OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[RobVarak]

Palin is a tougher cookie than I thought. She also has genuine quality about her that I like. She seems about as "real folks" as a politician can get. That resonates with me.

But I do find three things odd about the Republicans' day today.

One, they insist on the media keeping the Palin children off-limits. Yet who was waiting at the base of the McCain jet this afternoon to greet the presidential nominee for a carefully orchestrated group hug and photo op? The entire Palin brood, including the father of Bristol's baby, Levi Johnston.

Every pol has their family with them after the big speeches. And in this case it was even more appropriate given the inappropriate way that the press has treated the story. She didn't talk about the pregnancy issue or inject them as an issue.

Two, how many times must we hear that John McCain is a "good man, an honorable man, a decent man?" How does that qualify him to be president? It seems that the GOP just can't let go of the Mount Rushmore/ movie star visage of Ronald Reagan, of what a president should be.

We know McCain was a POW; we know he's a good man. But how the f*ck does that qualify him to be the Chief Executive of this nation? It just seems very odd that McCain has a solid record of achievement in Congress, but the GOP is just glossing it over at this convention to paint McCain as a "good man, a hero."

I think the Fred Thompson speech addressed this point directly and eloquently:

Now, being a POW certainly doesn't qualify anyone to be president, but it does reveal character. My friends, this is the kind of character that civilizations from the beginning of our history have sought in their leaders-- strength, courage, humility, wisdom, duty, honor.

That seems to be a legitimate point to make. Every candidate has to sell their plan, their character and their background. The POW story is integral to 2 of the 3.

Oh, one flippant observation: Levi Johnston looked thrilled to bits to be there. Kid must be thinking: "What the f*ck? Last Thursday night I was dipping Skoal, eating moose jerky, playing NHL 08 and drinking a Bud Light with my boys. Now this sh*t one week later? Oh, f*ck."

Yep. And I kept thinking how weird it must be for Palin's kids to have a bunch of overserved middle aged Republicans wearing buttons with their mom's picture and stuff like "Hoosiers for the Hottie" on it! LOL

Edit:

Other chuckleworthy stuff. From James Lileks:

Proof of Sara Palin's power: Google trends #3 topic at the moment is "haberdasher."

Edit 2 (I really need to get some sleep, but CNN is replaying Huckabee)

Huckabee was one unhappy evangelical tonight. He started his speech with some very ungracious language about how he hoped to be making his speech Thurs. He delivered an ok speech (although it was nice to see how touched that vet was by his teacher story) and then spent the rest of the evening sulking through the Giuliani and Palin speeches. If Donna Brazile wasn't there peddling her peculiar brand of "analysis", I'd say that he was the most miserable person in the hall

[RobVarak]

I thought Giuliani was perfect grist for the base's mill, and Palin was brilliant. And that's before I came here and saw the reactions. Now I think I may have underestimated how good she was.

-----Edit
Just got the Obama "reaction" and a quick had a quick peek at Daily Kos. I did underestimate...

I'm a little surprised by the level of enthusiasm you have displayed, Rob. I mean, the GOP has begun to go down the populist path here, and you haven't exactly expressed much love for that strategy in the past.

Policy and campaigning are two different things. Every four years everyone's a populist. The parties just pick on different elites LOL

Populism to me is when politicians tell people that there are elites out to get you and adovate the creation of a soak-the-rich policy. Edwards' Two Americas mythology is probably the most stark example. But populism is one of those very slippery concepts; Where some see it others see speaking truth etc. There's a famous quote about one man's populism being somebody else's something or other...LOL I'm too tired and it's too late to look up now.

[greggsand]

There were many great lines in Palin's speech tonight, but I thought this one took the cake:

"Here's how I look at the choice Americans face in this election. In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change."

Yeah, whoever wrote that for her rules...

[FatPitcher]

There were many great lines in Palin's speech tonight, but I thought this one took the cake:

"Here's how I look at the choice Americans face in this election. In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change."

Yeah, whoever wrote that for her rules...

Aside from the complete "WTF? Are you seriously that ignorant about speechwriters?" aspect of this line of attack, the irony of this being a mindlessly repeated "talking point" is delicious.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Biden's had a few issues with his speechwriting in the past

[Jackdog]

Palin is a tougher cookie than I thought. She also has genuine quality about her that I like. She seems about as "real folks" as a politician can get. That resonates with me.

But I do find three things odd about the Republicans' day today.

One, they insist on the media keeping the Palin children off-limits. Yet who was waiting at the base of the McCain jet this afternoon to greet the presidential nominee for a carefully orchestrated group hug and photo op? The entire Palin brood, including the father of Bristol's baby, Levi Johnston.

Note to GOP: You simply can't have it both ways, especially 48 hours after you called the kids off limits to the media.

I saw the same thing at the DNC. I see nothing wrong with introducing your family at the conventions. Biden and Obama did it. I do think it's wrong for the media to go after kids of any of the candidates.

Two, how many times must we hear that John McCain is a "good man, an honorable man, a decent man?" How does that qualify him to be president? It seems that the GOP just can't let go of the Mount Rushmore/ movie star visage of Ronald Reagan, of what a president should be.

We know McCain was a POW; we know he's a good man. But how the f*ck does that qualify him to be the Chief Executive of this nation? It just seems very odd that McCain has a solid record of achievement in Congress, but the GOP is just glossing it over at this convention to paint McCain as a "good man, a hero."

It's the RNC man. Who are they supposed to talk about? How he told Harry Reid to "f*** off"?

Finally, it's fascinating to see how much the worm has turned in message between the two parties in just four years.

In 2004, the Democrats ran with a platform of "We're not them!" against the GOP and lost. But it seems like that's the exact platform of the GOP this year even though they are the party in control of the White House.

I know Bush is very unpopular, but doesn't the GOP realize that the Democrats don't occupy the Oval Office and have been incredibly ineffective since taking control of the Congress in 2006 under Pelosi?

The GOP just seems to be running such a reactionary campaign, almost identical to the losing strategy of the Democrats in 2004. It almost seems like they're the challengers to the incumbency.

So very odd. So very fascinating.

Oh, one flippant observation: Levi Johnston looked thrilled to bits to be there. Kid must be thinking: "What the f*ck? Last Thursday night I was dipping Skoal, eating moose jerky, playing NHL 08 and drinking a Bud Light with my boys. Now this sh*t one week later? Oh, f*ck."

Take care,
PK

Levi looked tight as a drum.

[JRod]

Palin is a tougher cookie than I thought. She also has genuine quality about her that I like. She seems about as "real folks" as a politician can get. That resonates with me.

But I do find three things odd about the Republicans' day today.

One, they insist on the media keeping the Palin children off-limits. Yet who was waiting at the base of the McCain jet this afternoon to greet the presidential nominee for a carefully orchestrated group hug and photo op? The entire Palin brood, including the father of Bristol's baby, Levi Johnston.

Note to GOP: You simply can't have it both ways, especially 48 hours after you called the kids off limits to the media.

I saw the same thing at the DNC. I see knothing wrong with introducing your family at the conventions. Biden and Obama did it. I do think it's wrong for the media to go after kids of any of the candidates.

[/quote]


Except she was a bit hypocritical. She said her daughter is off-limits. That's fine and I agree. I disagree that the mainstream media went after her daughter. The talking heads did. But I didn't read on NYT they called her a whore or something. They just reported her daughter was pregnant, which the campaign released a press release confirming. The bloggers did go overboard.


Here's my point. It's not okay to go after your daughter, but it is okay use their son, who's will be going to Iraq.

That's using your children for political benefit. Granted Biden did the same thing but I find it hypocritical because McCain/Palin said the family is off-limits. Doesn't that also apply for all children.

[JRod]

Oh the mocking of the community organizer is going to bite them in the ass. If played right, I think the Obama campaign can use that to urban voters to say that the Republicans are mocking those that do that line of work.

It's a weak argument that sounds elitist. Though what does that say about the Republican base when they mock without subtleties a lawyer that worked on local issues.

Could you imagine if Obama mocked PTA moms?

[F308GTB]

Oh the mocking of the community organizer is going to bite them in the ass. If played right, I think the Obama campaign can use that to urban voters to say that the Republicans are mocking those that do that line of work.

It's a weak argument that sounds elitist. Though what does that say about the Republican base when they mock without subtleties a lawyer that worked on local issues.

Could you imagine if Obama mocked PTA moms?

Except there are plenty more PTA moms than "community organizers." The slam worked IMO. The majority of the public can associate with PTA moms. What the heck is a "community organizer" anyway?

Do you think they are really concerned about urban voters that could be turned off by the comment? I bet most of the urban voters in places like Chicago, New York, LA, Detroit, etc, already had their ballots marked for Obama. This is a fight for the suburbs and beyond where the majority of Americans live.

[fsquid]

I was about to say, the urban places are already democratic as it is.

[Jackdog]

Oh the mocking of the community organizer is going to bite them in the ass. If played right, I think the Obama campaign can use that to urban voters to say that the Republicans are mocking those that do that line of work.

It's a weak argument that sounds elitist. Though what does that say about the Republican base when they mock without subtleties a lawyer that worked on local issues.

Could you imagine if Obama mocked PTA moms?

The Obama campaign's Bill Burton issued this statement on the selection of Sarah Palin:

"Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency.

"Governor Palin shares John McCain's commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade, the agenda of Big Oil and continuing George Bush's failed economic policies - that's not the change we need, it's just more of the same."

Turnabout is fair play. Obama's people went after her experience. She punched back. Politics. By the way,the PTA doesn't stage protests. Big difference.

As far as introducing her family. It's a moment in American history and she has every right bring her family to the RNC. If not she would have been accused of hiding them. Speaking of hypocrisy. How fair is it of anyone to question her career and family? I don't think that's ever been an issue with a male candidate. Talk about elitism.

John,to be clear I am not calling you an elitist.

[pk500]

Jack-diggity, Rob:

I have no problem with the kids appearing at the convention hall and on stage after their mother's speech. It was the crowning moment of her career, and it's nice that they can witness and share it.

But the photo op at the base of McCain's plane was cheap. Remember, this was McCain's plane, not the Palin family's. I just found it quite rich for the GOP to insist that the Palin kids were off-limits yet they have no problem trotting them out to greet a plane for the sole reason of a good, family-values photo.

It's also a matter of timing. If the GOP cried hands-off on the Palin brood two weeks ago, this is no biggie. But just 48 hours afterward? Pretty rich.

Not a big deal, either way. Just a small observation.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

John:

Damn good point about using Track Palin for political gain. And I don't want to hear the "He's an adult; she's not" excuse from the GOP. He's 19; Bristol is 17. Big deal.

James:

Yep, I agree with you about the effectiveness of ripping community organizers.

Until Obama started running for president, I had no idea what that role entailed. When I heard the occupation "community organizer," visions of Stokley Carmichael and Eldridge Cleaver entered my head. Seriously.

Take care,
PK

[Slumberland]

She's clearly a bit of a superstar... sad to see this descending into culture war bullcrap, charges of elitism both ways, and so on, but not surprised, I guess? Obama using McCain's "5 million dollars a year" comment against him sucked too, as it was clearly a joke if you saw McCain say it. My problem is that I don't have much reason to believe she's honest about fiscal conservatism. Too early to say conclusively but there seems to be evidence that budgets swelled in both her mayoral and gubernatorial (I love that word) posts, that earmarks were sought after, including one that McCain himself singled out as an example of pork a couple years back. Anyone know anything about this?

[pk500]

One final thing that struck me last night: Both parties are spending an awful lot of money to try and sway a very small amount of voters.

The American electorate is balkanized like never before. We are a nation of idealogues, not of people who care about specifics. We have "red" and "blue" states, people who vote for "values" or "change" without having a clue about the specifics that their candidate will use to put those slogans into reality.

Fact is, there is only a small percentage of the electorate who will change their vote, and I wonder how many undecideds there really are. But this will be a tight race, so that small pool should be pivotal.

Palin could have climbed to that podium last night and said she thought JFK was a great president, and that alabaster sea of bobbing heads on the floor still would have voted for her because she represents their "values." Obama could have gone to the podium in Denver last Thursday and said he was going to double the military complex created by Reagan at the height of the Cold War, and his disciples still would have cried tears of joy on the floor and said "hosanna" and pulled the lever for him in November.

Why? Because hardly anyone gives a sh*t about issues anymore as long as the slogans are catchy and the sound bites are red-meat juicy. "CHANGE!" "COUNTRY FIRST!"

Try this one, instead: "F*CK ME!"

Take care,
PK

[GTHobbes]

So the Republicans loved Palin, and the Democrats didn't. Big surprise there. As an independent, I thought she read the speech that someone else wrote for her very well. Which is also no surprise, given her past experience as a sportscaster.

Good point about her talking about her son and niece's military involvement. In the law, that's called opening the door.

[Slumberland]

Why? Because hardly anyone gives a sh*t about issues anymore as long as the slogans are catchy and the sound bites are red-meat juicy. "CHANGE!" "COUNTRY FIRST!"

It really is terrible. I don't know how much of the blame can be laid at the feet of 24-hour cable news coverage, but it certainly hasn't helped. Why all 24 of those hours must be filled with navel-gazing pundits that cover the horse race but never fact check is beyond me. It's as if facts don't even exist anymore... just people trying to interject their "clever" slant on the dynamics of the race. And that's only slightly less revolting than when they have campaign advocates and representatives on the air, who are paid specifically not to have a substantive conversation so much as recite the points of that day's memo.

I watch PBS. At least they show the speeches. Even though David Brooks gives me the willies and Mark Shields looks like a melting marshmallow (not pretty in HD).

[JRod]

Oh the mocking of the community organizer is going to bite them in the ass. If played right, I think the Obama campaign can use that to urban voters to say that the Republicans are mocking those that do that line of work.

It's a weak argument that sounds elitist. Though what does that say about the Republican base when they mock without subtleties a lawyer that worked on local issues.

Could you imagine if Obama mocked PTA moms?

Except there are plenty more PTA moms than "community organizers." The slam worked IMO. The majority of the public can associate with PTA moms. What the heck is a "community organizer" anyway?

Do you think they are really concerned about urban voters that could be turned off by the comment? I bet most of the urban voters in places like Chicago, New York, LA, Detroit, etc, already had their ballots marked for Obama. This is a fight for the suburbs and beyond where the majority of Americans live.

Do you guys read anymore?

I said, if played right. I'm not defending Obama's work experience and his role as a community organizer. Let's take his resume at face value and as a lawyer, he worked to help those who lost their jobs in Chicago and did other things with the inner city poor. That attack sounded like the old republican dispondent party. Oh well we don't care about the poor.

If Obama can spin it right, I think there's an advantage for him.


Jack:
I'm very tired of the experience debate.

McCain does not have any executive experience in the last 20 years.
Obama does not have any executive experience.
Biden does not have any executive experience.
Palin only has 1.5 years of governor experience.

So with four people we have a total of 1.5 years in an executive role. In terms of total public experience Palin is at the bottom of the bunch.

Now that's quite a scorecard. One side cannot argue experience or lack of on the other side. If McCain does it either brings up his lack of executive experience or Palin's 1.5 years in a statewide office. If Obama does it bring up his 2 years on the national stage.

Sides could argue content of experience Biden and McCain have strong foriegn policy experience. Neither side has any real domestic experience.

[webdanzer]

I watch PBS. At least they show the speeches. Even though David Brooks gives me the willies and Mark Shields looks like a melting marshmallow (not pretty in HD).

I always flip around, but ended up primarily on PBS too. There was some interesting post-speech stuff on CNN though. Decent debate on the sexism issue, etc.

[JRod]

Err I meant to say, I'm very tired of the experience debate if the media and the candidate focus on that from now until the end of the election.

[XXXIV]

Im tired of the experience debate too.

Obama and Palin dont have it.


End of story....you think either one has REAL experience? ...PURE BIAS!

[RobVarak]

So the Republicans loved Palin, and the Democrats didn't. Big surprise there. As an independent, I thought she read the speech that someone else wrote for her very well. Which is also no surprise, given her past experience as a sportscaster.

Dude, you do realize that it's probably been 50 years since a politician read a speech that he or she wrote more than 2% of right? I'm only asking because apparently the Obama campaign is expeting the pupblic to be ignorant of that fact.

[pk500]

The only guy I like on the 24-hour news networks is Chuck Todd of MSNBC. Guy seems to be a student and fan of politics, not of either party, and I think he tries to keep his coverage pretty balanced.

The rest are partisan jokes.

Take care,
PK

[webdanzer]

The only guy I like on the 24-hour news networks is Chuck Todd of MSNBC. Guy seems to be a student and fan of politics, not of either party, and I think he tries to keep his coverage pretty balanced.

The rest are partisan jokes.

Take care,
PK

I missed Russert again last night for sure.

[RobVarak]

.

Why? Because hardly anyone gives a sh*t about issues anymore as long as the slogans are catchy and the sound bites are red-meat juicy. "CHANGE!" "COUNTRY FIRST!"

Try this one, instead: "F*CK ME!"

Take care,
PK

Man, that is one enormous windmill to tilt against.

Tippecanoe and Tyler Too
54-40 or Fight
Don't Swap Horses
He Kept Us Out of War
A Chicken in Every Pot
I Like Ike
In Your Heart You Know He's Right
A New Frontier
Morning In America
Building A Bridge To the 21st. C.

And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head! Harrison was 1840, and I'm quite sure that some farmer leaned over his fence and told his neighbor, "People just don't care about the issues anymore!"

One final thing that struck me last night: Both parties are spending an awful lot of money to try and sway a very small amount of voters.

Well that's been the case for at least 8 years, and probably longer. Keep in mind that Clinton was elected with less than a majority. Then you have the 2000 election...

A narrowly divided electorate isn't the end of the world. It's an election year, always the time when people start to bemoan the lack of unity. People focus too much on the issues that divide us instead of the disdain for politicians that unites us

[Jackdog]

The only guy I like on the 24-hour news networks is Chuck Todd of MSNBC. Guy seems to be a student and fan of politics, not of either party, and I think he tries to keep his coverage pretty balanced.

The rest are partisan jokes.

Take care,
PK

Bullshit! Willie is the best!!!!