Soccer thread 07/08

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:14 pm

davet010 wrote:1976 for the League Cup - and I was watching it at the time, at the age of 9.

You could, if you were splitting hairs, count City's winning of the old League One in 2002...because it was the last year before it became 'The Championship', the trophy given to City was the one that the actual League Champions used to get before the start of the Premiership in 1992.

So City's trophy cabinet still holds a major trophy, as there was a new trophy for the Championship

And I note you didn't contradict my prediction

Bastard! Called me on it!

I'm not going to jinx Liverpool so I'll predict we'll get relegated.

But seriously (back to Shinawatra) - what's the deal here? I think Mark Hughes is a great young manager (even if he did play for United and Chelsea...) but without truckloads of cash I'm not sure how he's supposed to do a better job than Sven. Or was Sven fired for reasons other than team performance? And what the hell is he a doctor of?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:41 pm

Wednesday with the League Cup in 91, still better than Man City. Plus, we still hold the English record for facists on one team.

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:35 pm

fsquid wrote:Plus, we still hold the English record for facists on one team.

Now that's the spirit!

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:13 pm

Read a piece in Le Monde suggesting that the 6+5 rule may be more meaningful given that England is out of Euro 08.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:15 pm

fsquid wrote:Wednesday with the League Cup in 91, still better than Man City. Plus, we still hold the English record for facists on one team.

I thought that was Millwall.

Oh sorry that's the team, and not the supporters, you're referencing. My bad!

Best wishes,

Doug

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:06 pm

Dave , is it anything to do with money ? dont know any details obviously but im sure Sven gets more than a mark Hughes.

Im suprised at Hughes but i think he will be great for City.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:24 pm

wco81 wrote:Read a piece in Le Monde suggesting that the 6+5 rule may be more meaningful given that England is out of Euro 08.

As an ardent England supporter I can see both sides of the 6+5 rule argument and I'm not sure which I like better. Letting foreigners play as is gives the english kids more of a chance to see what they are up against and maybe brings up our level of play (OK obviously that hasn't happened...) but it also takes away from their playing time on the first team. The flip side is we'll weaken English teams versus Spanish and Italian squads and their chances of doing anything like they did this year with a Chelsea ManU UEFA Championship.

Coin flip!

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:33 pm

Protectionism in sports is as misguided and malevolent a force as it is in any trade.

On a lighter note, has anyone seen an online Euro pool or fantasy league? Any interest?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:48 pm

epltalk.com has a fantasy league going.

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:20 am

Macca00 wrote:One of the reasons behind the 6+5 rule is that it's supposed to stop big teams from getting a monopoly by forcing them to have homegrown players which is nice....except Man U have more English players than any of the top 4 and have paid top dollar/euro/pound for them. English player values are already inflated so if this rule goes into effect you'll see things like Darren Bent going for 17 million pounds....oh...wait..nevermind. Anyway, nothing will really change - the big teams will still be able to buy the 'best' players, except they'll be English (and therefore not really that good anyway).

Arsenal will also cease to exist.

I'll quote myself as to why I think the 6+5 rule is silly for preventing monopolies by club teams.

As for helping out national teams (i.e. England) I think that's a fallacy too. I don't think just because they get playing time the fringe English players will suddenly become good. If players are young, GOOD and English they'll get playing time - all managers would rather have domestic players from their youth system rather than paying for foreign players. But I don't think forcing those managers to play English players that wouldn't make the grade will suddenly make those players great.

In fact, the foreign influx has helped English players and guys like Lampard, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Rio Ferdinand, Peter Crouch got better after leaving predominantly English teams and going to teams with MORE foreigners.

Even highly touted young players that couldn't get a game 'because of foreigners' like Bentley, Glen Johnson and Jermaine Pennant haven't exactly set the world on fire when they have left for other teams (and besides, they DID get playing time, just at other English teams).

Besides, look at Inter, Roma, Juve & Fiorentina (1, 2, 3 & 4 in Serie A) - on the last day of the season (when they had to win to clinch the league) Inter played with only TWO Italians, Roma with seven, Juve with four, Viola with four.

That's a total of 17 Italians out of 44.

On the last day of the EPL the top 4 had 12 Englishmen out of 44.

The numbers are pretty damn similar (the number of Englishmen goes up if you include subs that came on) and yet Italy, with all the foreign players, still won the World Cup.

(The only reason I bothered to do all this counting is because I'm up watching the Stanley Cup finals in OT...for f' sake can someone score already!?!)

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:25 am

6+5 is a contravention of EU law, more specifically Art 39 of the EU treaty, which prohibits labour discrimination on the basis of nationality.

Chance of EU making exception for football - zero.

Chance that Blatter ends up looking like a self-important, fundamentally corrupt w*nker again - 2 billion to 1 on.

The only chance this has of getting through is if UEFA adopt the same methodology that they do in the CL, where so many players have to be 'home-grown', because then it technically doesn't matter what nationality they are. We'll see.

As for Sven, while I was surprised once the rumours about him started, but looking back rationally I think the team really slumped after Xmas (City would have been 15th in a 'points-after-Xmas league'), and after the Birmingham defeat, he came out to the press and said that he didn't know what to do during the game, not too good after losing to a team that got relegated.

As for Hughes, we'll see - he's not in post yet. One thing is for certain, that if Allardyce gets the job then attendance next year would drop below 30,000.

macsomjrr · Post by **macsomjrr** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:28 am

That some impressive math Macca

Foreign players definitely elevate the english game in the Premier league and they also give English fans a chance to see some of the greatest footballers in the world on a regular basis. Can't argue with that.

Seems like England is just having a bit of a freak out over the national teams struggles. Good news is that they up'ed their game considerably against weak US and T&T sides although they need to keep that going in September and beyond.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:42 am

Lock up your wives, gents - Sven is on his way to the Americas as the new coach of Mexico.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:15 am

But he doesn't chain smoke

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:26 am

Mark Hughes signs 3 year deal to manage Man City, with a payoff of about £5m to Blackburn.

Reaction amongst the City faithful to date has been a recognition of his work at Blackburn, together with some lingering hate for the fact that he was a proper dirty b*stard on the field and played for the Red Pest.

Still, I suspect that David Bentley and Roque Santa Cruz will be sat by their telephones, waiting for a chat with their old mate.

Those of you who visit the UK during the summer may be able to catch the practice calls in the wind - "Hughes Out !!". One commentator during the 70's, remarking on the City fans legendary self-deprecation, noted that just as the appearance of certain birds denoted the true start of spring or summer, so the start of the football season could be identified to within its first 5 minutes by the hearing of the first chant of "Swales Out!!" by the City faithful, referring to the Chairman of the time.

I remember going to the City club shop in 1994/95 when shirt numbering and lettering was introduced - the shop had a sign in to say that there were two things that would not be printed on the back of a replica shirt without exception....one was 'Munich' and the other was any variation of "Swales Out!".

The keener football historians amongst you will then note that Swales's replacement by Francis Lee in 1995 was then followed by the most appalling case of 'the sublime to the ridiculous' that could be imagined, as the mooted managerial appointment of Franz Beckanbauer (big mate of Lee's, according to the local rag) became the reality of appointing Alan Ball...cue disastrous season ending in relegation and the selling of anyone able to provide leadership on the pitch. One of my favourite City experiences ever is going to watch them at Stoke in 96/97, the day before he was sacked....he'd also managed Stoke to a relegation as well, so both sets of supporters were united in their vitriolic abuse of him, culminating in the entire ground standing to the request to 'stand up, if you think Ball's a tw*t'.

Still, here's hoping that City's management have got it right this time !

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:08 pm

Reports say Altidore has been sold to Villareal for $10m. Deal won't be official until July 1, and Villareal may turn around and loan him to Huelva. This is by far the biggest fee for an MLS player ever paid.

Great opportunity for Jozy in a good league. Good timing too, as reports say he was becoming lazy and complacent in MLS. Seeing the bench in Europe has a way of kicking such players in the ass (in a good way).

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:13 pm

Naples39 wrote:Reports say Altidore has been sold to Villareal for $10m. Deal won't be official until July 1, and Villareal may turn around and loan him to Huelva. This is by far the biggest fee for an MLS player ever paid.

Great opportunity for Jozy in a good league. Good timing too, as reports say he was becoming lazy and complacent in MLS. Seeing the bench in Europe has a way of kicking such players in the ass (in a good way).

That fee strikes me as incredibly high. I like Jozy a lot, but wow...

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:36 pm

RobVarak wrote:
Naples39 wrote:Reports say Altidore has been sold to Villareal for $10m. Deal won't be official until July 1, and Villareal may turn around and loan him to Huelva. This is by far the biggest fee for an MLS player ever paid.

Great opportunity for Jozy in a good league. Good timing too, as reports say he was becoming lazy and complacent in MLS. Seeing the bench in Europe has a way of kicking such players in the ass (in a good way).
That fee strikes me as incredibly high. I like Jozy a lot, but wow...

Weak dollar.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:31 am

Great, so he goes over to Spain and is loaned out to an awful club in the back end of nowhere (and yes, I've been to Huelva) who just about managed to stave off relegation due to the implosion of Real Zaragoza (whose squad at the start of the season included players like Pablo Aimar and d'Alessandro, and who were predicted to finish in the top 6).

Nice one.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:17 am

RobVarak wrote:
Naples39 wrote:Reports say Altidore has been sold to Villareal for $10m. Deal won't be official until July 1, and Villareal may turn around and loan him to Huelva. This is by far the biggest fee for an MLS player ever paid.

Great opportunity for Jozy in a good league. Good timing too, as reports say he was becoming lazy and complacent in MLS. Seeing the bench in Europe has a way of kicking such players in the ass (in a good way).
That fee strikes me as incredibly high. I like Jozy a lot, but wow...

If he's only half as good as Marcus Bent, its a bargain, right?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:48 am

Raise your hand if your club hasn't been thrown out of Europe.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:02 am

<DT waves hand frantically>

Apparently massive human rights violations by your owner don't count as far as UEFA are concerned - unless Platini has already surrendered and is collaborating.

Seems odd that CSKA got thrown out for having huge debts.....I am presuming that Liverpool and Man U will be expelled tomorrow then.

I would also have thought that one way that an FA could help a club out of a heavily indebted position is to let them take part in the Chumps League ?

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:20 am

See the greasy Portuguese show pony now wants to leave the Theatre of Dreams for Castle Greyskull (aka Real Madrid).

And here's me thinking no one would ever want to leave the 'Biggest Club in the World' (TM)

Still, maybe the Glazers could use it to pay off some of the 'Biggest Debt in the World'.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:27 am

Ronaldinho and Jo to city?

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:42 am

How much leverage do players have to force transfers?

Is there free agency or if you can find a club willing to pay a high transfer fee, the player just lobbies for it?

Which party initiates the transfers more often, the players or the clubs?

I guess C. Ronaldo is the footballer of the year?

So what's worth more to the club, keeping a key player to defend their CL title or whatever transfer fee he may fetch?