OT: Racing 2017 (Spoiler Alert)

[Rodster]

The Volkswagen motorsport boss ripped Formula 1 a new one. Well, so much for seeing a VW/Audi/Porsche works team in the near future.

His bullet points are:

1) Too expensive
2) Requires between 1,500-2,000 people to run two cars
3) Only the top four teams have a shot at wining or getting on the podium
4) Ferrari and Merc are fine with the current way things are run because they have the money and resources
5) Races are unprofitable for the race promoters
6) Low attendance and most races
7) Not enough sponsors willing to pay the big bucks to keep teams afloat
8 - Most teams are with the exception of Ferrari/Merc/Redbull are in financial trouble

http://en.f1i.com/news/277202-volkswage ... rt-f1.html

[pk500]

Further proof that Audi/Porsche/VW are brilliant engineers and poor marketers. There is no better global marketing platform among motorsports on Earth than F1.

Audi/Porsche/VW can run away from sports cars -- which capture the global imagination ONE WEEKEND PER YEAR -- and head to Formula E, a dull racing category that draws a tiny number of eyeballs compared to F1. That's fine, as the Huns see Formula E as a place to develop electric propulsion technology.

But the fact remains Mercedes, Honda, Renault and Ferrari continue to spend big sums in F1 because that sport provides the most eyeballs and the best motorsports marketing platform on Earth, while still serving as a fine tech test bed.

There is no greater crucible of racing competition on Earth than F1. It's Darwinism, at its finest. If Porsche/Audi/VW don't want to take on that competition, let them slink away to electric cars. Fine.

[Rodster]

While I agree with what you say which is the reason Haas is in F1, the fact remains that his points do merit some truth. When Max Mosley was the FIA president he was saying pretty much the same thing about F1 and why he was pushing for a budget cap. And now we have Mercedes, Audi, Porche and several other car mfgs embracing Formula E with the Ferrari president saying Ferrari, Fiat, Maderati need to get involved in Formula E.

Toto Wolff even went on to say that FE is the future.

[pk500]

While I agree with what you say which is the reason Haas is in F1, the fact remains that his points do merit some truth. When Max Mosley was the FIA president he was saying pretty much the same thing about F1 and why he was pushing for a budget cap. And now we have Mercedes, Audi, Porche and several other car mfgs embracing Formula E with the Ferrari president saying Ferrari, Fiat, Maderati need to get involved in Formula E.

Toto Wolff even went on to say that FE is the future.

That's balderdash. It's trendy now to say "Formula E is the future." Maybe for development of passenger vehicles. Maybe.

But it's the future of motorsport? That's the biggest crock of sh*t on Earth. People go to races to see, hear and feel loud, snarling or shrieking cars that push the absolute limits of performance on all components of the car, not just electric batteries.

The same well-drilled PR flacks like Wolff and Marchionne who claim FE is the future also claim F1 engines are too quiet. You can't have it both ways.

I've been to an FE event, one I worked in 2015 in Miami. Very cool vibe. Drew a very uncustomary racing crowd. The cars showed higher performance than I expected. But not once during that weekend did I ever say: "You know what? I'd rather watch this than a petrol-powered race any day of the week."

FE was a nice diversion. That's what it will remain, even as manufacturers flock to it. IMSA has more manufacturer participation than any form of motorsport in North America, yet it has the smallest crowds and lowest TV ratings of any major touring racing series on this continent.

Go figure.

[GB_Simo]

Another point which requires consideration: did any of the new Formula E manufacturers mentioned have a role in any recent high-profile emissions scandals? Ones that earned the suffix "gate", by any chance?

Look at Neel Jani's comments about the FE car in comparison to an LMP1 Porsche. Much simpler to drive, much simpler to manage the technology. It's a low-cost way to maintain a motorsport presence while appearing to retain some road car relevance and saving yourself a few quid on the tech into the bargain, and not a fossil fuel in sight to fall foul of. The future of motorsport? Probably not. The future of passenger vehicles? Possibly not. A reasonable place for those brands to be right now? Probably, yeah.

[Rodster]

The trend is electric vehicles. The UK is set to ban petrol cars in the next 20 yrs? Germany is considering the same. Then you have Jean Todt who is trying to make Formula One more in tune with road car technology which again is going electric, at least that's the trend.

I'm not predicting how racing will be 20-30 years out but judging by current trends it could be a helluva lot different. Could it be that auto mfgs are now embracing EV due to this?

Auto racing has it share of alarm bells. Just yesterday I read an article which says that the NASCAR truck series might get shutdown as there's little attendance, fewer sponsors and teams on the brink of bankruptcy.

In NASCAR it's the similar with teams not able to pay the consistent veterans and instead they hire up and coming drivers. Those same veteran Cup drivers looking for a seat are now forced to take a massive pay cut and sometimes their drives and pay are linked to results.

Currently Formula One is the only series bucking the trend so how long can they go on before something gives. Teams with the exception of Ferrari and Mercedes are finding it harder to land big sponsors.

So maybe just maybe the VW Motorsport boss was seeing the same red flags that other racing series are now experiencing.

Edit: I meant to say banning petrol car sales by the UK and Germany

[XXXIV]

Great job Hamilton holding Vettell off with seeming ease to win Belgium tightening the championship race.

I thought Seb was going to get him but uh uh.

Should be a fun ride rest of season.

[Dave]

Anyone else finding the Haas drivers (and team, really) more unlikable by the week?

The closing laps of the IndyCar race at Watkins Glen were fascinating, how cool for Rossi to get his first road course win by keeping Dixon at bay in a flat-out sprint. Super impressive, great way to close out a strong sophomore campaign by Rossi.

[pk500]

Anyone else finding the Haas drivers (and team, really) more unlikable by the week?

The closing laps of the IndyCar race at Watkins Glen were fascinating, how cool for Rossi to get his first road course win by keeping Dixon at bay in a flat-out sprint. Super impressive, great way to close out a strong sophomore campaign by Rossi.

Grosjean always has been typically French -- soft and moans about everything. He needs to take a few lessons from fellow Frenchman Bourdais in that department.

I don't have a problem with Magnussen. I love how he told Hulkenberg, "Suck my balls," when Hulk interrupted a live interview with Danish TV to whine about Magnussen's tactics.

But I have a growing problem with Gene Haas. Did you hear his comments to NBCSN about considering a pullout from F1 because it's too tough for his team to reach the top three?

F1 almost NEVER has more than two or three teams capable of fighting for victories. It's petrol Darwinism, Gene. There are no schemes guaranteed to create parity, like in NASCAR.

Holy f*cking naive. I thought Haas was smarter than that.

[Dave]

I did see Haas' comments and had the same thought. What the hell did he think he was buying into? Maybe he's finding a softer market for his CNC machines in Europe than he hoped and can only write off the sponsorship costs for so long.

[GB_Simo]

That'd seem logical. It's hard to imagine that either the outright costs or the difficulty involved in winning things are a surprise to him, after all. As far as Gene's drivers go, I don't think Magnussen is a champion in waiting but I've got no particular problem with him being there. Grosjean needs to recognise when to stop complaining about the car and when to concentrate on making the best of what he has, at which point he might be a little more free to unlock the undoubted potential that's in severe danger of going to waste.

Nobody else has said it so far, so I'll do it: Lance Stroll was pretty good this weekend. Finished where the car should have done after qualifying where it shouldn't have done, aided somewhat by his lack of subtlety allowing him to generate tyre temperature that others couldn't in Q2 and Q3. Whether that approach will pay dividends in Singapore is another matter, and it's coming to something when Felipe Massa is the closest thing a team has to a stylist behind the wheel, but there was very little to fault about Stroll's Monza weekend.

[pk500]

Dave: You're probably on to something about a soft market for Haas' machines, especially on the heels of Brexit. Also realize that Haas has paid Kurt Busch's $10 million salary this season out of his pocket and half of his car costs through the Haas Automation sponsorship. Monster doesn't kick in that much on that car. Haas also has funded part of Bowyer's ride, and SHR is running pretty poorly this year other than Harvick.

Combine that with Haas' stall on the F1 grid compared to its successful first year, and I think billionaire Haas is impatient because his Midas touch can't produce winning race cars as well as it produces CNC machines desired around the world.

Stroll deserves the cap tip, Adam. I thought the kid was drowning in ineptitude in the first quarter of the season, reaching F1 only because of daddy's money. But Stroll has proven he can drive since first scoring points in Montreal. A podium at Baku and front-row start at Monza are better than Jenson Button did in his first year at Williams straight from F3 in 2000, the same jump Stroll made this year.

I'm not suggesting Stroll is World Champion material like Button (even if Button limped to the title only after enjoying a HUGE technical advantage in the first half of 2009. Dude is overrated.). But Stroll is showing better skill and a very strong mentality during the second half of the season. Many drivers, including the aforementioned Grosjean, would have melted under the withering media and fan criticism Stroll faced early in the season.

[Dave]

Great to see Josef Newgarden win the IndyCar championship today. He's going to be a force for years and is a fantastic representative for the series.

I took my 3-year old to his first race today and he had a great time - it helped that he got to meet his favorite, Conor Daly, before qualifying yesterday. Huge thumbs-up to the Foyt team for making it happen, so fun to see your kids experience something like that. He pointed at Conor (and his "friend" Carlos Munoz) every lap for the first half of the race. Just wish the IndyCar shop on-site had some of the small die-cast models of his car since the one we bought at the 500 looks like it went through a wicked shunt at this point.

Sonoma doesn't provide the best on-track action, but it was fun watching Pagenaud with his "go like hell" strategy. I always enjoy it when that strategy works at the expense of drivers conserving fuel. But it's a gorgeous track, the weather was perfect, and we got to see the drivers really wheel their cars up the hill through turn 2.

Being on the west coast meant I missed all of the Formula 1 excitement. Ferrari certainly made a mess of a great opportunity.

[pk500]

Sounds like a great weekend, Dave!

Good thing there was inherent championship tension among five drivers at that race, because the action was rather pedestrian by IndyCar standards. Still stoked to see Joe New win, as he will be a great representative for the series for years to come, as you said. It's refreshing to see an American champion in IndyCar not immediately be greeted with questions and rumors of, "When's he going to NASCAR?"

Dixon may have driven his best season even though he fell short in the title, as I can't remember the Ganassi team being this weak in a long time. Dixie had no wing men like in the past. Kanaan is past his sell date and can't keep pace, Chilton is a pay driver, and Kimball is a rolling nerf bar with a sponsorship.

The rumored arrival of former F1 test driver and WEC Porsche assassin Brendon Hartley next season to Ganassi should give Dixon the competitive teammate he needs. Two Kiwis -- that will be cool!

[Dave]

Man, the video from every 2018 IndyCar aerokit test gets me more excited for next season. The cars are so sleek and just look faster. Excited to see how all of the changes translate to the track, the ugly pre-aerokit Dallara provided some great racing and now the wings are creating an even smaller % of overall downforce, should be great.

Glad Toro Rosso is kicking Kvyat to the sidelines for a couple races, people seem to think he has the inside line to a 2018 seat but that would buck the history of Red Bull's treatment of underwhelming performances. I'd prefer he join Aleshin on SMP Racing team and make the move to sports cars.

Speaking of sports cars, how about that van der Zande pass at the corkscrew?!? That guy stuffed it in there and somehow pulled it off without getting in the dirt, unlike Zanardi's famous move. And next year DPi adds Joest/Mazda and Penske/Acura, what a time to follow IMSA.

[Rodster]

It’s still unknown if Kvyat will lose his seat even if Pierre Gasly impresses and gets a Torro Rosso seat. Keep in mind that Carlos Sainz gave up his seat for Renault. It’s really down to Kvyat and what he’s done so far this year that will determines whether he stays or leaves.

Has anyone heard what the new Indycars will sound like? They really do look badass.

[pk500]

Has anyone heard what the new Indycars will sound like? They really do look badass.

They sound the same as the current car. Only the aero kit is changing, not the engine or chassis.

[GB_Simo]

Glad Toro Rosso is kicking Kvyat to the sidelines for a couple races, people seem to think he has the inside line to a 2018 seat but that would buck the history of Red Bull's treatment of underwhelming performances. I'd prefer he join Aleshin on SMP Racing team and make the move to sports cars.

The question is this: if not Kvyat, then who? If you assume that Toro Rosso exists to blood young drivers for the senior team, then they've got Gasly and that's about your lot - since they binned Niko Kari in the summer, their next cab off the rank is in Formula Renault 2.0, I believe. Honda might like to drop Nobuharu Matsushita in there but many remarkable things need to happen for him to earn a Superlicence this year, and the same applies to Sean Gelael but with "at all, ever" as the time frame, so I suspect his father's pounds, shillings and pence are the driving force behind his recent tests.

Unless there's a way of taking Wehrlein from Mercedes for a year or something like that, it's a difficult seat to fill with any kind of competitive young blood. If you wanted to abandon the team's ethos - perhaps because you've been trying to sell it for a while now and might as well make the car look as good as possible - perhaps you could take a punt on Robert Kubica if his Williams hopes come to nought, but I'm not sure who else there is that isn't like swapping a jack of clubs for a jack of spades.

[pk500]

There's a good reason why the Red Bull Junior program is dying on the vine: It's looking more and more like Red Bull will withdraw both of its teams from F1 after its contract with FOM expires in 2020. So Red Bull can start shutting its pipeline now.

The company has earned plenty of publicity and world titles from F1. But that's still not enough to justify the expense, due to control issues.

I've worked with Red Bull in MotoGP and now air racing, and it's VERY rare that the company stays for a long time in a conventional venture or a sport it didn't create or organize into an event.

Red Bull will continue to sponsor individual athletes, as it does in many extreme and non-extreme sports. It also will continue to spend heavily in extreme sports and series it created, such as the Red Bull Air Race World Championship. F1 is one of the few sports Red Bull didn't create in which it has a very large stake and enterprise.

Dietrich Mateschitz and the rest of Red Bull like to make their rules, create their events and shun outside influence and interference. That's not how it works in F1, even after Bernie's departure, so expect Mateschitz to spend his money elsewhere after 2020.

[GB_Simo]

Indeed, hence my use of it as justification for abandoning the team's original premise. Mateschitz has been seeking a way out of Toro Rosso for a good while and you would imagine both teams would have gone by now had it not been for that commercial commitment to stay until 2020. With STR about to become the Honda works team, what odds a Japanese buyout in a couple of years?

There was a suggestion made today on Sky Sports F1 that I may have been banking up the right tree in mentioning Bobby K as a possible STR driver. Robert did, of course, use the Red Bull simulators earlier this year so is something of a known quantity to them, with it being said that Honda are keen on the idea. Consider the source, though: one P Di Resta of Monte Carlo. Paul, of course, has no possible Williams-related ulterior motives...

Edit: barking up the right tree. How you bank up one, I've no idea, but apparently my phone does.

[Rodster]

I also think RB will leave after 2020. You really don't hear a lot about their up and coming drivers anymore. They're upset with the current engine regs and aren't sure things will even out in 2021 because the engine mfgs want to keep control so as to sell their engines to other teams. But that also kills off any chance of independent suppliers such as Cosworth coming back to F1. What we have heard is that Porsche is interested in supplying engines if the 2021 engine regs are favorable to them.

[Rodster]

Mad Max got his second win. Just imagine if that kid had a title winning car like a Merc or a Ferrari!.

[Dave]

My favorite moment from the race was when Alonso pulled an f-you move to Magnussen to get around him.

[pk500]

My favorite moment from the race was when Alonso pulled an f-you move to Magnussen to get around him.

Same here!

Vettel was pretty damn petulant toward Alonso on the radio late in the race. As Steve Matchett said, "Focus on what you're doing, son!"

[Dave]

Vettel was pretty damn petulant toward Alonso on the radio late in the race. As Steve Matchett said, "Focus on what you're doing, son!"

Also thought the tone of Vettel's radio transmission after Stroll destroyed the back of his car was pretty funny, he sounded like a very disappointed school teacher.