2008 NFL Season

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:56 pm

When it's all said and done, Rothlisberger will be a big winner and probably make the HoF, just like Bradshaw.

But a lot of games, he only has to put up 20 points.

If he'd played say with the Arizona Cardinals all these years, where he'd have to put up more like 30 points a game to be a consistent winner, would he have?

Maybe.

When they won it a few years back, Rothlisberger was way hot in those playoffs, throwing the ball into real tight windows and he allowed his defense to play with a lead against some high-powered offenses.

He can still make some awesome, pinpoint passes. And I'm not saying that any QB who throws for 200 yards would have won those SBs on those teams.

I think his playmaking is done out of necessity. When they need points, the Steelers go to spread formations. The extending plays is not textbook. He can elude tackles and it takes more than an arm to take him down.

But for the same reason that people deride Madden gameplay, because you really don't have a timing passing system and you make passing plays by scrambling, what Rothlisberger is doing makes football people shake their heads.

He's not always going to be able to pull it off. And any defense better than the Cardinals' probably would have tackled better, stay more disciplined and especially not let Holmes get open in the back of the end zone on two consecutive plays in crunch time -- although I will admit that pass was only going to be caught by Holmes or was going to be incomplete.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:17 pm

I definitely think Ben has had the advantage of playing for a winning team. That doesn't discount the fact that the guy just wins ball games, but then again, so did Trent Dilfer when he had the Baltimore D to carry him.

I think Ben, like Plunket will be OUT of the HOF unless he wins #3 (which is certainly possible). I just think the voters will look at the #1 ranked D and attribute the success of the Steelers to that, not necessarily Ben. Warner has the advantage of having a mediocre D...so that would have helped his cause. As it stands...Ben is a damn good QB...but will need another ring to guarantee enshrinement in my opinion.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:23 pm

wco81 wrote: And any defense better than the Cardinals' probably would have tackled better, stay more disciplined and especially not let Holmes get open in the back of the end zone on two consecutive plays in crunch time -- although I will admit that pass was only going to be caught by Holmes or was going to be incomplete.

There were four defenders near the corner of the endzone on that TD, three very close to Holmes. That was simply a perfect pass and perfect catch that beat a wall of defenders surrounding Holmes. Say what you will about Ben's stats, or lack thereof, but he now has two rings, with the second one being won with his star WR hobbled. Warner has been crap more seasons than not during his career and has only done well when paired with stud WRs. I am pretty sure that Ben could easily put up larger numbers if he had played for the systems Warner played under. Give Ben an up and down offense with the likes of Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Larry Fitzgerald, etc. and I think his numbers would be huge. The point is that Ben is a winner and plays within the system he is given extremely effectively. He is most certainly elite and will go down in NFL history as such. One last point, he is still relatively young and only getting better. There are not too many QBs who won two rings as early in their career as Ben already has accomplished.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:38 pm

wco81 wrote:He's not always going to be able to pull it off. And any defense better than the Cardinals' probably would have tackled better, stay more disciplined and especially not let Holmes get open in the back of the end zone on two consecutive plays in crunch time -- although I will admit that pass was only going to be caught by Holmes or was going to be incomplete.

You mean like the Ravens' defense, widely regarded as the best entering the playoffs this season? The same Ravens' defense against which Roethlisberger threw for 255 yards -- just 1 yard shy of his Super Bowl total?

OK. Sure.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:42 pm

There are legends like Bart Starr, Bob Griese, Bradshaw, who were big winners.

But from those eras, it's players like Unitas who's considered elite.

Or look at players like Fouts and Marino. Great QBs but didn't play with teams good enough to win championships.

Ben could be perfectly fine being just in the first group, rather than being in both groups, as some like Montana and Brady has been able to accomplish. Peyton may yet win another SB and join both groups or he may not.

Those are the true elite QBs.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:42 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:I think Ben, like Plunket will be OUT of the HOF unless he wins #3 (which is certainly possible). I just think the voters will look at the #1 ranked D and attribute the success of the Steelers to that, not necessarily Ben. Warner has the advantage of having a mediocre D...so that would have helped his cause. As it stands...Ben is a damn good QB...but will need another ring to guarantee enshrinement in my opinion.

The original debate wasn't whether Roethlisberger is Canton-bound. It was whether he is an elite NFL quarterback right now.

WCO says no; I say that's preposterous, and the numbers prove it.

You can say all you want about "What if he was in this system or that system?" Well, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. Roethlisberger plays for one of the more balanced offenses in the NFL, and he does his job within that scheme extremely well.

Roethlisberger is NOT Trent Dilfer, a one-season wonder of efficiency carried by a great defense. Ben has proven that by the consistent numbers he has posted for the first five seasons.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:45 pm

wco81 wrote:There are legends like Bart Starr, Bob Griese, Bradshaw, who were big winners.

But from those eras, it's players like Unitas who's considered elite.

Or look at players like Fouts and Marino. Great QBs but didn't play with teams good enough to win championships.

Ben could be perfectly fine being just in the first group, rather than being in both groups, as some like Montana and Brady has been able to accomplish. Peyton may yet win another SB and join both groups or he may not.

Those are the true elite QBs.

So where does Jim Kelly stand in your unique QB matrix?

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:47 pm

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:He's not always going to be able to pull it off. And any defense better than the Cardinals' probably would have tackled better, stay more disciplined and especially not let Holmes get open in the back of the end zone on two consecutive plays in crunch time -- although I will admit that pass was only going to be caught by Holmes or was going to be incomplete.
You mean like the Ravens' defense, widely regarded as the best entering the playoffs this season? The same Ravens' defense against which Roethlisberger threw for 255 yards -- just 1 yard shy of his Super Bowl total?

OK. Sure.

Take care,
PK

Yeah that Ravens team which was running on fumes, which had its best pass rusher hobbled, which didn't get enough help from its offense until late in the game.

The Ravens team which almost came back except for a decisive late game int. returned for a TD.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:48 pm

Hasn't Roethlisberger won more games than any QB in history over the first 5 years of their career? Pretty hard not to call that elite.

And Bob Griese was elite? The dude only passed the ball 11 times in Super Bowl VII, when they had their perfect season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id ... type=story

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:51 pm

wco81 wrote:
pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:He's not always going to be able to pull it off. And any defense better than the Cardinals' probably would have tackled better, stay more disciplined and especially not let Holmes get open in the back of the end zone on two consecutive plays in crunch time -- although I will admit that pass was only going to be caught by Holmes or was going to be incomplete.
You mean like the Ravens' defense, widely regarded as the best entering the playoffs this season? The same Ravens' defense against which Roethlisberger threw for 255 yards -- just 1 yard shy of his Super Bowl total?

OK. Sure.

Take care,
PK
Yeah that Ravens team which was running on fumes, which had its best pass rusher hobbled, which didn't get enough help from its offense until late in the game.

The Ravens team which almost came back except for a decisive late game int. returned for a TD.

If that win didn't impress you, then what about the prior win against the Ravens in December, when Roethlisberger took them straight down the field at the end of the game and completed the controversial "was the ball over the goal line or not" pass to Holmes? That drive was against the same great Ravens defense, before it "was running on fumes" and "had its best pass rusher hobbled."

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:54 pm

The elite QB's in the game today (in no order): Big Ben, Phillip Rivers, and Payton Manning. As much as Ben doesn't "wow" me, there's no denying it anymore. Ask anyone who plays fantasy footbal...

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:04 pm

First of all, I don't know how anyone could watch that Super Bowl and think the Cardinals outplayed the Steelers. Pittsburgh dominated that game for three quarters. The Cards made a great comeback and deserve a lot of credit, but that game was Pittsburgh's to lose.

Second, if Roethlisburger's next five seasons are similar to his first five, regardless of whether he actually returns to the SB, he will go to the HoF. I wouldn't say he is in now necessarily, because his career is still relatively young and a lot can happen. But his stats are definitely good enough when paired with two championships.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:05 pm

wco81 wrote:Yeah that Ravens team which was running on fumes, which had its best pass rusher hobbled, which didn't get enough help from its offense until late in the game.

The Ravens team which almost came back except for a decisive late game int. returned for a TD.

Funny, Roethlisberger went 22-for-40, 246 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT in a victory against Baltimore in Week 15. Guess that was a fluke, too.

Or did Baltimore's defense only emerge once the playoffs started?

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:06 pm

greggsand wrote:The elite QB's in the game today (in no order): Big Ben, Phillip Rivers, and Payton Manning. As much as Ben doesn't "wow" me, there's no denying it anymore. Ask anyone who plays fantasy footbal...

No Brees? Not convinced by 5,000 yards this season and 4,400 yards in both the 2006 and 2007 seasons?

No Brady? OK, he was hurt ...

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:14 pm

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:There are legends like Bart Starr, Bob Griese, Bradshaw, who were big winners.

But from those eras, it's players like Unitas who's considered elite.

Or look at players like Fouts and Marino. Great QBs but didn't play with teams good enough to win championships.

Ben could be perfectly fine being just in the first group, rather than being in both groups, as some like Montana and Brady has been able to accomplish. Peyton may yet win another SB and join both groups or he may not.

Those are the true elite QBs.
So where does Jim Kelly stand in your unique QB matrix?

Take care,
PK

There's nothing unique about it.

Kelly had big numbers but he never won the rings. More in the Marino camp.

Ben can definitely win games for his team. But not to the extent of other QBs, who often carry their teams. You can debate whether he has had to or whether he can.

Amid all the Rothslisberger hoopla in the glow of that Superbowl-winning drive, Cris Carter noted wistfully how much more efficient Ben would be if he learned to pull the trigger as soon as he hit the back foot.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:23 pm

wco81 wrote:Kelly had big numbers but he never won the rings. More in the Marino camp.

Ben can definitely win games for his team. But not to the extent of other QBs, who often carry their teams. You can debate whether he has had to or whether he can.

Amid all the Rothslisberger hoopla in the glow of that Superbowl-winning drive, Cris Carter noted wistfully how much more efficient Ben would be if he learned to pull the trigger as soon as he hit the back foot.

OK, let's play the WCO Six Degrees of NFL Separation Theory Game:

Kelly never won the rings so he's in the Marino camp. Big numbers but doesn't quite stack up. Big Ben is mediocre, even though he has two rings in his first five seasons, because Hall of Fame legend Cris Carter said he can't throw when his back foot is planted.

How many Super Bowl rings does Cris Carter have? The same number as Kelly and Marino, I believe.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:33 pm

As usual, you can't sustain substantive arguments so you try to turn it personal.

Yeah that's really persuasive.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:39 pm

wco81 wrote:As usual, you can't sustain substantive arguments so you try to turn it personal.

Yeah that's really persuasive.

There was absolutely nothing personal about it. I'm trying to decipher why you slightly degrade Kelly and Marino because they never won rings yet cite wide receiver Cris Carter as an authoritative source on quarterback technique, criticizing a guy who has won two rings in five seasons, yet Carter also has no hardware on his fingers, like Kelly and Marino.

It would be one thing if you only referenced Carter's critique. But to cite the criticism of a guy without a Super Bowl victory as part of your continued barrage against Roethlisberger, who has solid stats and two rings in five seasons, in the same thread that you also belittle two other players with huge numbers and no rings is a bit odd, to say the least.

In other words, guys like Kelly, Marino and Fouts are slighly diminished because they have no rings. But Cris Carter isn't?

And doesn't Carter's criticism of Big Ben reek of a touch of jealousy since a Super Bowl title was about the only thing Carter didn't achieve during his illustrious career, yet the "flawed" Roethlisberger now has two Super Bowl victories and a better QB rating than Brady in his first five seasons?

Just trying to understand your logic there. I'm all eyes.

Take care,
PK

Post by **Jared** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:44 pm

Umm, the as usual probably turned it just as personal, if not more so, than anything PK said. Just cut it out, everyone.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:52 pm

Jared wrote:Umm, the as usual probably turned it just as personal, if not more so, than anything PK said. Just cut it out, everyone.

The posts speak for themselves.

I'm trying to discuss how a player has performed. He tried to turn it into some idiosyncratic opinion not widely held so it's inferior to his opinion.

Pointing out this tactic may also be personal but it has to be pointed out nevertheless.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:53 pm

pk500 wrote:
greggsand wrote:The elite QB's in the game today (in no order): Big Ben, Phillip Rivers, and Payton Manning. As much as Ben doesn't "wow" me, there's no denying it anymore. Ask anyone who plays fantasy footbal...
No Brees? Not convinced by 5,000 yards this season and 4,400 yards in both the 2006 and 2007 seasons?

No Brady? OK, he was hurt ...

Take care,
PK

Yeah yeah, Brees, too. I knew I'd forget someone. Brady is now on wait & see-mode. Any rehab setbacks could easily keep him out til mid-season next year.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:55 pm

wco81 wrote:
Jared wrote:Umm, the as usual probably turned it just as personal, if not more so, than anything PK said. Just cut it out, everyone.
The posts speak for themselves.

I'm trying to discuss how a player has performed. He tried to turn it into some idiosyncratic opinion not widely held so it's inferior to his opinion.

Pointing out this tactic may also be personal but it has to be pointed out nevertheless.

I think the opinion not widely held in question is your opinion that Ben Roethlisberger is not one of the elite quarterbacks in the NFL today. Because he most certainly is by either criteria, numbers or Super Bowl victories.

So if you want to return to the topic at hand, let's discuss.

Take care,
PK

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:57 pm

Roethlisberger is without a doubt today one the elite at the qb position...

Brando70 wrote:
Second, if Roethlisburger's next five seasons are similar to his first five, regardless of whether he actually returns to the SB, he will go to the HoF. I wouldn't say he is in now necessarily, because his career is still relatively young and a lot can happen. But his stats are definitely good enough when paired with two championships.

GTHobbes wrote:Hasn't Roethlisberger won more games than any QB in history over the first 5 years of their career? Pretty hard not to call that elite.

And Bob Griese was elite? The dude only passed the ball 11 times in Super Bowl VII, when they had their perfect season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id ... type=story

Yes and Yes...

Unless he completely goes in the tank hes on His way to Canton.

Chooouuu!!! chooo!!!!!!! the Big Ben train to Canton is coming...

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:36 pm

Who was it last week that said there seemed to be minimal interest in this matchup outside of people living in Pittsburgh or Arizona? Glad to say I told you so...the TV ratings were through the roof. (Never underestimate the draw of Steeler Nation!

)

"Super Bowl XLIII now called most watched TV program ever"

"Upon further review, NBC officials announced today the Steelers-Cardinals Super Bowl XLIII attracted the largest audience in television history.

Using official national ratings supplied by Nielsen Media Research -- overnights released yesterday termed the 42.1 ratings around average by Super Bowl standards -- NBC recalculated the final numbers and concluded that a record 151.6 million viewers watched at least part of the Steelers' 27-23 triumph over Arizona on Sunday. It was a figure 3.3 million higher than the previous NFL championship, New York Giants-New England Patriots one year earlier.

NBC said 98.7 million viewers were tuned into its Super broadcast on average, which likewise topped the previous year's projected total."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09034/946633-100.stm

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:43 pm

Yeah, it was a ratings slam dunk. Glad to see you don't need the Cowboys or Giants to get people watching. Viva Cardinals!