FIFA 08 (360) Impressions

[RobVarak]

I have to say that while there is a lot that the game does really well there are still problems that put it second to Winning Eleven in terms of realism and variety of play

That very well may be, but after basically gritting my teeth through last year's WE I have to say that it may be second in those categories but it's ahead in FUN.

In my dotage I've lost the stomach to micro-analyze sports games. They're all going to continue to fall short in so many areas that it's a windmill I'd rather not tilt with any longer. I simplified the football discussion this year to NCAA = Fun, Madden = Headache. Having not seen anything but this abyssmal demo from WE, I'm not prepared to do that with soccer...yet. But I will if I have to

[dougb]

Defense is pretty apalling in 2008. It's a combination of the improvement in attacking play of the AI (better runs, better dribbling, killer diagonal passing) and the inability of the defensive players to maintain proper positioning. Defenders playing zone marking continue to follow the ball carrier even when he pulls them out of their zone into another defenders zone. To some extent that should happen from time to time (mistakes, lack of discipline, over agrressiveness - particularly with less capable players). But it happens with alarming regularity even with top defenders.

Best wishes,

Doug

[JRod]

Defense is pretty apalling in 2008. It's a combination of the improvement in attacking play of the AI (better runs, better dribbling, killer diagonal passing) and the inability of the defensive players to maintain proper positioning. Defenders playing zone marking continue to follow the ball carrier even when he pulls them out of their zone into another defenders zone. To some extent that should happen from time to time (mistakes, lack of discipline, over agrressiveness - particularly with less capable players). But it happens with alarming regularity even with top defenders.

Best wishes,

Doug

Well in zone defense the defender is almost always going to run with the guy with the ball. You never see John Terry let off the guy with the ball so another defender can play his "zone". The moment that happens, the offensive player would abuse the defense.

It's not realistic that in FIFA a player can dribble for as long as he can. If Terry was marking say Rooney, Rooney might be able to get around him. But you would see him dribble around the box. Defense would come and help or Terry would cause some sort of disruption.

Anyway, I am going to pay close attention to this week's real games and see how they play zone. But I've never seen zone where the defenders let the guy with the ball go. When they are talking about zone and man marking usually it works like this.

Man marking works like this. Let's say you have Gerrard man mark Ronaldo. Gerrard would play man-to-man the entire game. It doesn't matter where Ronaldo is on the pitch, Gerrard is going to mark him. Zone just means you stay in your position and play the ball as it comes in. You don't switch zones because a defender gets out of your zone.


Rob is 100% right. I am having more fun with FIFA than most games. It does most things right. And the games not too lopsided towards the CPU or hum player. Most anything the CPU can do, the human can do.

There are two areas of concern in manager mode than bother me. One mildly aggrevates me and the other might put a big damper on the manager mode.

The CPU attack could be more creative. It's better and its varied. On World Class they were better but I had to bump it down to Pro. I still lose on pro.

The one thing that really bothers me is the fatigue model for CPU teams. I wish the CPU teams would rotate players or something. Seeing Droga playing every game of the EPL bothers me. I thought in the Master League the CPU rotated players but know I can't remember. In FIFA, the only time a player is subbed is if he's injured. I wish there was sub AI where the CPU teams would field their "B" team in weak cup games, or save their best players for big games.

[dougb]

Defense is pretty apalling in 2008. It's a combination of the improvement in attacking play of the AI (better runs, better dribbling, killer diagonal passing) and the inability of the defensive players to maintain proper positioning. Defenders playing zone marking continue to follow the ball carrier even when he pulls them out of their zone into another defenders zone. To some extent that should happen from time to time (mistakes, lack of discipline, over agrressiveness - particularly with less capable players). But it happens with alarming regularity even with top defenders.

Best wishes,

Doug

Well in zone defense the defender is almost always going to run with the guy with the ball. You never see John Terry let off the guy with the ball so another defender can play his "zone". The moment that happens, the offensive player would abuse the defense.

It's not realistic that in FIFA a player can dribble for as long as he can. If Terry was marking say Rooney, Rooney might be able to get around him. But you would see him dribble around the box. Defense would come and help or Terry would cause some sort of disruption.

Anyway, I am going to pay close attention to this week's real games and see how they play zone. But I've never seen zone where the defenders let the guy with the ball go. When they are talking about zone and man marking usually it works like this.

Man marking works like this. Let's say you have Gerrard man mark Ronaldo. Gerrard would play man-to-man the entire game. It doesn't matter where Ronaldo is on the pitch, Gerrard is going to mark him. Zone just means you stay in your position and play the ball as it comes in. You don't switch zones because a defender gets out of your zone.


Rob is 100% right. I am having more fun with FIFA than most games. It does most things right. And the games not too lopsided towards the CPU or hum player. Most anything the CPU can do, the human can do.

There are two areas of concern in manager mode than bother me. One mildly aggrevates me and the other might put a big damper on the manager mode.

The CPU attack could be more creative. It's better and its varied. On World Class they were better but I had to bump it down to Pro. I still lose on pro.

The one thing that really bothers me is the fatigue model for CPU teams. I wish the CPU teams would rotate players or something. Seeing Droga playing every game of the EPL bothers me. I thought in the Master League the CPU rotated players but know I can't remember. In FIFA, the only time a player is subbed is if he's injured. I wish there was sub AI where the CPU teams would field their "B" team in weak cup games, or save their best players for big games.

Jrod,

With zone marking you will follow the player to some extent - however, the entire point of zone marking is that you cover a section of the field. If you play right center back and are in zone when the attacker moves over to the the opposite side and there is someone covering that zone there then you don't move over so that both centre backs are covering the same zone. That is what I mean by zone defense. And yes Fifa is too strict covering zones but I've seen the bloody centre back in Pro Evo move up the field to take on the midfielder while forwards are standing behind him moving into the space that he's vacated. and that is not on the rush but when the attacking team is passing the ball around the periphery of the box. That's terrible, terrible positional play and if a players does that in my over 35 league (let alone profesional level) they get yelled at.

If you don't like the fatigue model in Fifa wait until you see it in Pro Evo - hopefully it will be fixed for the Winning Eleven version. Good god, two games and players practically need a lung transplant.

Best wishes,

Doug

[Macca00]

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

Do this for me, play last year's WE for the 360 online against randoms with two teams; pick Fulham (since ZaT Knight plays for Fulham in that game) and Chelsea and set the backline to 3 players and set the 'Offside Trap' play to 'A' with the line pushed up - this means that the 3 defenders play a high line and always try the offside trap.

Now see how many breakaways you give up with Chelsea vs. Fulham.

Both Calvalho and Terry have the 'Defensive Line' star while no-one on Fulham has it - so the Fulham guys will try to play the offside trap often and will fail. You DO notice how well they play the line, if you don't believe me just try it, or ask met34 here - he's played more WE than anyone. Just look at everyone who played 3 across the back and the offisde trap with Italy - put Zambrotta, Nesta and Cannavaro back there and you'd stop a lot of through passes with the offside trap as all 3 have the 'Defensive Line' star, do the same with Helguera, Puyol and Ramos and you won't be as effective even though, physically, they're the same as the Italian trio.


I also strongly disagree on the offensive side of the ball too, why else would anyone pick Ashton to play upfront with Tevez rather than Carlton Cole - Carlton Cole has better physical stats and yet Ashton gets open way more often. Likewise, why does anyone bother to pick up Jari Litmannen in the ML? He's slow and he's not strong, and yet he always seems to be open.



I'm going off on a tangent but I also think passing is better in WE not just because the CPU doesn't cut out passes but because there's a more noticeable difference in passing skills between players - a through pass from Deco is much less likely to be cut out than a pass from Marquez - I don't notice that in FIFA, hell no one even bothers to put Deco into the Barca starting 11, it's all about the speed of Messi, Henry and Etoo.



That's my $0.02. Maybe I'm just imagining things but I don't think so.

[dougb]

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

Do this for me, play last year's WE for the 360 online against randoms with two teams; pick Fulham (since ZaT Knight plays for Fulham in that game) and Chelsea and set the backline to 3 players and set the 'Offside Trap' play to 'A' with the line pushed up - this means that the 3 defenders play a high line and always try the offside trap.

Now see how many breakaways you give up with Chelsea vs. Fulham.

Both Calvalho and Terry have the 'Defensive Line' star while no-one on Fulham has it - so the Fulham guys will try to play the offside trap often and will fail. You DO notice how well they play the line, if you don't believe me just try it, or ask met34 here - he's played more WE than anyone. Just look at everyone who played 3 across the back and the offisde trap with Italy - put Zambrotta, Nesta and Cannavaro back there and you'd stop a lot of through passes with the offside trap as all 3 have the 'Defensive Line' star, do the same with Helguera, Puyol and Ramos and you won't be as effective even though, physically, they're the same as the Italian trio.


I also strongly disagree on the offensive side of the ball too, why else would anyone pick Ashton to play upfront with Tevez rather than Carlton Cole - Carlton Cole has better physical stats and yet Ashton gets open way more often. Likewise, why does anyone bother to pick up Jari Litmannen in the ML? He's slow and he's not strong, and yet he always seems to be open.



I'm going off on a tangent but I also think passing is better in WE not just because the CPU doesn't cut out passes but because there's a more noticeable difference in passing skills between players - a through pass from Deco is much less likely to be cut out than a pass from Marquez - I don't notice that in FIFA, hell no one even bothers to put Deco into the Barca starting 11, it's all about the speed of Messi, Henry and Etoo.



That's my $0.02. Maybe I'm just imagining things but I don't think so.

I wonder with this year's Pro Evo if maybe the default defensive settings for teams are part of the problem. For instance, my ML team starts out with defensive line set high as default, agressive off-side, and the auto defensive/offensive setting for players seems to be to push up as well. Right after I have the kick off I see my midfield and defenders pushing up, often past the player with the ball, and assume a very flat forward setting. Resettiing some of these setting I'm getting better results. I'd like to see what one of the really good team of modders can do with the team settings for the AI controlled teams.

Best wishes,

Doug

[dougb]

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

Do this for me, play last year's WE for the 360 online against randoms with two teams; pick Fulham (since ZaT Knight plays for Fulham in that game) and Chelsea and set the backline to 3 players and set the 'Offside Trap' play to 'A' with the line pushed up - this means that the 3 defenders play a high line and always try the offside trap.

Now see how many breakaways you give up with Chelsea vs. Fulham.

Both Calvalho and Terry have the 'Defensive Line' star while no-one on Fulham has it - so the Fulham guys will try to play the offside trap often and will fail. You DO notice how well they play the line, if you don't believe me just try it, or ask met34 here - he's played more WE than anyone. Just look at everyone who played 3 across the back and the offisde trap with Italy - put Zambrotta, Nesta and Cannavaro back there and you'd stop a lot of through passes with the offside trap as all 3 have the 'Defensive Line' star, do the same with Helguera, Puyol and Ramos and you won't be as effective even though, physically, they're the same as the Italian trio.


I also strongly disagree on the offensive side of the ball too, why else would anyone pick Ashton to play upfront with Tevez rather than Carlton Cole - Carlton Cole has better physical stats and yet Ashton gets open way more often. Likewise, why does anyone bother to pick up Jari Litmannen in the ML? He's slow and he's not strong, and yet he always seems to be open.



I'm going off on a tangent but I also think passing is better in WE not just because the CPU doesn't cut out passes but because there's a more noticeable difference in passing skills between players - a through pass from Deco is much less likely to be cut out than a pass from Marquez - I don't notice that in FIFA, hell no one even bothers to put Deco into the Barca starting 11, it's all about the speed of Messi, Henry and Etoo.



That's my $0.02. Maybe I'm just imagining things but I don't think so.

I wonder with this year's Pro Evo if maybe the default defensive settings for teams are part of the problem. For instance, my ML team starts out with defensive line set high as default, agressive off-side, and the auto defensive/offensive setting for players seems to be to push up as well. Right after I have the kick off I see my midfield and defenders pushing up, often past the player with the ball, and assume a very flat forward setting. Resettiing some of these setting I'm getting better results. I'd like to see what one of the really good team of modders can do with the team settings for the AI controlled teams.

Best wishes,

Doug

[JRod]

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

Do this for me, play last year's WE for the 360 online against randoms with two teams; pick Fulham (since ZaT Knight plays for Fulham in that game) and Chelsea and set the backline to 3 players and set the 'Offside Trap' play to 'A' with the line pushed up - this means that the 3 defenders play a high line and always try the offside trap.

Now see how many breakaways you give up with Chelsea vs. Fulham.

Both Calvalho and Terry have the 'Defensive Line' star while no-one on Fulham has it - so the Fulham guys will try to play the offside trap often and will fail. You DO notice how well they play the line, if you don't believe me just try it, or ask met34 here - he's played more WE than anyone. Just look at everyone who played 3 across the back and the offisde trap with Italy - put Zambrotta, Nesta and Cannavaro back there and you'd stop a lot of through passes with the offside trap as all 3 have the 'Defensive Line' star, do the same with Helguera, Puyol and Ramos and you won't be as effective even though, physically, they're the same as the Italian trio.


I also strongly disagree on the offensive side of the ball too, why else would anyone pick Ashton to play upfront with Tevez rather than Carlton Cole - Carlton Cole has better physical stats and yet Ashton gets open way more often. Likewise, why does anyone bother to pick up Jari Litmannen in the ML? He's slow and he's not strong, and yet he always seems to be open.



I'm going off on a tangent but I also think passing is better in WE not just because the CPU doesn't cut out passes but because there's a more noticeable difference in passing skills between players - a through pass from Deco is much less likely to be cut out than a pass from Marquez - I don't notice that in FIFA, hell no one even bothers to put Deco into the Barca starting 11, it's all about the speed of Messi, Henry and Etoo.



That's my $0.02. Maybe I'm just imagining things but I don't think so.

You are creating a sitaution that probably doesn't occur that much in the game. First when you have to change settings to see difference that proves that games are defenders are more of the same. I'm not saying they play exactly the same nor is it fair to say that everyone in FIFA plays the same. That was the orginal part of this discussion.

WE and FIFA each handle it in different ways. Kanu and Utaka feel completely different. I can do this with Papa Diop that I can't with Sully Muntari. Those things are different in FIFA than they are in WE.

My point is there aren't STRONG differences in WE. You never see players go pear shaped and completely go stupid like you do in real life. Their are subtle differences and you have to spot them out in both games.

[Macca00]

You are creating a sitaution that probably doesn't occur that much in the game. First when you have to change settings to see difference that proves that games are defenders are more of the same. I'm not saying they play exactly the same nor is it fair to say that everyone in FIFA plays the same. That was the orginal part of this discussion.

JRod,

I was just giving an objective example that could easily be re-created rather than just saying 'No, in WE you CAN tell the difference between players in their ability to stick close to attackers and hold the line'.

You give the Portsmouth examples and that's great but I still find when playing against the CPU every team and particularly every team's defensive awareness is the same - or maybe I'll say very, very, very similar. It's mainly the reason that I've really stopped playing my Manager Mode season with Forest as it was getting boring playing the same team over and over. I never got that bored in JLWE2007CC (particularly because it takes me 5 minutes to say the title of the game) and still play the odd ML and Fantasista match against the computer.

I'm still loving this game online.

[JRod]

You are creating a sitaution that probably doesn't occur that much in the game. First when you have to change settings to see difference that proves that games are defenders are more of the same. I'm not saying they play exactly the same nor is it fair to say that everyone in FIFA plays the same. That was the orginal part of this discussion.

JRod,

I was just giving an objective example that could easily be re-created rather than just saying 'No, in WE you CAN tell the difference between players in their ability to stick close to attackers and hold the line'.

You give the Portsmouth examples and that's great but I still find when playing against the CPU every team and particularly every team's defensive awareness is the same - or maybe I'll say very, very, very similar. It's mainly the reason that I've really stopped playing my Manager Mode season with Forest as it was getting boring playing the same team over and over. I never got that bored in JLWE2007CC (particularly because it takes me 5 minutes to say the title of the game) and still play the odd ML and Fantasista match against the computer.

I'm still loving this game online.

And I'm saying the lack of different defenses in FIFA is the exact same problem in WE. I had a EPL/SPL and Coca Cola option file a while back for WE10 Ps2. Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U where better not because they played tactically better but because they could take the ball away easily.

You are complaining about something in FIFA that is the exact same problem in WE. In WE, I would love to see John Terry clear everything that's headed to him. Make spot on tackles and shut down passing lanes. But that's not how defense is done in WE.

I would like to see that same thing in FIFA, rather then making it easier for John Terry to take the ball away.

I've said this before team differences aren't in WE or FIFA. Player differences are to an extent. But that extent is how big the player is and how easily he can dispossess a player.

Quite frankly, neither WE or FIFA has ever had team tactics. Each game has Barcalona and Wigan play defense exactly the same.

[Jared]

Been away...missing out on a lot of the debate here...

But there is a clear difference in defensive player positioning in Winning Eleven than in FIFA. Defenders are MUCH more disciplined and much more predictable in FIFA. You see it often when you send a player on a run and they have a choice to go to the ball carrier or the runner...they almost ALWAYS go to the player making the run, ensuring that they tightly mark him and take away any pass. In WE you seem to get more variability in those situations. There also seem to be more breakaways given up by the computer in WE than in FIFA because they get caught out of position more often (in realistic ways, usually by making a decision to go for the ball instead of playing disciplined). It seems like in FIFA, the differences in defenders are more in speed and the ability to get to a specific spot to head/volley a cross in...whereas in WE, they seem much more organic and involve more variables.

And I do think that you see players go stupid in WE...it's one of the things I love. I don't know how much of the JLWECC game you've played JRod (so maybe this is only related to really poor defenders), but you see a fair amount of poor positioning that leads to goals. Stuff that you don't see with much poorer teams (e.g. teams in the Irish league) in FIFA.

(Oh, and as an aside, it would be great if the FIFA team or the WE team looked at player positioning in the 2D engine in WWSM and built off of that. Wow...player positioning, passing...it's all wonderful.)

[Rodster]

Has anyone downloaded the FIFA 360 patch yet? Someone over at OS claims it's fixed framerate issues, player responsiveness, fixed AI issues and genital herpes. Ok so I was just kidding about fixing the AI issues.

[JRod]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

[dougb]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

I'm game.

Best wishes,

Doug

[ScoopBrady]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

10 different consoles?

I'm definitely up for trying this over the weekend.

[Macca00]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

Brotherman, I am SO IN!

[GB_Simo]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

I'd have some of that. No voice comms after a certain time, being in England and not wishing to wake people up, but I can't see that being much of an obstacle.

[Jimmydeicide]

Hmm, damn, who looks like an arse now.

[JohnnytheSkin]

I'm definately up for some online team play...though I doubt it will deliver the pure gaming bliss that NHL team play provides. Just send the invite!

[RobVarak]

5 on 5 has now been added... anyone want to give that mode a go over the weekend. Zep, Macca, Rob, Sean whoever else has the game?

HELL yes!

[seanmac31]

I haven't tried the Be a Pro camera angle yet, but I can't see how this wouldn't be fun. Not sure I'll be online this weekend, but if I make it, I'm game.

[JRod]

Doug, I don't know if I have your XBL gamertag. Mine is QuarterRod.

[dougb]

Doug, I don't know if I have your XBL gamertag. Mine is QuarterRod.

Hi Jrod,

It's Dougb1.

Best wishes,

Doug

[Zeppo]

Well finally! That's great news. I can't wait to give it a go. I won't be around tomorrow night, but tonight (Fri) i should be good if anyone else is up for some multiplayer.

[Blublub]

Anyone with the PS3 version of FIFA finding it impossible to download the patch? It keeps getting to about 12 percent and then stalls.