OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:58 am

GTHobbes wrote: And where did this plan to bail out the irresponsible home buyers come from?

It sounds a lot like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOLC

The goal wouldn't be to bail out "irresponsible" homeowners or real estate speculators but rather, stabilize the real estate market, which is seeing plummeting home values (including the values of homes of "responsible" homeowners) as well as destroying the balance sheets of financial institutions which own MBS and other derivatives.

MSNBC reported that McCain consulted with Martin Feldstein and other economists. They may flesh out this plan more in future speeches and then expand on it at the last debate.

Conservatives will no doubt see this as a Democrat-style pandering.

It's certainly outside-the-box for a Republican to propose something which doesn't involve tax cuts and smaller govt.

Of course that would have been Republican-style pandering.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:10 am

wco81 wrote:The goal wouldn't be to bail out "irresponsible" homeowners or real estate speculators but rather, stabilize the real estate market, which is seeing plummeting home values (including the values of homes of "responsible" homeowners) as well as destroying the balance sheets of financial institutions which own MBS and other derivatives.

Yes, it would stabilize the real estate market, which has been rocked by irresponsible borrowers and predatory lenders.

You can slice it with semantics any way you want. It's a bailout.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:21 am

I don't know if it would work, especially by itself.

Whatever you want to call it, McCain had to offer something in response to the anxiety which is out there.

Better than doing nothing other than to try to attack the opponent.

This may be another Hail Mary though.

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:39 am

Dave wrote:Fine, we'll cut out bear research too. What, you mean earmarks aren't the entire budgetary problem?

I have no idea why McCain keeps pretending that getting rid of earmarks will make a big dent in the deficit. However, earmarks do have a large hidden cost beyond their (only mildly significant) sticker price:
- they encourage corruption and quid pro quo for donors and special interests
- they act as enablers for much larger spending outlays; they are essentially bribes used to get persuade members of Congress to vote for something they otherwise might not. In some cases, that "something" actually does carry a significant price tag. You see this in a lot of appropriations bills.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:52 am

wco81 wrote: This may be another Hail Mary though.

Talking point alert!

I don't know how many times I heard this phrase on TV tonight...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:55 am

Zogby's got a horserace:
http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1575

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:09 am

Teal wrote:Zogby's got a horserace:
http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1575

Dozens of polls beg to differ.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

National polls don't really matter. It's now down to the states.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:12 am

pk500 wrote:
Teal wrote:I know. I just got a reminder tonight. Dammit. Wasn't going to vote for him until Palin entered the race, anyway. Kinda holding my nose and pulling the lever for him, just because I can't stand the thought of a liberal president with a liberal congress. Yeesh.
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/home/skip/?s=0618

Take care,
PK

Yes, please. Teal and all conservatives that feel slighted by McCain, please vote Barr(esp in swing states)!

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:33 am

Teal wrote:
bdunn13 wrote:
McCain just pisses me off when he talks about wanting to bailout moronic people that buy a house they can't afford.
Yeah, that was a terrible thing to push out there. I'm afraid he just 'Dole-ed' himself tonight after that one. His base will be off the rails over that one.

I don't see why he doesn't separate himself from all of them like he used to, rather than trying to out-democrat a democrat.

He lost my vote with that plan. I just cannot force myself to vote for anyone willing to give my money to people that have no concept of accountability.

Hello Bob Barr.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:37 am

pk500 wrote:A very slight edge to Obama due to McCain's INSANE proposal to buy bad mortgages from homeowners, a program that reportedly will cost $300 billion. Add that to the bailout (it's not a f*cking rescue, McCain), and Uncle Sam is spending more than a TRILLION dollars to bail out predators and idiots.

We know Obama wants to spend a ton of money. But whatever happened to fiscally responsible Republicans when their candidate is proposing to have the GOVERNMENT buy bad mortgages? Reagan and Goldwater must be turning in their graves.

Almost any chance McCain had of earning my vote evaporated tonight when he proposed the mortgage buyout. That is sheer LUNACY and only promotes more irresponsible lending and consumer abuse of credit once the economy recovers.

Like Brad, I'm starting to lean back to Barr. Both McCain and Obama are morphing into socialists. Obama wants to socialize medicine; McCain wants to socialize the mortgage industry.

I don't want to take either poison potion.

Take care,
PK

Agreed.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:44 am

pk500 wrote:
There comes a point where banks and people must take responsibility for their actions. The crisis is self-inflicted, either by predatory lenders or morons who lived way beyond their means.

The welfare state is designed to help the most downtrodden in our society. People who make $70,000 per year yet took out mortgages -- for which they KNEW the rate could double in certain financial situations -- for $400,000 are NOT the downtrodden of American society. They're the idiots who have zero financial discipline or who were duped because they didn't read the fine print.

Same thing for the banks. The predators are being rewarded for their devious actions with a nice government handout. I'm glad that AIG appears so chastened by its troubles -- AIG executives took a $400,000 junket after they learned the government was saving their ass.

It's about f*cking time that people learn to live within their means. That time is now.

Take care,
PK

This post gave me piss shivers. Agreed!!!!!!!

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:46 am

wco81 wrote:I don't know if it would work, especially by itself.

Whatever you want to call it, McCain had to offer something in response to the anxiety which is out there.

Better than doing nothing other than to try to attack the opponent.

This may be another Hail Mary though.

For me it turned out to be a "Hell to the no!". Bye bye McCain....Hello Bob Barr.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:53 am

greggsand wrote:
pk500 wrote:
Teal wrote:I know. I just got a reminder tonight. Dammit. Wasn't going to vote for him until Palin entered the race, anyway. Kinda holding my nose and pulling the lever for him, just because I can't stand the thought of a liberal president with a liberal congress. Yeesh.
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/home/skip/?s=0618

Take care,
PK
Yes, please. Teal and all conservatives that feel slighted by McCain, please vote Barr(esp in swing states)!

Obama is worse. His answers to all the questions last night started and ended with Goverment. Your Messiah will lead us into higher taxes and more social programs. Yum Yum. Last nights debate was a "Deliverance" moment for me. At the very least,voting for Bob Barr will let me be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't vote to take the financial dick in the ass these two are holding.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:36 am

JackDog wrote:Last nights debate was a "Deliverance" moment for me. At the very least,voting for Bob Barr will let me be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't vote to take the financial dick in the ass these two are holding.

Exactly my sentiments. l can't vote with any conscience for a candidate who wants to drastically increase the size of the Federal government, which is the cornerstone of both Obama and McCain's economic plans.

Take care,
PK

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:02 am

pk500 wrote:A very slight edge to Obama due to McCain's INSANE proposal to buy bad mortgages from homeowners, a program that reportedly will cost $300 billion.

Yeah, he lost me on that one. I sat there for a few seconds replaying in my mind what I thought I just heard before I realized that is in fact what he said.

So where is my home mortgage discount? We bought what we could afford, put in a nice down payment, and have been paying on time every single month. How come those who can't afford the house they are in automatically get a break?

If that was his idea of an October surprise, it just blew up in his face.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:11 am

wco81 wrote:The goal wouldn't be to bail out "irresponsible" homeowners or real estate speculators but rather, stabilize the real estate market, which is seeing plummeting home values (including the values of homes of "responsible" homeowners) as well as destroying the balance sheets of financial institutions which own MBS and other derivatives.

Home values need to plummet. They took off like a rocket towards the moon, and now it's time for re-entry. Trying to forceably stabilize home values will only lead to more bad side effects down the road.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:17 am

JackDog wrote: At the very least,voting for Bob Barr will let me be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't vote to take the financial dick in the ass these two are holding.

But either way, when you wake up the morning of November 5th you'll be wondering why your a$$ hurts so much

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:22 am

I'm bummed this morning. With everything going on in our country that is directly affecting most of us, I cannot believe that these are the two choices we are left with to run our country.

McCain scares me more than a little (mainly due to last night).
Obama scares me a lot.

So how's Canada doing nowadays?

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:43 am

matthewk wrote:If that was his idea of an October surprise, it just blew up in his face.

Yeah, the correct strategy is to get hostages released, not take them.

I believe taxes are going up no matter who wins. The bailout all but assured that, because the economy probably will take a while to recover and start filling tax coffers again. There obviously has to be some balance -- you don't want to choke economic growth -- but I don't see how the government can continue to operate without raising taxes. It's way beyond cutting earmarks at this point.

There are "starve the beast" proponents who would argue for the wholesale elimination of some areas of government. But that's not in step with the majority of voters right now, because it's always "waste" until someone cuts something you need.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:43 am

matthewk wrote: McCain scares me more than a little (mainly due to last night).
Obama scares me a lot.

Sounds a lot like my post from last night

except McCain just pisses me off.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:44 am

matthewk wrote:
JackDog wrote: At the very least,voting for Bob Barr will let me be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't vote to take the financial dick in the ass these two are holding.
But either way, when you wake up the morning of November 5th you'll be wondering why your a$$ hurts so much

I couldn't quite figure out what it was that they were holding. The ass? The dick? And is it only one dick? That they are both holding??

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:49 am

matthewk wrote:
wco81 wrote:The goal wouldn't be to bail out "irresponsible" homeowners or real estate speculators but rather, stabilize the real estate market, which is seeing plummeting home values (including the values of homes of "responsible" homeowners) as well as destroying the balance sheets of financial institutions which own MBS and other derivatives.
Home values need to plummet. They took off like a rocket towards the moon, and now it's time for re-entry. Trying to forceably stabilize home values will only lead to more bad side effects down the road.

Even your own?

Question is whether they will simply go down to pre-bubble levels and start climbing again or they'll keep diving.

Dow is down to 2003 levels, which weren't that great as the economy was recovering from the 2001 recession and 9/11. It might have gone down more today if not for a coordinated rate cut by central banks across the world over night.

Everyone's 401k balances are going down. It's not just Miami condos which are plummeting.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:45 am

wco81 wrote:Even your own?

Considering I don't use home equity to fund purchases, I don't plan to move any time soon and I consider my house a dwelling, not an investment opportunity, I wouldn't fear a drop in my property value if it provided an opportunity for America to build a financial foundation that isn't based on massive consumer debt. Lower property value also would create a lower assessment, which would create lower property taxes.

Plus the property value would build back to its correct level over time. Imagine that: Long-term financial thinking. Whew -- I need a drink.

MattK is right: Property values were severely overheated and overinflated, and it's time for a correction for EVERYONE. Basing an economy on inflated home values and excessive consumer credit is simply unsustainable. In Nancy Pelosi's inimitable words, the party is over.

The only true solution to this financial crisis is to let the patient bleed out and then start anew, building an economy that isn't based on excessive credit. None of these government bailouts are anything more than Band-Aids that will cause further debt, creating perfect conditions for this situation to occur again in the future.

Americans need to realize that they can't live beyond their means. I read where the AVERAGE American home has $9,000 of credit card debt. That's mind-boggling and appalling.

Sure, medical bills and other unforeseen, legitimate expenses comprise part of that average. But I'm willing to bet my mortgage that most of that debt is comprised of people who just HAD to have that new HDTV or HAD to buy those new Gap jeans, even if they didn't have the money to pay for them.

Plus, if I lose the bet, I don't need to worry: John McCain will pick up the tab for my toxic mortgage.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:53 am

matthewk wrote:I'm bummed this morning. With everything going on in our country that is directly affecting most of us, I cannot believe that these are the two choices we are left with to run our country.

McCain scares me more than a little (mainly due to last night).
Obama scares me a lot.

So how's Canada doing nowadays?

You know what really bums me out today? The shitty two party system we have in this country. Why wasn't Bob Barr invited to any of the debates? I guess my party is to blame. We don't pick a candidate until 5 months before the election. We don't push our platform enough. I can't tell you how many people I talk to that call themselves "Libertarians". Yet we don't see any movement inside the party to make a serious run at the White House.

Your right brother. Nov 5th is not a day I'm looking forward too at all. No matter who wins it's gonna cost the hardworking responsible middle class a shitload of money. And before anyone tries to tell me McCain this and Obama that,save it. Forrest Gump could understand both of these guys are going to make goverment bigger,people less accountable and taxes higher.

I am going to start drinking now. HOORAY BEER!!

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:56 am

JackDog wrote:
matthewk wrote:I'm bummed this morning. With everything going on in our country that is directly affecting most of us, I cannot believe that these are the two choices we are left with to run our country.

McCain scares me more than a little (mainly due to last night).
Obama scares me a lot.

So how's Canada doing nowadays?
You know what really bums me out today? The shitty two party system we have in this country. Why wasn't Bob Barr invited to any of the debates? I guess my party is to blame. We don't pick a candidate until 5 months before the election. We don't push our platform enough. I can't tell you how many people I talk to that call themselves "Libertarians". Yet we don't see any movement inside the party to make a serious run at the White House.

Your right brother. Nov 5th is not a day I'm looking forward too at all. No matter who wins it's gonna cost the hardworking responsible middle class a shitload of money. And before anyone tries to tell me McCain this and Obama that,save it. Forrest Gump could understand both of these guys are going to make goverment bigger,people less accountable and taxes higher.

I am going to start drinking now. HOORAY BEER!!

Isn't the idea of libertarians and an organised political machine somewhat of a contradiction in terms ?

What you lot really need is democratic socialism - bailing out banks has only cost £50m up to now, and most of those followed your shitty example

Plus I now own part of 8 different banks - I feel sullied....