OT: 2008 Elections

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Post by Jackdog »

wco81 wrote:Why would a Congress made up of Democrats and Republicans accommodate a Libertarian?

Not to mention other branches of the govt, including most of the executive branch?

Did Ventura get a lot of things changed in MN or get a lot of cooperation from the pols up there?

Libertarian candidate may be able to draw a protest vote but won't be anything but symbolic.

If they really want some kind of clout, they should aim for a few seats in the Senate, so that they can swing majorities with either party and cut deals.
I don't know man. Just let me dream. :wink:
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Post by Teal »

wco81 wrote:Why would a Congress made up of Democrats and Republicans accommodate a Libertarian?

Not to mention other branches of the govt, including most of the executive branch?

Did Ventura get a lot of things changed in MN or get a lot of cooperation from the pols up there?

Libertarian candidate may be able to draw a protest vote but won't be anything but symbolic.

If they really want some kind of clout, they should aim for a few seats in the Senate, so that they can swing majorities with either party and cut deals.
This is why I'm switching my vote. If enough people cry out loud enough, the Constitution (you know, that document government doesn't seem to give a damn about anymore) will have to be dealt with again. Nothing changes until people actually want change. The Boston Tea Party was a protest vote...but it worked. Small steps still get you somewhere...
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tealboy03 wrote:
wco81 wrote:Why would a Congress made up of Democrats and Republicans accommodate a Libertarian?

Not to mention other branches of the govt, including most of the executive branch?

Did Ventura get a lot of things changed in MN or get a lot of cooperation from the pols up there?

Libertarian candidate may be able to draw a protest vote but won't be anything but symbolic.

If they really want some kind of clout, they should aim for a few seats in the Senate, so that they can swing majorities with either party and cut deals.

This is why I'm switching my vote. If enough people cry out loud enough, the Constitution (you know, that document government doesn't seem to give a damn about anymore) will have to be dealt with again. Nothing changes until people actually want change. The Boston Tea Party was a protest vote...but it worked. Small steps still get you somewhere...
Bingo!
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Post by Teal »

JackDog wrote:
tealboy03 wrote:
wco81 wrote:Why would a Congress made up of Democrats and Republicans accommodate a Libertarian?

Not to mention other branches of the govt, including most of the executive branch?

Did Ventura get a lot of things changed in MN or get a lot of cooperation from the pols up there?

Libertarian candidate may be able to draw a protest vote but won't be anything but symbolic.

If they really want some kind of clout, they should aim for a few seats in the Senate, so that they can swing majorities with either party and cut deals.

This is why I'm switching my vote. If enough people cry out loud enough, the Constitution (you know, that document government doesn't seem to give a damn about anymore) will have to be dealt with again. Nothing changes until people actually want change. The Boston Tea Party was a protest vote...but it worked. Small steps still get you somewhere...
Bingo!

You know, I had a twinge of conscience to vote for Badnarik a few years ago...wish I had. This is a storm that has been brewing for some time in me-tired of being a damn apologist...
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Post by JackB1 »

tealboy03 wrote: the process is broken as hell, and has become nothing more than a popularity contest, and it's time for another party to be recognized as a legitimate and worthy contender to the nonsense I see.
I agree 100% that this "process" is broken and Obama is the only candidate that offers some hope about changing this broken process. What is the point of voting for a party that has zero chance of winning? Just to feel "rebellious" or for your own satisfaction? If there was a Libertarian party candidate who I agreed with that had a shot at winning, you bet I would consider voting that way, but for now it is just a wasted vote.
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JackDog wrote: Then he needs to press to drill for oil here at home. He has said he won't do that so we will continue to be dependent on other countries that do. We will get no respect as long as we have to keep asking others for what they have.
This is not the answer either. we would have to charge $20 a gallon to make up for the astronomical cost for drilling for oil from tar sands and oil shale.
Not to mention the environmental costs. This would just be a "band-aid" that would delay the inevitable. It's time to look into new technology that won't destroy our environment and ruin the planet for future generations. If we are going to spend billions developing this technology, why not spend it for developing a truly "new" technology that won't continue to destroy our planet.

On a related note, why aren't we looking into the obscene profits that the oil companies are making, while most of us struggle to fill our tanks and feed out families? If you want the real answer to ANY question facing our country, it ALWAYS traces back to greed. We have an oil man in the white house and we wonder why oil prices have skyrocketed since he's been in office?
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Post by Jackdog »

tealboy03 wrote:
JackDog wrote:
tealboy03 wrote:
This is why I'm switching my vote. If enough people cry out loud enough, the Constitution (you know, that document government doesn't seem to give a damn about anymore) will have to be dealt with again. Nothing changes until people actually want change. The Boston Tea Party was a protest vote...but it worked. Small steps still get you somewhere...
Bingo!

You know, I had a twinge of conscience to vote for Badnarik a few years ago...wish I had. This is a storm that has been brewing for some time in me-tired of being a damn apologist...
My first vote as a Libertarian was for Badnarik in 04 and I'haven't looked back. When I got back from Iraq at the end of 03,I spent a lot of time in Washington at Walter Reed. I became disgusted with both parties.

PK and I talked a lot and he schooled me up on his party of choice. After meeting him I also started to listen to Neil Boortz and always seemed to agree with his view. His take on FairTax is brilliant. I started to read more about the party and liked what I learned.
I take my vote very serious. So my jump to the Libertarian Party took some time. Welcome!
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Post by JackB1 »

JackDog wrote: After meeting him I also started to listen to Neil Boortz and always seemed to agree with his view. His take on FairTax is brilliant. I started to read more about the party and liked what I learned.
I take my vote very serious. So my jump to the Libertarian Party took some time. Welcome!
Boortz claims to be a Libertarian but he's been an unapologetic shill for Bush during the past few years. He's also an arrogant blowhard with very little mastery of rhetoric and not much of a command of the facts or the issues.
True Libertarians don't even like Boortz. He didn't even support the Libertarian candidate during the last election. I do like his "fairtax" idea, but haven't heard any other good ideas come out of his egotistical mouth.

I'll never forget Boortz's great idea that we should "store" 11 Million illegal hispanics in the Superdome until we figure out what country they were from and deport them there". That's a brilliant man. Boortz also thinks "global warming" is a "democratic scare tactic". He should go take a look at the shrinking polar caps. Even Bush now somewhat "acknowledges" global warming.


8O
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Post by Jared »

JackDog wrote:Thanks for the link. That was an interesting read.
I'm impressed that you "read" a 40 minute video link in 10 minutes...you have skillz that I couldn't imagine. :wink:
tealboy03 wrote:Well, Obama isn't going to teach us how, because he doesn't know how. Hell, I've yet to hear a speech of his that has any real substance to it, just popular fluff about change...change to what?
This is probably the umpteenth time I've said this in this long thread. Obama has made lots of policy speeches, speeches on race, speeches on religion, that aren't the simple stump speech. His website also has his substantive positions. (I can understand people disagreeing with the substance of Obama's positions...but I can't understand the common refrain that he has no substantive positions.)

And that oil shale link is interesting...if it's economically feasible, it sounds good to me.
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Jared wrote: This is probably the umpteenth time I've said this in this long thread. Obama has made lots of policy speeches, speeches on race, speeches on religion, that aren't the simple stump speech. His website also has his substantive positions. (I can understand people disagreeing with the substance of Obama's positions...but I can't understand the common refrain that he has no substantive positions.)
Jared....people that "decide" they don't like a certain candidate will quickly dismiss them before looking past the "soundbites". If anyone hasn't come up with "substance", it's McCain. He has flip flopped so many times in the past year, I don't know what he truly believes anymore.
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Jared wrote: I'm impressed that you "read" a 40 minute video link in 10 minutes...you have skillz that I couldn't imagine. :wink:
He probably meant the 2nd link. That was a written article.
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JackB1 wrote:
JackDog wrote: Then he needs to press to drill for oil here at home. He has said he won't do that so we will continue to be dependent on other countries that do. We will get no respect as long as we have to keep asking others for what they have.
This is not the answer either. we would have to charge $20 a gallon to make up for the astronomical cost for drilling for oil from tar sands and oil shale.
Not to mention the environmental costs. This would just be a "band-aid" that would delay the inevitable. It's time to look into new technology that won't destroy our environment and ruin the planet for future generations. If we are going to spend billions developing this technology, why not spend it for developing a truly "new" technology that won't continue to destroy our planet.

On a related note, why aren't we looking into the obscene profits that the oil companies are making, while most of us struggle to fill our tanks and feed out families? If you want the real answer to ANY question facing our country, it ALWAYS traces back to greed. We have an oil man in the white house and we wonder why oil prices have skyrocketed since he's been in office?

First off,it was that oil man in Washington that signed the Fuel Economy Bill. All cars have to get 31.6 miles to the gallon by 2015. That's a good thing right?


As far as getting fuel from coal,do some research man. Union Pacific Railroad is well on their way to developing liquid fuel made from coal. In fact, they even have some prototype engines running on the stuff right now.Canada is doing it and we are buying oil from them. Cost might have been an issue in 05 but not now. We are painting ourselves into a weak corner by not exploring and drilling where we know we have domestic reserves of oil on our land and off the coasts. In the meantime, sure, work on alternative energy and energy independence. We're not going to flip a switch one day and magically covert from one form to another.


As far as the environment goes,I'll get on board when the rest of the world does. We are the only power country that gives a f*** and it's killing us. Our "friends" the Saudis are balking at increasing production. So while they continue to screw with us on oil ... let's be sure to respond here in this country by:

1. Refusing to drill in ANWR for more oil in the very portion of ANWR that was set aside for the purpose of drilling for more oil.
2. Refuse to tap the known reserves of oil and natural gas off the West coast of Florida because, after all, we certainly don't want tourists in Florida to catch sight of a drilling rig 25 miles off shore now do we?
3. Refuse to develop ways to use the oil shale from the Western United States.
4. Refuse to develop coal gasification techniques.
5. Refuse to build any more refineries in the United States.
6. Listen to the anti-nuke moonbats and continue to delay building some nuclear power plants.

And while we're doing all of these things let's make sure to keep the subsidies for ethanol at a ridiculous high so that we can take more land out of food production to grow more corn to be turned into an alternative fuel. We burn more than a gallon of fossil fuels to produce a gallon of ethanol.

Meanwhile, China is off the Florida coast drilling for oil, while we all sit back and twiddle our thumbs as we watch the price of gasoline skyrocket all while listening to people like you b*tch about the evil oil companies. We have our own oil resources on our own soil, and yet we're not allowed to drill. Instead, we should sit back, bleed to death as a nation? I don't believe so.

****Don't take this personal Jack. It's just a debate on a forum.****
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Post by Jackdog »

JackB1 wrote:
Jared wrote: I'm impressed that you "read" a 40 minute video link in 10 minutes...you have skillz that I couldn't imagine. :wink:
He probably meant the 2nd link. That was a written article.
Your right. I haven't took a look at the video yet.
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Post by Jackdog »

Jared wrote:
And that oil shale link is interesting...if it's economically feasible, it sounds good to me.
I think so as well. I have been reading a lot about it. Canada is doing very well with it. That says something to me.
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JackDog wrote: First off,it was that oil man in Washington that signed the Fuel Economy Bill. All cars have to get 31.6 miles to the gallon by 2015. That's a good thing right?
A minimum of 31.6 mpg by 2015? Does anyone else find that hilarious?
It's a step in the right direction, but it's a newborn baby step. I remember when "economy cars" were all the rage 20 years ago and then we "forgot" about conserving gas and came the SUV/Minivan boom and gas milieage went into the sh*ter.
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Post by Jared »

JackDog wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
Jared wrote: I'm impressed that you "read" a 40 minute video link in 10 minutes...you have skillz that I couldn't imagine. :wink:
He probably meant the 2nd link. That was a written article.
Your right. I haven't took a look at the video yet.
I totally missed the 2nd link...my bad. (Jared now goes back to reading comprehension school.....) :)
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JackB1 wrote:
JackDog wrote: After meeting him I also started to listen to Neil Boortz and always seemed to agree with his view. His take on FairTax is brilliant. I started to read more about the party and liked what I learned.
I take my vote very serious. So my jump to the Libertarian Party took some time. Welcome!
Boortz claims to be a Libertarian but he's been an unapologetic shill for Bush during the past few years. He's also an arrogant blowhard with very little mastery of rhetoric and not much of a command of the facts or the issues.
True Libertarians don't even like Boortz. He didn't even support the Libertarian candidate during the last election. I do like his "fairtax" idea, but haven't heard any other good ideas come out of his egotistical mouth.

I'll never forget Boortz's great idea that we should "store" 11 Million illegal hispanics in the Superdome until we figure out what country they were from and deport them there". That's a brilliant man. Boortz also thinks "global warming" is a "democratic scare tactic". He should go take a look at the shrinking polar caps. Even Bush now somewhat "acknowledges" global warming.


8O
Well,I am a real Libertarian and I like Boortz. And his ratings say many people enjoy him as well.

As far as the polar caps go.

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/20 ... ilm-at-11/
eports from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that reveal that almost all the allegedly “lost” ice has come back. A NOAA report shows that ice levels which had shrunk from 5 million square miles in January 2007 to just 1.5 million square miles in October, are almost back to their original levels.
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JackB1 wrote:On a related note, why aren't we looking into the obscene profits that the oil companies are making, while most of us struggle to fill our tanks and feed out families? If you want the real answer to ANY question facing our country, it ALWAYS traces back to greed. We have an oil man in the white house and we wonder why oil prices have skyrocketed since he's been in office?
"Big Oil" companies are making between 7-8% profits. Have they had record profits? Yes, but they are so friggin huge that it's not hard to have record profits, especially when worldwide demand keeps rising. 8% is not obscene. Obscene would be the profit margins the health care industry is making. How come no one is rising up against bi health care? Because it's not the catchphrase of the day.
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Post by Jackdog »

Jared wrote:
JackDog wrote:
JackB1 wrote: He probably meant the 2nd link. That was a written article.
Your right. I haven't took a look at the video yet.
I totally missed the 2nd link...my bad. (Jared now goes back to reading comprehension school.....) :)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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JackDog wrote: Meanwhile, China is off the Florida coast drilling for oil, while we all sit back and twiddle our thumbs as we watch the price of gasoline skyrocket all while listening to people like you b*tch about the evil oil companies. We have our own oil resources on our own soil, and yet we're not allowed to drill. Instead, we should sit back, bleed to death as a nation? I don't believe so.
My point was, why spend all these billions investing in this "stop gap" technology to burn shale oil and use the money more wisely towards a energy resource that will last....not cost as much...be renewable....and be clean for the environment? One thing is certain...we have to DO SOMETHING. The Saudis basically just gave W and the U.S. a big F.U. by sending him home with his tail between his legs. They know they have us over a barrel and maybe this will force us into some type of action to become less dependant.
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Post by Jackdog »

JackB1 wrote:
One thing is certain...we have to DO SOMETHING. The Saudis basically just gave W and the U.S. a big F.U. by sending him home with his tail between his legs. They know they have us over a barrel and maybe this will force us into some type of action to become less dependant.
This is where you and I agree.

The Saudis are going to pump out 300,000 more barrels next month. Read this artical. It's interesting.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/busi ... oning.html
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Post by matthewk »

JackDog wrote:Instead, we should sit back, bleed to death as a nation? I don't believe so.
You may not think so, but MessiObama may think so. I heard a portion of his speech in Oregon voer the weekened. I don't have the exact quote but to paraphrase: "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees all the time and expect that other countries are going to say OK".

My response: "Yes We Can":)
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Post by Jackdog »

matthewk wrote:
JackDog wrote:Instead, we should sit back, bleed to death as a nation? I don't believe so.
You may not think so, but MessiObama may think so. I heard a portion of his speech in Oregon voer the weekened. I don't have the exact quote but to paraphrase: "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees all the time and expect that other countries are going to say OK".

My response: "Yes We Can":)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I watched some of his speech in Portland. It gave me the piss shivers.
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Post by wco81 »

If all these other sources such as ANWR and Bakken and oil sands and oil shale had as much potential as some claim, prices on oil futures contracts wouldn't be going up.

They were talking about shale, sands and coal gasification and clear diesel when oil was $60 a barrel instead of almost $130.

Either the amount of oil available from these sources is uncertain at best or the extraction is too costly to be profitable.

I read somewhere that the quality of the oil they would expect to get from oil shale would not be as good as light sweet crude.

Looks like industry isn't in a big hurry to harvest these sources yet.

As for the Saudis, they were saying a few years ago they had plenty of reserves and saw no sign of the end. Their recent actions could mean they're no longer confident or they see no reason to help lower market prices.

There's more and more talk of peak oil, and the idea that we've reached it. Also more talk of whether speculation has boosted prices beyond supply and demand fundamentals.
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Post by JackB1 »

JackDog wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
One thing is certain...we have to DO SOMETHING. The Saudis basically just gave W and the U.S. a big F.U. by sending him home with his tail between his legs. They know they have us over a barrel and maybe this will force us into some type of action to become less dependant.
This is where you and I agree.

The Saudis are going to pump out 300,000 more barrels next month. Read this artical. It's interesting.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/busi ... oning.html
Read the article, but I already heard most of this Fri on the news. It did give some more insights though, but nothing surprising. The Saudis are pumping solely due to worldwide supply and demand....not because Bush wants more. They also know he is on the way out and they have little to gain by succumbing to his wishes.
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