Soccer thread 08/09 (will have spoilers!)

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:48 am

Naples39 wrote: Not a single positive for the US last night.

I wouldn't go that far. Anyone who expected a USA win down there isn't dealing with reality. No one wins there; almost no one ever scores there.

Charlie Davies showed very well, I thought. For a while there he and Freddy Adu were playing on their own level, but it was too little too late. I thought Donovan wasn't terrible (outside of his set pieces), considering how little he saw of the ball in the first half, and the same would go for Jozy, who got no good service at all but still was too much for their defenders to deal with when he did get the ball near the box. He's headed in the right direction.

Yes, I think the players could have and many should have played better, but I put all the blame on Bob Bradley for thinking that Beasley and Wynne (Wynne!) at FB was a good idea. Marvell Wynne should never be invited back to camp, much less dress or play in a game for the US again. Most made up their minds about that after his embarrassing performance at last summer's Copa America, but somehow BB didn't get that memo. The guy was worse than useless out there last night, and quite seriously we might have been better starting with 10 than having that empty shirt running around out there. The guy just can't play the game, plain and simple.

And then to not only start Mastroeni, who was horrendous, but to keep him in the game after the break instead of Torres, who was for my money the most effective player we had in the midfield in the first half, was almost just as mind boggling.

Now I fear ol' Bob will fall into a classic self-fulfulling prophecy mode, thinking to himself 'well, we tried an offensive group and formation on the road, and look at that, it didn't work.' While the real facts of the matter are that A.) any coach who puts Marvell Wynne on the pitch in a game that actually means something is by definition an idiot, and B.) putting one true forward on the pitch to start the game does not make for an aggressive or attacking formation.

I swear, and I've said this many times, the guy would put 10 central midfielders on the field if he didn't have Sorber and his assistants insisting on some variety to the line up. He will only put more than one true forward on the pitch when we are behind, and then only if we are lucky enough for him to have selected more than one to the roster. And he will continue to imagine that FB is a position where he can place anyone, as long as it's not a true FB.

But, frustration aside, we did score a goal there for the first time since 2000 (even though it was a gift PK), and as I said at the top, if you truly believed we would win down there, you weren't being realistic. Yes, it would've been nice to see us have a fighting chance, but unfortunately, we have Bob Bradley making the line up decisions. People can blame Gooch and Boca all they want, but really they were hung out to dry by having no defensively competent fullbacks outside of them.

A win at Soldier Field on Saturday will make the hurt go away.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:04 am

I didn't expect a win, but I didn't expect them to get blown off the field by Costa Rica either.

I agree that Beasley and Wynne were atrocious (what has happened to Beasley's career--watching him play now you wonder if it's the same guy from 2002-2005), and then you had the 3 forwards hanging out waiting for service that never came. Onyewu and Boca weren't that bad, but the fullbacks and 3 midfielders were laughably incompetent on defense.

After a shaky first few minutes, I also thought Torres was our most effective player in the first half, which makes him being subbed out at halftime particularly confusing.

I really can't comment on Adu's and Davies' performances because I was barely paying attention at that point.

Post by **Jared** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:09 am

Pretty much agree with everything you've said Zepp. Funny, when they showed the lineups, it was so odd that Bradley was going with something other than his traditional 4-5-1. This game was screaming for the typical Bradley 4-5-1 with stronger, more defensive outside backs.

And why play two outside backs with poor positioning and poor first touches on a road game on TURF? What's wrong with using Demerit in the middle, moving Boca over and putting Spector on the right?

And wow, Mastroeni was horrific. And Bradley was clearly gassed around 60, and did one of his patented stupid plays b/c he's tired (see him standing around on the 3rd goal).

I did like Torres' play (why sub him?). And I also liked Davies and Adu, and Jozy looked OK given the circumstances.

Ugh...this is not the best way to go into the Honduras match. We really need 3 points.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:46 am

They were all s***. The only reason Davies looked good is because it was 3-0 and the pedal had been released by the Costa Ricans plus he looked like he wanted to be sent off more than playing. Torres was ok and Altidore looked shaky. The rest were just garbage and play like that will have Brazil and Italy put an anal raping on us in 2 weeks.

I also have no idea why Spector was not even in the 18 named.

Bring back Frankie Simek!

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:54 am

also, lone striker formations are gayer than Wales. Period

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:58 pm

The Budesliga was the highest scoring league for the 20th year in a row out of the top 5 leagues in Europe with a 2.92 goal a game average. France was last for the 20th year in a row with a 2.42 per game average.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Do you have a link to the full list? A lot of English fans go on about how defensive the Serie A is, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference in average goals between it and the EPL.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:34 pm

No full list. A columnist for Soccernet does it every year for the top 5 leagues. Link to the column below.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/st ... pe&cc=5901

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:48 pm

Feanor wrote:Do you have a link to the full list? A lot of English fans go on about how defensive the Serie A is, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference in average goals between it and the EPL.

Full numbers: http://soccer-europe.com/Statistics/Goals/GPGEuro.html

And from Squid's article:

For instance, if forced to use a cliché, most fans would probably say that English football is offensive and Italian football is defensive. But in the past fourteen years, Italy outscored England nine times (and one year there was a draw). Those goals can't all be dubious penalties awarded to Juventus in stoppage time.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:58 pm

That's because most people don't know what they're on about. You could look at it in a number of ways...

1. The average number of goals is any indicator as to the entertainment value or quality of a league - Nope.

2. The average number of goals is any indicator as to the quality of the players in that league - arguable, as leagues will not usually have a vast disparity between the number of quality strikers and the number of similar quality defenders/goalies

3. The average number of goals is a function of the standard formations used in those leagues - again arguable, as you could go to the Camp Nou and play any formation short of 10-0-0 and you might well be on the end of a pasting. Equally, the knowledgeable fan knows that Serie A teams largely abandoned catenaccio 15 years ago, in favour of the phone call to the other chairman or the head of the referee's panel, in Juventus's case.

4. The average number of goals is an indication of the relative average strength of the league - it's arguable that the teams at the bottom of the Premiership (say Newcastle - average attendance about 50k) are much better resourced than most of the teams in Serie A, and therefore tend to get hammered (as opposed to beaten) less frequently. Equally, it's arguable that the average standard of the Bundesliga is lower than the Premiership, as there was only 1 team that lost fewer than 7 games, and they actually came 6th in the league. This argument to me would be exemplified by Hertha Berlin, who could be excellent one week and garbage the next, and who went to already-relegated Karlsruhe on the last week to look for 3 points to guarantee a CL place....and got spanked 4-0 and were lucky to get nil.

5. Actually, it doesn't matter at all - that gets my vote

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:07 pm

Zeppo wrote:
But, frustration aside, we did score a goal there for the first time since 2000 (even though it was a gift PK), and as I said at the top, if you truly believed we would win down there, you weren't being realistic.

I'm sorry. I have a hard time grinning and accepting that we can't trot down to a country with the population half the size of New York City and score more goals than they do in a soccer match. I understand the history, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to accept the status quo of mediocre performances down there. The dysfunctional "development" of US soccer is positively excrutiating.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:06 am

Ya if we can't beat Costa Rica down there, how do we expect to big the world's best in the WC in South Africa.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:23 am

Nobody expects that, do they?

They surprised a few teams in 2002 and then nothing.

What progress has there been to lead one to think they can compete?

Which players are going to break out and lead the team further than it has?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:12 am

Which players are going to break out and lead the team further than it has?

Frank Simek

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:01 am

This Dzeko character who currently plays for Wolfsburg...any good ?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:23 am

Yea, him and Grafite just lit up the Bundesliga this year. He's young and I think he took home the Player of the Year this year, but I'm unsure.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:39 am

Seen him a few times on Setanta's Bundesliga highlights show, but I thought he was a little taller than 5' 11", so he doesn't really count as a BLUF.

Sorry...BLUF = Big Lad Up Front

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:40 am

Magath has never been a tall forward guy.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:07 am

Ho hum, I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping that Mark Hughes doesn't think that Peter Crouch or Santa Cruz is the answer in a 4-5-1 formation. I'll cross me fingers and hope for 4-4-2 with Eto'o and Tevez.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:36 pm

What would Barcelona gain by trading Eto'o for Ibrahimovic?

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:23 pm

Eto'o has occasionally pissed off management by his surliness and general 'can't be arsed' demeanour, particularly in the 07/08 season. Great player on his day mind, will go well with Tevez in light blue next season

As for Ibrahimovic, he's a proper pain in the arse, that's why Inter want rid. Scores a fair few in Serie A, but very poor record in international soccer, where he often looks completely lost. Dunno why, but there's something about him that doesn't quite ring true.

I can understand Inter wanting rid (they must have a replacement lined up somewhere), but I can't quite follow Barcelona buying him unless they are getting rid of Eto'o and also not going for David Villa from Valencia. I'd go for the latter - better player and Valencia are on their beam ends after missing out on CL qualification.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:34 pm

They won big trophies, scored a ton of goals with their front line, and they want to tinker with their roster?

Maybe they would net a bunch of money out of the transaction.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:47 pm

Dunno about that - Eto'o is probably £30m tops, and Ibrahimovic is signficantly younger. Of the three up front for Barcelona, Eto'o is the easiest to replace.

Plus teams don't like to be seen to be standing still. I'd expect a new LB next season (Abidal is undisciplined and Sylvinho is past it) some new squad players and maybe another centre back as well. It's not like Barcelona are short of a few bob.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:04 pm

While their roles are somewhat different, Ibrahimovic reminds me of Berbatov. Both are excellent players who lack consistency. On top of that, both have a sort of nonchalance on the pitch that looks elegant when playing well and lazy when not.

I'd suffer gladly with either of them though, given the right price.

Nice game by the US last night. Workmanlike and scary in places, but it was nice to see Feilhaber display some of the old promise despite lack of match fitness. Wish I had gone.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:50 am

There are much better strikers than Berbatov or Ibrahimovich for the money. Given £30m, I'd be on the blower to Real Madrid for Higuain or Valencia for David Villa - or wait a couple of weeks until Liverpool's fire sale starts and nip in with a cheeky £50m bid for Torres.

In other football news that you couldn't possibly make up, it's been reported (and partly confirmed by RM's president) that their pre-transfer agreement with Ronaldo stipulates that if they fail to sign him this summer, then they will pay him £26m....not Man U, but him personally. Their only hope is to trigger his £75m release clause, coz Man U sure as hell won't help them wriggle out of that.

Good job it's only City ruining football, eh Messieurs Blatter and Platini ??