elaboration. Well done.

[wco81]

Bernake says there will be a recession without the bailout. I say, big deal. Trying to avoid a recession by hook or by crook is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Agreed. If you look at the market as a living-breathing-thing, doesn't it need to correct itself? It has to go to where it has to go. Scary stuff.

Just a recession?

[Teal]

Bernake says there will be a recession without the bailout. I say, big deal. Trying to avoid a recession by hook or by crook is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Agreed. If you look at the market as a living-breathing-thing, doesn't it need to correct itself? It has to go to where it has to go. Scary stuff.

Just a recession?

Why? Are you hoping for more?

[RobVarak]

I don't buy it for a minute, but it sure couldn't hurt any more than Biden is right now.

That's just it. As my Gaffe Theorem suggests, Biden's stream of wackiness is far less damaging than you would expect because people know he's a crazy blowhard. Here's CNN's top stories:

CNNMoney: Stocks tumble at the close
CNNMoney: Debate over bailout plan fires up
Conservatives: 'Take a breath' before bailout
Ron Paul: Don't bail out Wall Street
Ticker: Poll shows bad news for Republicans
Fact Check: Is 'victory' in Iraq really in sight?
Cafferty: Palin at U.N. as Clinton hosts Farm Day
Ahmadinejad: I'd meet with McCain, Obama 34 min
Finland school shooter released a day earlier
Chrysler plans electric vehicle in 2010
Evangelist says 'puberty' is age of consent
Atom smasher's reboot delayed until spring
Denzel Washington: Our children in crisis
Tot's mom lied to ex-fiance about paternity
Dog owner gets 15 years for fatal mauling
Polar bears starving, becoming cannibals
Palin incest spoof on SNL draws fire
Spears' breastfeeding pic being peddled

ABC's

CNNMoney: Stocks tumble at the close
CNNMoney: Debate over bailout plan fires up
Conservatives: 'Take a breath' before bailout
Ron Paul: Don't bail out Wall Street
Ticker: Poll shows bad news for Republicans
Fact Check: Is 'victory' in Iraq really in sight?
Cafferty: Palin at U.N. as Clinton hosts Farm Day
Ahmadinejad: I'd meet with McCain, Obama 34 min
Finland school shooter released a day earlier
Chrysler plans electric vehicle in 2010
Evangelist says 'puberty' is age of consent
Atom smasher's reboot delayed until spring
Denzel Washington: Our children in crisis
Tot's mom lied to ex-fiance about paternity
Dog owner gets 15 years for fatal mauling
Polar bears starving, becoming cannibals
Palin incest spoof on SNL draws fire
Spears' breastfeeding pic being peddled

Hard to see how it's damaging Obama when nobody's reporting on it.

OTOH, if Palin slipped and says that she had pancakes for breakfast when she had waffles it'll be evidence of her lack of fitness and a "disaster" for McCain. LOL

[RobVarak]

Bernake says there will be a recession without the bailout. I say, big deal. Trying to avoid a recession by hook or by crook is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Agreed. If you look at the market as a living-breathing-thing, doesn't it need to correct itself? It has to go to where it has to go. Scary stuff.

Just a recession?

A lot of very smart businessmen and economists from across the academic and political spectrums are saying that it was a full-on economic apocalypse staring us in the face. Once the commercial paper firms started to seize up, it was a very near thing.

I saw one estimate that an economic seizure resulting frmo a lock-up of the credit markets would cost at least $30 trillion!! I don't know how they could project such a number, but the idea is that even the $1 Trillion bailout would be a premium investment given the alternative.

It seems that the Senate and many in the public are skeptical of those claims, though. That may be legitimate cautiousness; Or it could be fatal dawdling. I'd hate to risk it just so that we can be sure of slapping CEO's on the wrist.

[Jackdog]

I don't buy it for a minute, but it sure couldn't hurt any more than Biden is right now.

That's just it. As my Gaffe Theorem suggests, Biden's stream of wackiness is far less damaging than you would expect because people know he's a crazy blowhard. Here's CNN's top stories:

CNNMoney: Stocks tumble at the close
CNNMoney: Debate over bailout plan fires up
Conservatives: 'Take a breath' before bailout
Ron Paul: Don't bail out Wall Street
Ticker: Poll shows bad news for Republicans
Fact Check: Is 'victory' in Iraq really in sight?
Cafferty: Palin at U.N. as Clinton hosts Farm Day
Ahmadinejad: I'd meet with McCain, Obama 34 min
Finland school shooter released a day earlier
Chrysler plans electric vehicle in 2010
Evangelist says 'puberty' is age of consent
Atom smasher's reboot delayed until spring
Denzel Washington: Our children in crisis
Tot's mom lied to ex-fiance about paternity
Dog owner gets 15 years for fatal mauling
Polar bears starving, becoming cannibals
Palin incest spoof on SNL draws fire
Spears' breastfeeding pic being peddled

ABC's

CNNMoney: Stocks tumble at the close
CNNMoney: Debate over bailout plan fires up
Conservatives: 'Take a breath' before bailout
Ron Paul: Don't bail out Wall Street
Ticker: Poll shows bad news for Republicans
Fact Check: Is 'victory' in Iraq really in sight?
Cafferty: Palin at U.N. as Clinton hosts Farm Day
Ahmadinejad: I'd meet with McCain, Obama 34 min
Finland school shooter released a day earlier
Chrysler plans electric vehicle in 2010
Evangelist says 'puberty' is age of consent
Atom smasher's reboot delayed until spring
Denzel Washington: Our children in crisis
Tot's mom lied to ex-fiance about paternity
Dog owner gets 15 years for fatal mauling
Polar bears starving, becoming cannibals
Palin incest spoof on SNL draws fire
Spears' breastfeeding pic being peddled

Hard to see how it's damaging Obama when nobody's reporting on it.



OTOH, if Palin slipped and says that she had pancakes for breakfast when she had waffles it'll be evidence of her lack of fitness and a "disaster" for McCain. LOL

Sad but so true. On a side note. Brett Hume ran down Biden's blunders one by one about 1/2 an hour ago. They report,we decide.

[FatPitcher]

Agreed. If you look at the market as a living-breathing-thing, doesn't it need to correct itself? It has to go to where it has to go. Scary stuff.

Just a recession?

A lot of very smart businessmen and economists from across the academic and political spectrums are saying that it was a full-on economic apocalypse staring us in the face. Once the commercial paper firms started to seize up, it was a very near thing.

I saw one estimate that an economic seizure resulting frmo a lock-up of the credit markets would cost at least $30 trillion!! I don't know how they could project such a number, but the idea is that even the $1 Trillion bailout would be a premium investment given the alternative.

It seems that the Senate and many in the public are skeptical of those claims, though. That may be legitimate cautiousness; Or it could be fatal dawdling. I'd hate to risk it just so that we can be sure of slapping CEO's on the wrist.

In Congress, the Republican position seems to be, "Hold on, that's a lot of money to be spending," and the Democratic position seems to be, "Hold on, let's add free moneys for everyone!"

[RobVarak]

In Congress, the Republican position seems to be, "Hold on, that's a lot of money to be spending," and the Democratic position seems to be, "Hold on, let's add free moneys for everyone!"

Well they could be equally fatal, regardless of the merits of either position.

And that's also not strictly accurate. Much of the Democratic questioning that I saw was about making sure there was enough schadenfreude from punishing the CEO's and the GOP seems much more concerned about who can make the cleverest references to communism. Neither is a particularly productive use of time.

[FatPitcher]

In Congress, the Republican position seems to be, "Hold on, that's a lot of money to be spending," and the Democratic position seems to be, "Hold on, let's add free moneys for everyone!"

Well they could be equally fatal, regardless of the merits of either position.

So if I understand it correctly, the government essentially wants not only to buy high-risk debt but to overpay for it, thus driving up the perceived value of that debt and making that kind of debt look better on companies' balance sheets. And then those companies will no longer be scared shitless of lending money.

Seems like it could work, but it also seems like the value of high-risk debt (and debt in general) could easily collapse back to where it is now.

[FatPitcher]

And that's also not strictly accurate. Much of the Democratic questioning that I saw was about making sure there was enough schadenfreude from punishing the CEO's and the GOP seems much more concerned about who can make the cleverest references to communism. Neither is a particularly productive use of time.

Congress will fold, as always. When push comes to shove, none of them--or more accurately, neither party controlling them--is willing to go out on a limb and risk being the one who f***ed up the world's economy, especially right before an election. We'll also get a bunch of meaningless crap added on to Paulson's plan so that Congress can preen their feathers and say how tough they are.

[Jared]

Some insight into the Palin smear jobs. 91(!) rumors debunked, many of which have appeared in the national media without correction or retraction.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting ... umor-mill/

Did you even read the 91 "rumors"? #1 was a gaffe by Biden #2-6 are true (and the list even says so), 8-9 don't have supporting links (and I doubt have appeared in the national media), etc. It's not even worth going through the rest of the list.

As for her town meetings, she hasn't taken any questions, and she's had one interview with Gibson, and one with Hannity. Matt, the Palin stories you mentioned were about how there's been an increase in demand in Palin's glasses due to her popularity (positive story) and the rape kit story is true.

The Republican part strategy with Palin (and actually, their whole campaign) seems to be the stereotypical Italian/Mexican soccer player strategy (or, for you MLS fans, Carlos Ruiz). Play dirty all game long, and then if their fouled once (phantom foul or not), go down like they've been shot and whine to the ref.