The Mitchell Report

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:13 pm

Gene Wojo from ESPN.com splinters Clemens' balsa-wood defense pretty well in this column:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... ortCat=mlb

Take care,
PK

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:33 pm

If Pettitte does testify in front of Congress, I hope he's a real stand-up guy about it. His coming out days after the Mitchell Report and confirming his use of PEDs shows that he has integrity. Can't say whether I believe him that he only used them on a couple of occasions, but that story certainly has credit (in a similar vain, Frankie Andreu in the cycling world came out last year to say he made a mistake in using PEDs one time in his cycling career and hated himself for it). I'm not a Bible thumper, but Pettitte has a reputation around here (he grew up in Deer Park, just outside Houston) as a "solid Christian." He's been known to have high morals, which made his bolt from the Astros to the Yankees last off-season a difficult pill to swallow for Houstonians.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:48 am

F308GTB wrote:If Pettitte does testify in front of Congress, I hope he's a real stand-up guy about it. His coming out days after the Mitchell Report and confirming his use of PEDs shows that he has integrity.

How can he have integrity after he knowingly cheated? The only reason he came clean is because he got called on out it.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:54 am

matthewk wrote:
F308GTB wrote:If Pettitte does testify in front of Congress, I hope he's a real stand-up guy about it. His coming out days after the Mitchell Report and confirming his use of PEDs shows that he has integrity.
How can he have integrity after he knowingly cheated? The only reason he came clean is because he got called on out it.

How many other players got called out? How many made an admission? Sure you get a strike against you for cheating, but it shows at least some character to fess up and not continue the charade. At least he didn't pull some sort of flaxseed defense.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 am

pk500 wrote:The "I don't give a rat's ass about the Hall of Fame" remark during the press conference today also showed what an arrogant jackass this clown is, too.

Give the poor guy a break. He was obviously suffering from an attack of 'roid rage at the time he made that statement.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:16 am

matthewk wrote:
pk500 wrote:The "I don't give a rat's ass about the Hall of Fame" remark during the press conference today also showed what an arrogant jackass this clown is, too.
Give the poor guy a break. He was obviously suffering from an attack of 'roid rage at the time he made that statement.

Then again, if McNamee was indeed lying to CYA and not go to jail, how can you blame Clemens for NOT being PO'd about having his reputation ruined by false allegations? After listening to that phone conversation between the two, my opinion has changed regarding this issue dramatically.....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:44 am

DivotMaker wrote:Then again, if McNamee was indeed lying to CYA and not go to jail, how can you blame Clemens for NOT being PO'd about having his reputation ruined by false allegations? After listening to that phone conversation between the two, my opinion has changed regarding this issue dramatically.....

I don't understand how McNamee was playing CYA to avoid jail time. The Feds said, "Tell the truth, and you won't go to jail." They didn't say, "Tell us Clemens was using HGH and 'roids, and you won't go to jail."

Clemens' lack of anger -- hell, his outright calm -- in the call only implicates him further, in my eyes. It was a complete setup of McNamee, a ploy devised by Rusty Hardin to use at the press conference Monday.

Seriously, if you were speaking with the guy who possibly ruined your reputation for the first time since the allegations surfaced, wouldn't you be just a touch hot on the phone, especially when that guy started to get exasperated and say, "What the f*ck do you want me to do?"

It's not like Clemens has this reputation for a placid demeanor, either. Just ask Mike Piazza.

Take care,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:54 am

Let me hear the phone conversation where neither guy knows it's being taped. IMO Clemens is implicating himself even more. Too bad he can't get Johnnie Cochran to represent him. I can see Johnnie pulling out an oversized baseball cap and saying "If the the hat doesn't fit you must acquit."

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:23 am

pk500 wrote:
DivotMaker wrote:Then again, if McNamee was indeed lying to CYA and not go to jail, how can you blame Clemens for NOT being PO'd about having his reputation ruined by false allegations? After listening to that phone conversation between the two, my opinion has changed regarding this issue dramatically.....
I don't understand how McNamee was playing CYA to avoid jail time. The Feds said, "Tell the truth, and you won't go to jail." They didn't say, "Tell us Clemens was using HGH and 'roids, and you won't go to jail."

Clemens' lack of anger -- hell, his outright calm -- in the call only implicates him further, in my eyes. It was a complete setup of McNamee, a ploy devised by Rusty Hardin to use at the press conference Monday.

Seriously, if you were speaking with the guy who possibly ruined your reputation for the first time since the allegations surfaced, wouldn't you be just a touch hot on the phone, especially when that guy started to get exasperated and say, "What the f*ck do you want me to do?"

It's not like Clemens has this reputation for a placid demeanor, either. Just ask Mike Piazza.

Take care,
PK

I guess we'll simply agree to disagree for now. I believe McNamee was and is in a "no win" situation regardless of what he says. At the end of the day, we will probably never have the true story since lawyers and extreme emotions are involved....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:24 am

ScoopBrady wrote:Let me hear the phone conversation where neither guy knows it's being taped. IMO Clemens is implicating himself even more. Too bad he can't get Johnnie Cochran to represent him. I can see Johnnie pulling out an oversized baseball cap and saying "If the the hat doesn't fit you must acquit."

Jackie Chiles is available!

Take care,
PK

WillHunting · Post by **WillHunting** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:28 am

Did I tell you to put the balm on? Who told you to put the balm on?

TheGamer · Post by **TheGamer** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:17 pm

it appears to me on that phone conversation that McNamee is trying to get a deal from Clemens like Greg Anderson got from Barry Bonds. the "what do you want me to do?" and "I'll go to jail for you" on top of the being sequestered in a "one room motel to avoid the media" and his kid being sick, he is trying to strike a deal from Clemens to change his story and cover up for him.

I think Clemens is dirty as hell and is going to protest as long as he can just like Pete Rose did and Marion Jones.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:33 pm

Another thing that implicates Clemens' guilt to me is how he has, in his lawyer-issued statements and in the "60 Minutes" interview, tried to use his "service to baseball" and his legendary accomplishments as a defense.

I'm sick of hearing Clemens say, paraphrasing, "You'd think after all my years in the game and all I've accomplished in the game that people would cut me some slack."

Read between the lines: That's an incredibly arrogant Clemens saying, "I'm ROGER F*CKING CLEMENS, DAMN IT. HOW DARE YOU EVEN SAY I USED 'ROIDS? I'M ABOVE PROSECUTION AND PERSECUTION BECAUSE I'M ROGER F*CKING CLEMENS, DAMN IT!"

It shouldn't matter whether you're possibly the greatest right-handed pitcher ever or if you're a guy who got a cup of coffee in the bigs for one summer. If you used 'roids or HGH, you're dirty.

Take care,
PK

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:34 pm

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... all-4.html

If this is true and not just spin, pretty scummy:

McNamee's attorneys say the former Yankee strength and conditioning coach reached out to the Rocket on Friday because he thought his ill 10-year-old son - a big Clemens fan - would respond to a phone call from his hero. Instead, they say, Clemens used McNamee's vulnerability to attack the trainer, whom he once credited with extending his 24-year career, during an angry news conference yesterday.

"He's angry that the information about his son was manipulated in that fashion," said Earl Ward, another McNamee attorney. "The original text message to Roger said, 'My son is sick, can you call him at home?' Brian was not even living there. He had no intention of talking to Clemens. (Clemens) never did call his son."

Also:

McNamee's attorneys said Clemens lied when he told "60 Minutes" interviewer Mike Wallace that he didn't know that McNamee was the source of the allegations against him in the Mitchell Report.

Clemens and longtime teammate Andy Pettitte, another McNamee client named as a user in the Mitchell Report, hired attorneys and private investigators to discredit McNamee before the report was even released. Ward provided affidavits signed by Clemens and Pettitte that identify two private eyes as employees of law firm representing the pitchers.

Sounds like if Clemens continues to fight back, McNamee has some evidence with which to fight back.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:44 pm

I am really torn about this issue. I guess my problem with the phone call is why didn't Clemens just come out and say: "Why the hell did you lie about me?"

I also don't understand why Clemens waited this long. If someone lied about me, I would not wait until after the holidays to make a statement. Did Clemens have a honeydo list that he needed to finish before he could call a press conference? "Sorry, can't talk now. I gotta find a Wii for my nephew and finish putting up the Christmas lights. I will talk to you after the first of the year and then I will clear my good name."

But on the other hand, if I was a professional athlete, there is no way I would just consent to testing without a fight. If news of a false positive came out, it would be virtually impossible to clear your name. For that, we can thank the Marion Jones who stood up and angry denied the truth, as well as all of the "I did it once and hated it" or "I did not cheat, I did it to get better so my employer would get his money's worth." comments.

Because of our well-earned cynical lack of trust, an accusation is going to be a weight around the neck of the accused, no matter how feeble evidence or how unreliable the accuser.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:06 pm

kevinpars wrote:I am really torn about this issue. I guess my problem with the phone call is why didn't Clemens just come out and say: "Why the hell did you lie about me?"

Because he didn't lie, I assume. It's clear MacNamee's broken up about all this, so much so that his "what do you want me to do" refrain imples that he was willing to say he was lying if Clemens would have asked him too, but Clemens could only spout that he wanted MacNamee to come down there and do that after the fact, but not on the phone. Clemens is being so evasive, and the dude's not that good at it.

Reporter: Why didn't you tell him to admit he was lying?

Clemens: I wish he'd come down here right now and say that.

...or something to that effect, point being that he didn't answer the question. And that whole exchange about where he got the lidocaine shot, where he was saying lower back and then almost slipped and said upper buttocks, but then caught himself, so f*cking weird.

I say innocent until proven guilty, but Roger and his legal team seem to be making the case against themselves

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:21 pm

McNamee's lawyer claims that Clemens made the recorded phone call to McNamee with his lawyer, Rusty Hardin, present in the room.

If that's true, that's the lowest of the low -- answering an e-mail about a sick 10-year-old kid with a lawyered, taped phone call.

Take care,
PK

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:15 pm

pk500 wrote:McNamee's lawyer claims that Clemens made the recorded phone call to McNamee with his lawyer, Rusty Hardin, present in the room.

If that's true, that's the lowest of the low -- answering an e-mail about a sick 10-year-old kid with a lawyered, taped phone call.

Take care,
PK

I think Clemens confirmed in the press conference yesterday that Hardin was in the room during the conversation. I think that's pretty low but if Clemens is telling the truth and McNamee did lie about Clemens and steroids, then I would have no problem with dirty tactics in retaliation.

So, with the filing of a defamation suit, can Clemens refuse to answer questions posed by Congress on the 16th based on the fact that there is an ongoing legal dispute?

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:53 pm

spooky157 wrote:I think Clemens confirmed in the press conference yesterday that Hardin was in the room during the conversation. I think that's pretty low but if Clemens is telling the truth and McNamee did lie about Clemens and steroids, then I would have no problem with dirty tactics in retaliation.

Pretty much what my thinking is on this topic.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:40 pm

pk500 wrote:Gene Wojo from ESPN.com splinters Clemens' balsa-wood defense pretty well in this column:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... ortCat=mlb

Take care,
PK

Dead solid perfect article.

Barry Bonds is doing a dance right about now with Roger taking all of the recent heat, and then telling bold faced lies about it. Unfortunately, Roger will probably deny to his grave because there's no way to prove it otherwise... UNLESS, we have a 3rd party that can back up the trainer's story. It would be great theater if Pettitte knows about Clemens usage of roids or HGH and chooses honesty/intregity in front of Congress over his friendship with Roger, then throws him under the bus. Made for TV movie here we come.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:52 pm

jondiehl wrote:Unfortunately, Roger will probably deny to his grave because there's no way to prove it otherwise... UNLESS, we have a 3rd party that can back up the trainer's story. It would be great theater if Pettitte knows about Clemens usage of roids or HGH and chooses honesty/intregity in front of Congress over his friendship with Roger, then throws him under the bus. Made for TV movie here we come.

IF those two things happen, then I will join others who are flaming Clemens....otherwise, there is NO proof to date other than McNamee's claims and none of us truly know what he was told to say, "or else".....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:08 pm

DivotMaker wrote:IF those two things happen, then I will join others who are flaming Clemens....otherwise, there is NO proof to date other than McNamee's claims and none of us truly know what he was told to say, "or else".....

As a few have said in here, the list of athletes who lied about drug use is a hell of a lot longer than those who claimed innocence and were exonerated.

For a guy who is such a megalomaniac, Clemens' legacy is just as important to him as staying out of jail is to McNamee.

That's what made Clemens' claim that he doesn't give a damn about the Hall of Fame so hilarious. Anyone with an ego the size of Texas -- a perfect fit for Clemens -- cares about his spot in Cooperstown.

Take care,
PK

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:13 pm

There has to be more evidence in order for me to put Clemens on the same level as Bonds. With Bonds there was actual physical evidence from the BALCO investigation. All they have on Clemens is one man's word - a drug dealer and accused rapist. If you're a prosecutor going into court and that is all you have to prove your case then you're not going to win.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:18 pm

This isnt a court of law.

Dont need the same level of evidence.

f*** Clemens that bloated drugged out freak.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:22 pm

pk500 wrote:1. As a few have said in here, the list of athletes who lied about drug use is a hell of a lot longer than those who claimed innocence and were exonerated.

2. For a guy who is such a megalomaniac, Clemens' legacy is just as important to him as staying out of jail is to McNamee.

3. That's what made Clemens' claim that he doesn't give a damn about the Hall of Fame so hilarious. Anyone with an ego the size of Texas -- a perfect fit for Clemens -- cares about his spot in Cooperstown.

Take care,
PK

1. No s***. This will ALWAYS be the case. That being said, if someone is wrongly accused, their reputation is F'd up regardless if they are exonerated. Once the tar brush is used, you can't wipe off the tar no matter what.

2. I don't disagree that Clemens is who he is. However, he sees this as the end of his career and not exactly how he saw this coming down for sure. If he were guilty, I am pretty confident that he would have already taken some actions to minimize the reaction whenever it was revealed. At this point, all he has left is his reputation and legacy. If the allegations are UNTRUE, I fully understand how he feels and I know I would be as PO'd if not more so than he is. If the allegations ARE true, then he has set himself up for one HELLUVA fall from grace. I don't believe he is that stupid.

3. Emotional comment from a guy who is very defensive and PO'd. The comment did not surprise me because the reality is that if his name is NOT cleared, his sure-fire first ballot entry goes down in flames forever. And to be quite frank, his ego is no bigger than many professional athletes of his stature that I have run across personally and I have run across quite a few of them. I can see that we are pretty much polar opposites on this issue......