OT: NFL 2006 Season Discussion

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:21 pm

bdunn13 wrote:Brando,

When is the last time you saw the Falcons play?

I watched all of the season opener against the Panthers, where he looked uneven (great at times, terrible at times), and saw a some of the Tampa Bay game and Arizona game (flipping back and forth on Sunday Ticket). His completion % in those games was good, but he still makes a lot of bad throws. And trust me, as a Bears fan, I have plenty of experience watching bad passing

I'm not attempting to portray myself as a Vick expert. But I usually catch a few Falcons games a year. To me, he doesn't look much better now than he did the last couple of seasons. The athletic QBs that go on to be great QBs don't do it with their legs. Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:35 pm

I saw some of the Atlanta-New Orleans game.

Maybe the fact that their passing game doesn't look like WCO is the problem, given that Knapp is still the OC.

Interesting that they regressed a lot in red zone efficiency because in 2005, they were one of the best:

Knapp's influence on the offense also saw some serious gains from 2004 in such areas as Red Zone efficiency, third down conversions, total net yards, total points, average yards per game, passing yards, passing touchdowns, fewest sacks allowed, interceptions, and time of possession. Atlanta drove the ball to the opponents 20-yard line 54 times in 2005 and scored a touchdown on 31 occasions or 57.4% of their chances to rank 10th in the NFL. The offense added 19 successful field goals on the year so they failed to score just four times when they were inside the Red Zone with Knapp's leadership. The birds were also very efficient in converting third down opportunities, finishing second in the entire League with a 42.9% success rate (94/219).

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/team/coachbio.jsp?id=1914

This year through 5 games, they're at 31% on third downs.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:50 pm

Brando70 wrote:
bdunn13 wrote:Brando,

When is the last time you saw the Falcons play?
Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.

That being said, with the exception of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton, he turned his team around in to a playoff type team, and has won more games than any of those guys. For me it's simple, when Vick plays, the Falcons win a lot more than they lose, when he misses significant time, they become a 5-11 team.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:56 pm

bkrich83 wrote:
Brando70 wrote:
bdunn13 wrote:Brando,

When is the last time you saw the Falcons play?
Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.
That being said, with the exception of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton, he turned his team around in to a playoff type team, and has won more games than any of those guys. For me it's simple, when Vick plays, the Falcons win a lot more than they lose, when he misses significant time, they become a 5-11 team.

That really blows my mind yet it's true. I still think there will be a time in his career where Vick will have to learn to stay in the pocket first and run second to make a bigger impact on his team. The same thing happened with McNair and more recently McNabb. Now McNabb might be the best quarterback in the league and definitely in the top 3. When Vick learns to be just as dangerous with his arm as he is with his feet he will be something truly special. Maybe I should say "if", we'll see though.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:00 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:
bkrich83 wrote:
Brando70 wrote: Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.
That being said, with the exception of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton, he turned his team around in to a playoff type team, and has won more games than any of those guys. For me it's simple, when Vick plays, the Falcons win a lot more than they lose, when he misses significant time, they become a 5-11 team.
That really blows my mind yet it's true. I still think there will be a time in his career where Vick will have to learn to stay in the pocket first and run second to make a bigger impact on his team. The same thing happened with McNair and more recently McNabb. Now McNabb might be the best quarterback in the league and definitely in the top 3. When Vick learns to be just as dangerous with his arm as he is with his feet he will be something truly special. Maybe I should say "if", we'll see though.

It'd help his confidence in doing so, when he does make good throws, his recievers would hold on to the ball and make some plays. He had more than a few passes that were quite catchable yesterday that his receivers either misplayed or flat out dropped.

From a pure skill standpoint, I have never seen a QB with the combination of athletic ability and arm strength, releasse before. He's truly phsyically gifted. If he can harness some of that arm strength, and get back to fundamentals, he could truly become a next level type player.

All big ifs, but there are a lot of teams out there that would kill to have a Mike Vick type athlete at QB.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:28 pm

I'm with Brando 100%, and I have long thought that the media and fan fascination with Vick is totally misplaced.

He's obviously blessed with off the charts athletic talent, but I think the jury's back on his ability to run an NFL passing offense. He just can't do it. He makes small strides in his passing now and then, but he's still mediocre.

NFL history is replete with guys with cannons for arms who were average or below average QB's. Granted, most of them couldn't also run a 3.8 40, but I don't think anyone believes that Vick can rely predominantly on his legs and remain upright for long. Even that brief burst of success he enjoyed in the first couple weeks this season was short-lived once the league adjusted to their bullshit option setup. The Falcolns tried to say that they could maintain that style by passing out of the option, but that's not even a reasonable threat given Vick's performance.

This is either going to end one of two ways for the Falcolns. Either Vick's willingness to run gets him destroyed on one of these options and it makes the decision for ATL, or they realize that a real NFL QB with an accurate arm and an ability to read a defense is a much better option and finally end the Vick era.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:46 pm

RobVarak wrote:This is either going to end one of two ways for the Falcolns. Either Vick's willingness to run gets him destroyed on one of these options and it makes the decision for ATL, or they realize that a real NFL QB with an accurate arm and an ability to read a defense is a much better option and finally end the Vick era.

Not a chance. Vick sells too many seats, too many replica jerseys and gets the Falcons on high-profile, national Sunday and Monday night games for the Atlanta brass to end the Vick era any time soon.

Take care,
PK

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:54 pm

Good point, pk. I was analyzing it from a football perspective. As a Bears fan, I should certainly know better than to think that that's what drives a team's decision making process

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:08 pm

bkrich83 wrote:
Brando70 wrote:
bdunn13 wrote:Brando,

When is the last time you saw the Falcons play?
Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.
That being said, with the exception of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton, he turned his team around in to a playoff type team, and has won more games than any of those guys. For me it's simple, when Vick plays, the Falcons win a lot more than they lose, when he misses significant time, they become a 5-11 team.

He's had three seasons where he played 15 games, and the Falcons made the wild card, won the division, and finished 8-8 last year. They've gone 2-2 in playoff games with Vick. Not bad, but hardly superstar territory.

That was really my point, that right now the best you're going to get from him is 10-11 wins and maybe a playoff win before he runs into a team that has the player and coaching talent to stop him. The "they win more when he starts" argument is not really a good measuring stick and something you could say about most NFL starters. The year the Falcons went 5-11, their backups were Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner, so their record was hardly surprising. Matt Schaub's only started two games, both losses, but that's not definitive statistically.

Vick is only a star because his freakish athleticism makes him a curiosity. Sure, he causes matchup problems, but teams with decent defenses and good defensive coordinators have consistently found ways to stymie him and force him to beat them through the air, which he usually can't do. His QB rating, completion %, and yardage amounts are consistently in the bottom 25% of the league. There are at least 12 other QBs I'd rather have on my team than him, because I know he either cannot or will not make the changes to his game that he needs to make to be a top 5 QB.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:55 pm

Brando70 wrote:
bkrich83 wrote:
Brando70 wrote: Compare him to the other #1 draft pick QBs that are starting (both Mannings, Carr, Palmer, Alex Smith, and Bledsoe), and all of them save Bledsoe look considerably better than Vick.
That being said, with the exception of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton, he turned his team around in to a playoff type team, and has won more games than any of those guys. For me it's simple, when Vick plays, the Falcons win a lot more than they lose, when he misses significant time, they become a 5-11 team.
He's had three seasons where he played 15 games, and the Falcons made the wild card, won the division, and finished 8-8 last year. They've gone 2-2 in playoff games with Vick. Not bad, but hardly superstar territory.

That was really my point, that right now the best you're going to get from him is 10-11 wins and maybe a playoff win before he runs into a team that has the player and coaching talent to stop him. The "they win more when he starts" argument is not really a good measuring stick and something you could say about most NFL starters. The year the Falcons went 5-11, their backups were Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner, so their record was hardly surprising. Matt Schaub's only started two games, both losses, but that's not definitive statistically.

Vick is only a star because his freakish athleticism makes him a curiosity. Sure, he causes matchup problems, but teams with decent defenses and good defensive coordinators have consistently found ways to stymie him and force him to beat them through the air, which he usually can't do. His QB rating, completion %, and yardage amounts are consistently in the bottom 25% of the league. There are at least 12 other QBs I'd rather have on my team than him, because I know he either cannot or will not make the changes to his game that he needs to make to be a top 5 QB.

My point was, look at their records when he's missed significant time. Like I said, Atlanta is a lot more succesful when he plays, than when he doesn't. And as I pointed out, thus far, outside of possibly Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning, he's made a bigger impact as far as winning games, getting to the playoffs and winning playoff games, than the other #1 picks that were mentioned. Hell I think he's won more playoff games than Peyton has also.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:21 pm

bkrich83 wrote:Hell I think he's won more playoff games than Peyton has also.

Kordell Stewart has more playoff wins than Peyton.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:48 pm

pk500 wrote:
RobVarak wrote:This is either going to end one of two ways for the Falcolns. Either Vick's willingness to run gets him destroyed on one of these options and it makes the decision for ATL, or they realize that a real NFL QB with an accurate arm and an ability to read a defense is a much better option and finally end the Vick era.
Not a chance. Vick sells too many seats, too many replica jerseys and gets the Falcons on high-profile, national Sunday and Monday night games for the Atlanta brass to end the Vick era any time soon.

Take care,
PK

Not to mention, he is already the second winningest QB in Falcons history. He has brought some respect and publicity to one of the worst franchises in the NFL.... Get him some receivers and his passing will improve.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:58 pm

Brando70 wrote:
He's had three seasons where he played 15 games, and the Falcons made the wild card, won the division, and finished 8-8 last year. They've gone 2-2 in playoff games with Vick. Not bad, but hardly superstar territory.

That was really my point, that right now the best you're going to get from him is 10-11 wins and maybe a playoff win before he runs into a team that has the player and coaching talent to stop him.

You could say the same thing about Peyton Manning. When he has a brick wall to throw behind he does well. When you put pressure on him, he folds. Manning's receivers make the outstanding catches.. Go watch the falcons.. Vick's receivers don't even make the routine ones.

Brando70 wrote: The "they win more when he starts" argument is not really a good measuring stick and something you could say about most NFL starters.

I think it is. You are talking about a franchise that has never had back to back winning season.

Brando70 wrote: There are at least 12 other QBs I'd rather have on my team than him, because I know he either cannot or will not make the changes to his game that he needs to make to be a top 5 QB.

Put those 12 QBs on the Falcons(except McNabb if he is one of them) and you will have a 11 loss team. The Facons offensive line is NOT built for pass protection nor the pass. The team was designed from the ground up to be a running team.. They did spend 2 first rounders on WRs but they might as well play for the Detroit Lions.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:02 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
bkrich83 wrote:Hell I think he's won more playoff games than Peyton has also.
Kordell Stewart has more playoff wins than Peyton.

Peyton's tied with Bubby Brister

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:19 pm

Brando70 wrote:Peyton's tied with Bubby Brister

Stop depressing me, guys...

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:42 pm

bdunn13 wrote:
Brando70 wrote: The "they win more when he starts" argument is not really a good measuring stick and something you could say about most NFL starters.
I think it is. You are talking about a franchise that has never had back to back winning season.

Exactly. This team was horrid before he got there. It's no coincidence when he's there they are annually a playoff team, and when he doesn't they are a contender for the first pick in the draft.

All of those QB's that were mentioned as also being #1 picks. Which one of them has accomplished or won more than Vick? I think Vick has as many or more playoff wins than any of them. So the he needs to pass as well as the other #1 picks at QB doesn't wash.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:40 pm

Peyton has at least 2 playoff victories right? He beat the Broncos at least twice in the playoffs.

If Vick has two playoff wins, that's more than Grossman and yet, people are already predicting great things for the Bears because of Grossman's play so far.

Perhaps Grossman will deliver or perhaps the same thing that happened to the Colts last year will happen this year to the Bears.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:53 pm

wco81 wrote:Peyton has at least 2 playoff victories right? He beat the Broncos at least twice in the playoffs.

If Vick has two playoff wins, that's more than Grossman and yet, people are already predicting great things for the Bears because of Grossman's play so far.

Perhaps Grossman will deliver or perhaps the same thing that happened to the Colts last year will happen this year to the Bears.

I believe Manning is now 3-6 in the postseason.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:00 pm

bkrich83 wrote:I believe Manning is now 3-6 in the postseason.

OK, I think Kordell only has 2 victories

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:07 pm

Dave wrote:
Brando70 wrote:Peyton's tied with Bubby Brister
Stop depressing me, guys...

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Hello Chicago Bears.....there's a game being played in Arizona.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:58 pm

I'm really gonna miss the great entertainment from 'da bears' fans on the radio if the cards hold on and win this game. Listening to sports talk radio the last 2 weeks was like a big SNL Da Bears skit with all those bears fans talking about going 16-0 seriously

TheHiddenTrack · Post by **TheHiddenTrack** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:44 pm

Tonight pretty much confirms my belief that the top 10 teams in the NFL are virtually interchangable. All of the better teams in the league have flaws and can be beaten pretty easily if they are on the road.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:44 pm

The Bears are special...They are the opposite of the seahags...

Amazing!!!

Anyone thinks the seawhiners are winning the NFC is crazy.

Win or lose....The class is the class....

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 pm

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bears are some bad mofos