OT: Lootings, Carjackings, and shootings in New Orleans

[mobiggins]

Well, it's pretty obvious that blue will defend Bush to the grave. The man could intentionally nuke an american city, and blue would jump to his defense. Bush is an idiot. He had 4 years to plan a rapid response to a calamity of this size. WTF is the homeland security dept. for?? Is Nagin to blame for any of this? Sure. But there's not too much that he could do in the face of this hurricane. An evacuation system, sure. But even that could not have evacuated everyone, and the federal government STILL would have had to come in RAPIDLY to aid people that would ostensibly have been left in the city, like cops, firefighters, and stalwart citizens. Rapidly, to secure property, distribute supplies, stem the flooding, stop looting, put out fires, take control. They had 4 years to do this. It's why Bush created the HSA.
Nagin might have some blame to bear. But I would stop defending Bush so feverishly, because he and the Republicans in power have had 4 years to plan for the response, which has been a colossal failure.

As for the race issue, I think the time has come to shift the discussion from 'what are white people doing to keep the black race down' to 'what are black people doing to keep themselves down.' I wasn't born in this country, and I think I bring a bit of an outsider's perspective to america's race problem. In big cities, I can say with 99.9% confidence that I don't believe that there is systemic, pervasive white on black racism anymore. Maybe it's different in rural counties, or in private, but I do believe that, for instance, a white manager will give an equal shake to a black applicant as to a white one. Blacks, to me, seem much more racially focused than whites toward the opposite race. This is historically justified, of course, but with the decline of white racism happening at a faster rate than the black realization of that decline, I think the biggest hurdle that blacks face comes from within. There is a vacuum created by that discrepancy of perception, a vacuum filled by current black pop culture role models. Popular black culture has some awful role models, and black youth seem to be buying their message wholesale. Awful treatment of women, and a culture of selfish entitlement and materialism are rotting black communities from inside, destroying gentility and propriety in favor of a me-first ethos that impedes black progress from within and poisons black/white discourse, as well as giving whites something to get defensive about, further atrophying the dialogue. I hope all that made sense. It's a complicated issue, but I think blacks have more of an opportunity than ever to make it in today's America, and many of them are choosing to wait for the train of entitlement rather than jumping on the train of opportunity and self-reliance.

[matthewk]

By the way, who is Kanye West????

An ignorant duma$$

[matthewk]

Another short observation. I think I like the Mayor of New Orleans. Sure, he made have made a critcal error or two prior to the storm hitting, but what he said the other day was great. It was refreshing to see a politician completely throw down any PR bull and be honest.

I really liked when he said there should be no more press conferences until they are standing down there in front of 40,000 troops and vehicles as far as the eye can see.

[pk500]

A print report from a credible source -- can't remember the major American paper -- said hurricane preparedness drills have dwindled dramatically since Homeland Security was formed. Natural disaster planning and recovery are part of Homeland Security's responsibility and have been since the agency was unwisely formed.

EDIT: Here's the story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9178501/

But Bush's sole focus with Homeland Security has been a terror attack, according to the report. So the Feds were caught with their pants around their ankles and their hands on their dicks when Katrina nailed the Gulf Coast.

That's the danger of a White House led by a myopic, stubborn man. He sees one threat in the world, and the rest don't matter until it's too late.

Blinders are great for horses hitting the top of the stretch at Churchill Downs. They're not very good equipment for the leader of the free world.

Take care,
PK

[kevinpars]

I just have to wonder what things would be like if McCain had won the 2000 South Carolina Primary and went on to win the election. While he is a lot more conservative than I am and while I often disagree with him, he is a smart, strong and articulate leader with a strong sense of right and wrong. He is a man who served our country in the military. He is willing to stand up for what he believes is right, And as an added plus, he can speak in complete sentences.

Listening to Bush speak give me the opposite of confidence.

If people want to believe that we are better off today than we were when Clinton left office, go ahead. If you want to think that creating Homeland Security and then putting FEMA under it was a good idea and made America a safer place, go ahead. If you think sending our soldiers over to Iraq was to make America a safer place, go ahead. If you want to pay $3.00 for a gallon of gas and think that the oilmen in the administration give a crap about it, go ahead. If you think that the president's chief advisor outing a CIA agent in a time of war is no big deal, go ahead. Go fill up your Hummer with premium and head to the big football game and have a ball. Drink a cold one for me.

And one more thing, there is no way you will ever convince me that if Katrina had hit a city full of white upper middle class investment bankers that it would take this long to get help. This administration doesn't give a crap about a bunch of lower income minorities who didn't vote for them. You will never convince me otherwise.

And by the way, where in the hell is Dick Cheney? Haven't heard a word from him in months.

[DivotMaker]

I think the single biggest reason that turned this into a cluster $*#@ of epic proportions is that when all the highways were bumper-to-bumper leaving the city, and there were 20,000 people in the Superdome, everyone assumed that the city was mostly empty. I think there were 10X as many people left as they thought. That totally fubar'd everything they were doing in response. Their idea of scale was totally wrong.

Exactly.

[Leebo33]

I think the cool thing these days is for white people to make themselves feel better by calling other white people racists from their suburban lilly-white neighborhood. It's like the people that b*tch about the tax cuts, but yet pocket the money every year. I'd like to see all these people get out and do something to help the black community rather than pointing the finger at others. I'm not talking about anyone in particular here, but I'm sure it applies to some.

[bdoughty]

I think the cool thing these days is for white people to make themselves feel better by calling other white people racists from their suburban lilly-white neighborhood. It's like the people that b*tch about the tax cuts, but yet pocket the money every year. I'd like to see all these people get out and do something to help the black community rather than pointing the finger at others. I'm not talking about anyone in particular here, but I'm sure it applies to some.

Kane West Jr has invaded the DSP forums..... Ack.

Well there are 4 african american couples on my street so I am spared by the Lilly-white neighborhood remark, yet it is a suburban neighborhood.

[DivotMaker]

If you want to pay $3.00 for a gallon of gas and think that the oilmen in the administration give a crap about it, go ahead.

Sorry, but I have to respond to this....

I find it sad that people vent at others for an issue they have little to no control over. The Fed Govt. has little to no control over the price of gasoline. Here is why:

1) The Fed Govt. has only one avenue in which to impact oil/gas prices - releasing crude from the SPF. Period. The "oilmen in the administration" do give a crap about it because of the impact on the overall economy and budget deficits. These same "oilmen in the administration" have been trying for YEARS to get the ANWR made available for drilling to help ease our dependence on foreign imports. How much control do the "oilmen in the adminstration" have over the fact that 10+ % of our nations refining capacity was knocked out by Katrina? Yet you can sit there and say they don't care about $3.00 gasoline? Unfreaking real....

2) The oil market is controlled by 3 factors:
a) Supply and demand (of which our 5% excess supply 2 years ago is now down to less than 2% making the market far more volatile than it ordinarily would be)
b) Wall Street and commodity brokers
c) OPEC - less and less as supply issues are becoming more of a factor due to the increases in demand from China, India, etc...

3) It has been 25+ years since any company in the US has built a crude oil refinery. Care to guess why that is?

a) Can you say prohibitive environmental regulations making the cost of building refineries prohibitively expensive? You would think that the Fed Govt. would relax these regulations to entice companies to build refineries.
b) On top of no new refineries, what has happened to our gasoline/crude consumption in those 25 years?

Katrina's wrath has exposed a serious issue with our country's ability to keep fuel available. While I realize it is not every day that 10% of the country's volumes are shut down, it does highlight the fact that we are not at all prepared for these kinds of disruptions, nor are we prepared for ANY kind of disruption because we have made it prohibitively expensive to build refineries to ease the supply fears.

[dougb]

I find it somewhat ironic that the first President Bush was heavily crticized for a slow and poorly coordinated rescue and recovery effort in the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew and that W. Bush seems to be repeating this performance in the aftermath of Katrina.

Any comments on whether this is a fair comparison from those in Florida during and after Andrew?

Best wishes,

Doug

[anchester]

this thread is so political. Gov't response is always inefficient, burueacratic etc. This disaster is much bigger in scale than any other for 2 reasons 1) the number of square miles affected. 2) the city is underwater and thus there is absolutely no infrastructure (no ability to transport or communicate efficiently)

This site is extremely anti-bush. Every time something goes wrong, I hear it is bush's fault. Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant that sounds. Bush is basically just like any other president. It's just one guy for christ sakes! Do you really think that if John Kerry or somebody else was in office the response would have been better. It's so easy to always criticize and 2nd guess and not offer detailed, realistic solutions.

Govt and politics never make the right choices. Govt is always reactionary and short-sighted. The gov't is just a reflection of the people and most people don't make the right choices. Example: The people of new orleans are complaining about how could the leavy system be so bad. For the last 50 years they have known that the leavy system was vulnerable. But it takes a ton of money to fix it, and people want to use that money for immediate city services and programs rather to fix the long term problem.

The gov't is a huge, inefficient bureacracy that moves at snail's pace. To criticize one or 2 guys is ridiculous. Problem is this 1) Govt is never efficient. Making it bigger makes it less so 2) Govt is reactive and always makes decisions for the short term (to get re-elected)

[DivotMaker]

Could not agree more anchester....with everything.

[bdoughty]

This site is extremely anti-bush. Every time something goes wrong, I hear it is bush's fault. Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant that sounds. Bush is basically just like any other president. It's just one guy for christ sakes! Do you really think that if John Kerry or somebody else was in office the response would have been better. It's so easy to always criticize and 2nd guess and not offer detailed, realistic solutions.

That works on both sides of the aisle. I have yet to see Blueduke offer a single valid REALISTIC solution, yet he continues to attack the Mayor. Do YOU know how REDICULOUS and IGNORANT that sounds. Or how REDICULOUS and IGNORANT it sounds to only refer to the Anti-Bush crowd? Yes politics play a part in some peoples responses but not all. Last I checked I was Republican. Bush and the Goverment he is in charge of has done a PISS POOR JOB.

If you go to a resturaunt and get poor service who do you complain to? The cashier? The Maitradee? The Dishwasher? Or the Manager/Owner?

[wco81]

Gas was already $3 or headed there before Katrina.

GOP which favors development of ANWR controls the White House and both houses of Congress. I believe the new Energy Bill (which incidentally was virtually drafted by the energy industry) allows ANWR development but IIRC, we won't see any production for about 10 years. And no proponent of ANWR is promising that it's going to make a sizeable dent in supply or lowering prices.

Whether the White House is happy about it or not, the oil companies right now are the richest companies, probably in the history of the world. Look up Exxon's financials the last few years, especially their cash holdings. High oil prices are great for their bottom lines. Meanwhile, the energy industry donates overwhelmingly to the GOP. Coincidence? Who knows.

Yes Washington doesn't have direct control over the global market prices for oil. But just a few short years ago, oil prices were under $30, even $20. One of the events that caused it to spike above $30 was the war.

Has increased demand from China in just 3-4 years accounted for the almost $50 increase in price?

There is also a lot of speculation going on. Some big players on Wall Street moved aggressively into the more volatile oil market at a time when equity returns were sluggish at best. One bank (Morgan Stanley?) has actually built up storage capacity to aid their trading activities.

[Leebo33]

Or how REDICULOUS and IGNORANT it sounds to only refer to the Anti-Bush crowd? Yes politics play a part in some peoples responses but not all. Last I checked I was Republican. Bush and the Goverment he is in charge of has done a PISS POOR JOB.

I agree. I am a registered Republican and I think Bush is the worst President during my lifetime. Katrina wasn't his fault, but it isn't surprising that the response has been pitiful given the utter incompetence throughout the administration. The only people I really respected in his administration are now gone (Ridge and Powell).

[anchester]

I think one sided criticism (be it the liberal NO mayer or conservative Bush) are both equally bad. However, I have seen a hell of a lot more one side anti bush stuff than anything else.

[DivotMaker]

I am a registered Republican and I think Bush is the worst President during my lifetime.

While I am also a registered Republican, I do not share your sentiments on Bush. I will admit that there are times I question his leadership and his agenda, but this is not one of those times. I can think of a few Presidents who make me shudder when I think of some of the things they have done, but I won't get into that here in this thread.

Katrina wasn't his fault, but it isn't surprising that the response has been pitiful given the utter incompetence throughout the administration.

Comments such as these make me realize just how little people think about issues like mobilizing forces of National Guard, military, etc. The Fed Govt. is a huge bureacracy which in its very process is slow to disseminate information and slow to act upon that information. This bureacracy is not so much a reflection of his administration (with the exception of Chertoff) as it is the very nature of the process itself. When you are trying to mobilize all of the logistics of moving THOUSANDS of people from various locations to be dispersed to another geographic region, this takes TIME. There is no denying that the suffering in N.O. was harsh and difficult to watch. But I do not subscribe to the theory that this administration is 100% responsible for how slow the relief arrived. I will concede that they were ill-prepared as were, oh I don't know, 99.99% of the rest of the world was.
[/quote]

[Jared]

I really can't believe that criticism of the administration's response here can be interpreted by ANYONE as simply being "anti-Bush" (or that this site is "anti-Bush"...we've got the full range of political opinions here). Yes, this is a giant disaster. BUT this is a giant disaster which has been predicted for DECADES, a giant disaster that the government has planned for (including running a simulated Cat 3 exercise, Hurricane Pam, LAST YEAR). The government's response is unacceptable, regardless of whether there's a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Communist, benevolent dictator, etc. in office.

When people criticize Bush, that's taken as a shorthand for the whole administration, that is led by the President. Obviously he's not the only one to blame. But when his administration is making horrible mistakes (FEMA director, who before coming on had no experience in disaster management...he was the college roommate of the previous FEMA director), are on vacation (Rice and Cheney), or are saying that the break of the levees is something that no one could have predicted (Bush), then they are being absolutely pathetic in the largest natural disaster in our nation's HISTORY. And these are people that are either hired by the President or are the President.

(And really...how clueless could Bush be to say that breaks in the levee were something that couldn't be predicted. Nearly all of the disaster scenarios for a Cat 3 or above involved major flooding from levee breaks and/or overtopping. I knew that sitting on my couch watching pre-hurricane coverage over the weekend....and the President didn't?)

Regardless of how valid the criticism is, the fall back is saying that criticizing the administration is being "anti-Bush". But this situation is sooooooooo clearly a major screw-up at the federal level, I don't see how anyone can be defending the administration here (even if you are a die-hard Republican).

And a quick caveat. The fault isn't solely on the administration. Half of the NOPD failed miserably. But when you have a major disaster, you can't rely on local/state government because the cities and states affected are decimated. They simply won't have the capabilities to fully respond to the disaster...and that's where the federal gov't comes in. And this administration has failed the people of New Orleans.

[pk500]

Ironic, isn't it, that the Federal government takes more out of your paycheck every week than the state, but when a disaster strikes and the state's infrastructure is crippled, the Federal government is trying to pin all of the blame on the state.

If the Feds are taking a majority of the tax dollars, then they have to be Big Daddy in this situation. And the Feds were deadbeat dads until yesterday, when National Guard trucks rolled into NOLA at the same time Bush was visiting the stricken city.

Coincidence? Hardly.

I'm not inferring the Feds waited to release aid until Bush visited. But you damn well know the Feds pushed hard to ensure aid convoys were rolling on CNN, MSNBC and Fox as bush was on the tarmac at Louis Armstrong Airport.

The White House can't stop PR spinning, even when a huge crisis strikes America.

Take care,
PK

[TheHiddenTrack]

This site is extremely anti-bush. Every time something goes wrong, I hear it is bush's fault. Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant that sounds. Bush is basically just like any other president. It's just one guy for christ sakes! Do you really think that if John Kerry or somebody else was in office the response would have been better.

I guarantee you John Kerry or ANYBODY else would have done a better job. Anyone who would have read the paper, would have done a better job.

I'm surprised he let something like this disrupt his vacation.

[RobVarak]

Ah, finally. After a week I can subject someone other than my wife to my opinions.

Blame whomever you choose, there is certainly enough to go around. But after devouring the news over the last week, it is crystal clear to me that the majority of the f-ups rest on the shoulders of the state and local authorities. Neither Mayor Shite-For-Brains nor the perpetually frazzled Governor Clueless acted early enough, and when they did act they have done so in a piecemeal and clumsy fashion.

One thing that is abundantly clear from the last week of watching the media, experts and citizens is that people do not have even the most rudimentary understanding of the principles of federalism. This isn't entirely surprising given the fact that even the Supreme Court seems a bit mystified by it lately

That's not to say that FEMA etc have been perfect, but given their dependence on locala and especially state authority they have been operating in a hamstrung fashion from Day 1.

The race element is being blown WAY out of proportion here. First of all, the looting/found thing is truly tone-deaf and clueless on the part of the AP. But let me tell you something. I spent an unhealthy amount of time this week watching CNN, Fox, TWC, MSNBC and any other initials that would cover the story, and there has been nothing similar to this stupidity in the coverage. The most common images have been of brave first responders of all races risking their own necks to save victims of all colors, a far more accurate and telling image than the goofy photo caption which has caused this ridiculous and distracting kerfuffle.

[DivotMaker]

Great post Rob...could not agree more.

[DivotMaker]

I guarantee you John Kerry or ANYBODY else would have done a better job.

Laughable. You cannot guarantee any such thing because you, I, nor anyone here have a clue as to what goes on during a process of this magnitude.

Anyone who would have read the paper, would have done a better job.

I read the paper every single day since this has happened. That hasn't made me any more capable to support this effort. I really don't know where some of you get this nonsense that this process is all "so easy anyone can do it". If it IS so easy, run for election and show everyone how YOU can make the difference.

I'm surprised he let something like this disrupt his vacation.

Utterly ridiculous comment based on speculative news reports that are obviously anti-Bush. For you to suggest that Bush was not in almost constant contact with FEMA since before the storm hit and afterwards is pretty disingenuous, IMHO. It is one thing to dislike or hate Bush, it is another thing to assume he did not care about this disaster.

[bdoughty]

I think we found Dick Cheney. Just had no idea he was a beta tester for Tiger Woods.

EMPHASIS ON THE

[Jared]

I really have no idea how "the majority of the f-ups rest on the shoulders of the state and local authorities" when the resources in the state and local regions (N.O., for example) have been decimated. How is the mayor of N.O. going to mount a completely effective response to the hurricane/flood when 80% of his city is underwater and thousands are dead? He's going to need help from the federal gov't. And that's what the federal gov't is there for. From the Dept of Homeland Security website:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness.

It's the responsiblity of the federal government, and it makes sense. Local gov't can only do so much in major catastrophes.