OT: Finally...A Worthwhile MP3 Player (really long)

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:36 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:My Shure E2s were absolute garbage with it, whereas they were pretty good with the rest of the players I used.

Absolutely they suck with the ipod. Tried a pair and could not return them fast enough. Getting ready to try out the new Bose in ear plugs pretty soon for my daily walking routine. If they are comparable to my Bose QC2's, then I will be a happy camper.....

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:37 pm

I didn't actually get quotes directly.

But the honda.com site has a link to accessories which goes to another site where you have to select dealers in your area.

That is where those prices came up. Honda or Acura, the dealers here are charging.

I don't imagine BMW dealers to be any better.

Well you had to pay for the head unit.

That's an option, just get an aftermarket head unit with an Aux jack for like $100-120 bucks at Best Buy. Not as nice a setup but it does the job.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:30 pm

wco81 wrote:The dealers who sell and install those are all over the map, charging $250-400 just for the kit and then another couple of hundred to install.

Yep. I went to my BMW dealership and asked them about the iPod kit (that gets hardwired directly to the audio system, and charges the iPod, allowing for steering wheel & Idrive control, and track listing, etc... on the Idrive screen), and it was like $350.

No way, no thanks. The AUX in jack in my center console came standard, and I'll continue to use that with any old MP3 player I want. Of course, I give up steering wheel control, but I've been plugging in my MP3 player (previously, my phone, which had 512mb of MP3 storage) and just doing a shuffled playlist. The pain is when I need a specific song, but I usually wait until I hit a traffic light and then fumble for it.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:38 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:My Shure E2s were absolute garbage with it, whereas they were pretty good with the rest of the players I used.
Absolutely they suck with the ipod. Tried a pair and could not return them fast enough. Getting ready to try out the new Bose in ear plugs pretty soon for my daily walking routine. If they are comparable to my Bose QC2's, then I will be a happy camper.....

Don't bother. Horrible highs...nice bass though. I love the tri-port over the ears...but the in ears...just don't like em. They don't sound all that great outside of the bass and they also do not fit in the ear very well. They aren't IN-EARS like the rest of the headphones out there...they kinda sit on the edge of your ear canal. They ALWAYS feel like they are going to fall out. I tried those and the new Sony ex90s...and neither were as good as the Sennheiser CX300s that I got for 60 bucks on Amazon. Go that route...seriously.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:56 pm

I'm pretty happy with the e2cs on my mini, although I only use those at the gym and on the bus -- shift over to some Sony's at work. The Shure's with the foam are one of the few in-ear that will stay put when I work out and still sound decent, and I just replace the sleeves every few months.

With the in-car iPod setup, it is about $400 for the Volvo placement, which I decided against. I use the FM broadcast adapter, which works well because of where I live. It's like having a radio station out of your iPod, which is fine for me most of the time.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:15 pm

Well, I got my Zune today and I am very happy so far. Keep in mind, I am by no means a super-experienced user. I have never had an IPod (my 5 gb Creative Zen Micro recently died) so maybe I'm easily impressed. I got the black one which seems more of a charcoal color. I like it.

First off, the sound quality is nice. I am not too picky in this area. Sounds just as good as my Zen Micro did. The standard earbuds you get are fine but I'm sure higher grade ones will make a difference. As far as being "clunky", which is what some reviews are saying - bullshit. Its a bit thicker than the 30gb IPod but not by much. It feels lighter than the IPod also. The interface is pretty damn slick. Simple and easy to navigate. The 3 in. screen is wicked. Whenever you goto a picture or video it automatically goes to landscape so you just turn the Zune on its side...cool. Oh, and the volume controls also "rotate" when you rotate the Zune for pics/video. Picture and video quality is super. All of my album covers look very sharp on the screen. It came preloaded with a number of music videos and pics. I deleted them already...but they were nice quality. I plan on loading up some MPEG4 files later to see what the performance is like. Perhaps "Weird Science"

I didn't download any music from the Zune Marketplace yet but I will soon. I purchased 1200 points ($15.00). If you have an Xbox Live account that is linked to a Windows Live account you can EASILY set that as your default account...very nice. I can use the points I bought with my Zune or the 360

If anyone has questions feel free to fire away.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:57 pm

Diablo,

Does it have a FM tuner? I checked out a couple cool videos of it on youtube.com. I love the feature of being able to share music and pictures, along with the widescreen display.

Thanks.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:18 am

sportdan30 wrote:Diablo,

Does it have a FM tuner? I checked out a couple cool videos of it on youtube.com. I love the feature of being able to share music and pictures, along with the widescreen display.

Thanks.

Yeah, it has an FM tuner. It actually has decent reception...I live in the middle of nowhere and I got some stations. A Zune forum I have been posting at has some rave reviews of the FM reception.

Badgun · Post by **Badgun** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:38 am

Diablo25 wrote:Well, I got my Zune today and I am very happy so far. Keep in mind, I am by no means a super-experienced user. I have never had an IPod (my 5 gb Creative Zen Micro recently died) so maybe I'm easily impressed. I got the black one which seems more of a charcoal color. I like it.

First off, the sound quality is nice. I am not too picky in this area. Sounds just as good as my Zen Micro did. The standard earbuds you get are fine but I'm sure higher grade ones will make a difference. As far as being "clunky", which is what some reviews are saying - bullshit. Its a bit thicker than the 30gb IPod but not by much. It feels lighter than the IPod also. The interface is pretty damn slick. Simple and easy to navigate. The 3 in. screen is wicked. Whenever you goto a picture or video it automatically goes to landscape so you just turn the Zune on its side...cool. Oh, and the volume controls also "rotate" when you rotate the Zune for pics/video. Picture and video quality is super. All of my album covers look very sharp on the screen. It came preloaded with a number of music videos and pics. I deleted them already...but they were nice quality. I plan on loading up some MPEG4 files later to see what the performance is like. Perhaps "Weird Science"

I didn't download any music from the Zune Marketplace yet but I will soon. I purchased 1200 points ($15.00). If you have an Xbox Live account that is linked to a Windows Live account you can EASILY set that as your default account...very nice. I can use the points I bought with my Zune or the 360

If anyone has questions feel free to fire away.

I got mine today, too. I'm not crazy about the marketplace because they don't have a fraction of the artists Itunes has, but I heard it will be growing soo.

As for the player itself, I'm very impressed so far. As the owner of a 60 gig Ipod and a 30 gig Creative Vision M, I have to say Microsoft has done themselves proud. A lot easier to navigate than either of the other two and I don't have to worry about getting fingerprints all over it everytime I touch it. It's only slightly bigger than my Vision M, but that doesn't bother me. Any negatives that it might have are offset by the much bigger screen and easy to navigate interface. Also, it works quite well with the 360 and I like the idea of being able to stream video to it from the Zune.

The one feature I thought they said it had but I can't find is the cross fade feature. My Rio Karma had that and I loved it. Maybe I'm missing something.

All

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:55 am

Does it have a line out (Aux) jack so you can plug it into a car or home stereo?

Do you have to use their software to transfer files? The great thing about my Archos is that it looks just like another hard drive to my PC, so I can use File Explorer to transfer files.

This just may end up being my Christmas present from the wife

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:26 am

matthewk wrote:Does it have a line out (Aux) jack so you can plug it into a car or home stereo?

Just an FYI -- you don't need a line-out jack to connect it to your stereo. Radio Shack sells a gold-tipped cable for around $8 that plugs into the headphone jack of an MP3 player and into the audio jacks of any home stereo component. That's what I have used with my home stereo for the last three or four years with both my Archos and Creative.

Don't know about the car stereo hookup, as I'm in a car less than an hour per week most weeks.

Take care,
PK

Badgun · Post by **Badgun** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:46 am

matthewk wrote:Does it have a line out (Aux) jack so you can plug it into a car or home stereo?

Do you have to use their software to transfer files? The great thing about my Archos is that it looks just like another hard drive to my PC, so I can use File Explorer to transfer files.

This just may end up being my Christmas present from the wife

Actually, I'm 99.9% sure I read that you can use Windows Explorer to drag and drop files onto the device. I think the device has 3 folders when viewing it in Explorer, Music, Video, and Photos. Just drop the files in the right folder and you are good to go.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:47 am

You just get a cable with the same sized plug as your earphones.

I paid like $5-6 for a 6-foot one at Radio Shack.

You should be able to use the Aux input with any player. Even old Walkmans and Discmans too.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:25 am

matthewk wrote:Does it have a line out (Aux) jack so you can plug it into a car or home stereo?

Do you have to use their software to transfer files? The great thing about my Archos is that it looks just like another hard drive to my PC, so I can use File Explorer to transfer files.

This just may end up being my Christmas present from the wife

As far as the software, yes and no. You must buy and download protected music from the "Zune Marketplace"...ie. you can't use ITunes or Napster. As far as other unprotected files you may already have...I think you can transfer those with other software, but I'm not positive.

You can buy an add on accessory that allows you to plug in to your home stereo. I think its call the Home AV Kit. As far as the car, MS has an FM transmitter attachment available. I'm sure there will eventually be a hard wire attachment if your car stereo allows it.

You can see the available accessories at http://www.zune.net

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:34 am

The Monster cables listed on the Zune site to connect the Zune to a home stereo are $30 -- typically overpriced Monster products.

The Radio Shack cable that WCO and I mentioned does just as good a job for $8 or less.

Take care,
PK

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:38 am

pk500 wrote:
matthewk wrote:Does it have a line out (Aux) jack so you can plug it into a car or home stereo?
Just an FYI -- you don't need a line-out jack to connect it to your stereo. Radio Shack sells a gold-tipped cable for around $8 that plugs into the headphone jack of an MP3 player and into the audio jacks of any home stereo component. That's what I have used with my home stereo for the last three or four years with both my Archos and Creative.

Don't know about the car stereo hookup, as I'm in a car less than an hour per week most weeks.

Take care,
PK

This is a good way to make the compressed music sound even worse. If you have an aux out, or line out, it will bypass the processing of the MP3 player. A headphone jack is an acceptable compromise, but it means you are adding another layer of filtering to the final sound. It is audibly different in most cases.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:52 am

Bypass the processing?

An Aux or line out in a player will still be an analog signal. So it will be downstream of the DAC.

Maybe the only advantage over the headphone jack would be that it would be free of the distortion introduced by the amplification for the headphone jack.

But the main processing has already been done in the DAC.

Now I have a Logitech MM50 speaker dock which I can hook up through the dock connector or via an Aux In jack at the back. I haven't done the latter but I guess I could try it and compare.

One thing I notice when using headphones or the Aux In in my car stereo is that when I plug it in, if the stereo is on or I have the headphones on, I could hear a click or pop as I plug the jack in. So there is not as much shielding and that route introduces some noise.

But I really hear no difference in sound between the MM50 using the dock versus the Aux-In jack. I do have some nicer headphones and those sound fine.

Of course, listening in a car isn't going to show the details unless you really turn up the volume or you play with the engine not running.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:11 pm

wco81 wrote:Bypass the processing?

An Aux or line out in a player will still be an analog signal. So it will be downstream of the DAC.

Maybe the only advantage over the headphone jack would be that it would be free of the distortion introduced by the amplification for the headphone jack.

But the main processing has already been done in the DAC.

Since I was discussing the headphone out I thought it clear I was discussing the additional processing necessary for the headphone circuits. I'm sorry if that was unclear. The main processing is done in either case.

wco81 wrote:Now I have a Logitech MM50 speaker dock which I can hook up through the dock connector or via an Aux In jack at the back. I haven't done the latter but I guess I could try it and compare.
...
But I really hear no difference in sound between the MM50 using the dock versus the Aux-In jack.

The dock in the MM50 should sound roughly or exactly the same as using the aux in, as the only processing done by the MP3 player is the decoding, not any EQ or volume adjustment that is used for the headphone out. Any difference would be if the MM50 does not use the same circuitry for both inputs, which would be surprising. In my experience with three or four different MP3 players, the headphone jack does add both "noise" from the jack and distortion from the amplification/equalization when compared directly to line out.

But complaining about audio quality of compressed music is kind of sad, so I think I'll step back a bit. Sometimes my curmudgeonly anal ways get the best of me. Such is life.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:31 pm

True about compressed lossy audio.

Yet there are "audiophile" brands putting out speaker docks. I think there's one for some Denon receivers and there are even tube-amplified products as well.

The mass market has chosen convenience (of being able to store so much music and other audio content on small devices) over quality. I had some nice stereo gear but to really appreciate it, you have to sit down and position your speakers just so. You find that you're more likely to listen to music on the go, at the gym, in the car, in the office, etc. rather than devoting time to listen on a nice home system.

That is partly why SACD and other higher-quality audio formats didn't go anywhere.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:01 pm

Using the headphone jack as a line out results in a crappy sound, at least with the Archos. A dedicated Line out jack works much better, for reasons EZ alluded to.

So does the Zune have a line out jack or not? I'm still not sure. I don't care about accessories or cables, I have those. I just want to know if the hardware is equipped for the way I want to use it.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:05 pm

Can the Zune be used with other AV devices...yes. Is it equipt out of the box - No. You need to pick up the proper accessory. I have linked the Zune AV Home Kit below. In the pics you can see the AV jack that fits right into the Zune so it will connect with your device.

http://www.zune.net/en-us/accessories/z ... vpack.htm#

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:06 pm

That's what I was afraid of. No seperate Line Out jack, you just use the headphone as one. I'll have to look for impressions on using it this way, as my experiences with using a phone jack as a line out is not good.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:22 pm

matthewk wrote:That's what I was afraid of. No seperate Line Out jack, you just use the headphone as one. I'll have to look for impressions on using it this way, as my experiences with using a phone jack as a line out is not good.

What is really funny is that the Sony player at the beginning of this thread only had a headphone jack...but in the software, you could change it over to a "line-out" jack. So you had one plug, but the software decided how to use it. That is genius.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:44 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
matthewk wrote:That's what I was afraid of. No seperate Line Out jack, you just use the headphone as one. I'll have to look for impressions on using it this way, as my experiences with using a phone jack as a line out is not good.
What is really funny is that the Sony player at the beginning of this thread only had a headphone jack...but in the software, you could change it over to a "line-out" jack. So you had one plug, but the software decided how to use it. That is genius.

Man, that is a very cool feature.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:05 pm

Hmm I'll have to see if there are reviews which measure the differences between line out and headphone jack. Like I said, maybe more noise so that would show up in S/N. But frequency response should be similar.

If headphone jacks are so bad, there would be no market for expensive earphones like the Bose QC, the expensive Shure and Ultimate Ears, etc.

BTW, good detailed review of the Zune on Engadget.