OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

[Teal]

He's not running for the left wing-he's running for the West Wing...

OK, who gave Jesse Jackson access to Teal's DSP account?

Oooooohhh...burn... Boy, now that's offensive! I'd rather you had called me Johnny Cochran...

[greggsand]

Unless John McCain wins, we won't see Sarah Palin again. She'll probably run for Senate in AK and be the lightening rod for the base but from now to the election, we won't see her.

Couldn't disagree more. Palin is the future of the GOP. If she can combine her folksy, Reagan-esque charm and superb looks in a skirt with more experience and a tighter grasp on issues, she will be a very formidable contender for the top of the GOP ticket in 2012 if Obama wins next month.

The GOP can sell Palin again in four years because they know she was pushed on the national stage as a virtual unknown. Americans really don't know much about her. Four more years of experience and accomplishment in politics will only aid her, not hurt her.

She's a long-term player in the party, no doubt.

Take care,
PK

I disagree, if McCain loses, she becomes a trivia question. She'll become the big "what if" question from republicans. "What if McCain chose someone else?" The finger pointing will come faster than u can say "Ya betcha"!

[RobVarak]

I disagree, if McCain loses, she becomes a trivia question. She'll become the big "what if" question from republicans. "What if McCain chose someone else?" The finger pointing will come faster than u can say "Ya betcha"!

That's a total misread of the GOP's opinion of Palin. Even as she was being kicked around like Paris Hilton last week, the core of the Republican party was (with the notable exception of Kathleen Parker) still behind her. Hell, they were blaming McCain and his handlers.

She's a Republican rock star at this point and with good reason. She's drawing huge popular support at her rallies. Plus her mere presence sends the left and the media into convulsions. That's another similarity between her and Reagan LOL

She's a force beyond November no matter what happens.

[F308GTB]

I think they both did a fine job, but I just don't believe a lot of what Biden says. The "Home Depot, where I spend a lot of time" was a lame attempt to sound middle class, and I don't buy it.

That was no worse than Palin's continued claims to be "middle class" when she is worth over $1.2 M, with a beautiful waterfront home on the water in Alaska and her own personal seaplane.

Anyone that believes ANY of these politicians are in the same financial boat as the true middle class is just kidding themselves.

Don't forget net worth is a composition of assets and debts. The biggest chunks will be 401k and a house. For her and her husband, with a house, and combined salary of around $200k, that $1.2 million is certainly reasonable. They may be upper middle class, but they are closer to middle class than the others in the campaign.

What I find laughable is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Joe_Biden's_net_worth which puts his net worth at under $300k. With a salary of nearly that per year, that makes him a spendthrift and/or financial buffoon.

By the way, your hero Obama isn't doing too bad himself - http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/mon ... mag/5.html

He's got a higher net worth than Palin so she's actually closer to middle class than Obama. Combine that with that modest $1.9 million house and you have a true champion of the middle class.

[RobVarak]

He's got a higher net worth than Palin so she's actually closer to middle class than Obama. Combine that with that modest $1.9 million house and you have a true champion of the middle class.

He's a Chicago pol. You have to figure in a bump of at least 30% for off the books income.

[matthewk]

That was no worse than Palin's continued claims to be "middle class" when she is worth over $1.2 M, with a beautiful waterfront home on the water in Alaska and her own personal seaplane.

Anyone that believes ANY of these politicians are in the same financial boat as the true middle class is just kidding themselves.

She wasn't born with $1.2 M. Where did you get the $1.2 M number from? I'm curious as to how that number was arrived at. She's the Governor of a state with a husband that takes in almost $100,000 himself. I'm sure they are doing very well, but it's not like they own 13 homes

She still does things like drives herself around. She is a lot more in tune with the middle class than "Home Depot, where I spend a lot of my time" Biden. I bet Palin knows her way around a Home Depot better than he does.

I have a waterfront home and a boat (but not worth $1.2M). I guess that means I'm not middle class either.

[XXXIV]

She's a force beyond November no matter what happens.

Agreed...Shes in for the very long run...The haters will keep crying about her til they die.

[JRod]

Unless John McCain wins, we won't see Sarah Palin again. She'll probably run for Senate in AK and be the lightening rod for the base but from now to the election, we won't see her.

Couldn't disagree more. Palin is the future of the GOP. If she can combine her folksy, Reagan-esque charm and superb looks in a skirt with more experience and a tighter grasp on issues, she will be a very formidable contender for the top of the GOP ticket in 2012 if Obama wins next month.

The GOP can sell Palin again in four years because they know she was pushed on the national stage as a virtual unknown. Americans really don't know much about her. Four more years of experience and accomplishment in politics will only aid her, not hurt her.

She's a long-term player in the party, no doubt.

Take care,
PK

I meant to say from now to November.

[pk500]

I disagree, if McCain loses, she becomes a trivia question. She'll become the big "what if" question from republicans. "What if McCain chose someone else?" The finger pointing will come faster than u can say "Ya betcha"!

Gregg:

I would agree with you if McCain was well ahead in all polls before the Palin pick and then dropped to 10 points behind Obama after she was selected.

But John McCain won't lose this election due to Sarah Palin. If he loses, it will be due to John McCain and people's perception of the GOP's handling of THE hot-button issue right now, the economy and financial crisis.

Think about it: When is the last time the GOP had a party leader with folksy appeal? Ronald Reagan, the current saint of the party. The GOP has been searching for someone like Palin since 1988, and now it has her and won't let her go.

Take care,
PK

[matthewk]

I don't know your source for the $1.2 M Jack, but I found a good one:
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/01 ... h-million/

Yes, she and her husband are worth $1.2 M. Did you really think a VP candidate would be a Wal Mart greeter?

In Joe's many stops to Home Depot was he ever on a project like this:
"Todd Palin built the house with friends who were contractors".

They have a 3,500 sq. ft. home. That's a nice size home, but a lot of McMansions are easily that large now.

They take in about $200,000 combined each year. Again, they are doing well, but the Biden's make over $300,000 annually.

If anything, they are proof of living the American dream. Neither came into money, they both earned it.

[RobVarak]

Maybe we should have our candidates debate in French too. It's not like what they're saying about the facts has any grounding in reality anyway Here's just a sampling from Factcheck.org. I'm just going with the summary as the analysis is way too long LOL

Palin said, "We're circulating about $700 billion a year into foreign countries" for imported oil, repeating an outdated figure often used by McCain. At oil prices current as of Sept. 30, imports are running at a rate of about $493 billion per year.


Biden claimed that McCain said in a magazine article that he wanted to deregulate the health care industry as the banking industry had been. That’s taking McCain’s words out of context. As we’ve said before, he was talking specifically about his proposal to allow the sale of health insurance across state lines.


Biden said five times that McCain's tax plan would give oil companies a "$4 billion tax cut." As we’ve noted previously, McCain’s plan would cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent — for ALL corporations, not just oil companies. Biden uses a Democratic think tank's estimate for what the rate change is worth to the five largest U.S. oil companies.


Palin threw out an old canard when she criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy bill and said, “that’s what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks.” It’s a false attack Sen. Hillary Clinton used against Obama in the primary, and McCain himself has hurled. It’s true that the bill gave some tax breaks to oil companies, but it also took away others. And according to the Congressional Research Service, the bill created a slight net increase in taxes for the oil industry.


Biden said that Iraq had an "$80 billion surplus." The country was once projected to have as much as a $79 billion surplus, but no more. The Iraqis have $29 billion in the bank, and could have $47 billion to $59 billion by the end of the year, as we noted when Obama used the incorrect figure. A $21 billion supplemental spending bill, passed by the Iraqi legislature in August, knocked down the old projection.


Biden said four times that McCain had voted 20 times against funding alternative energy. However, in analyzing the Obama campaign's list of votes after the first presidential debate, we found the number was actually 11. In the other instances the Obama-Biden campaign cites, McCain voted not against alternative energy but against mandatory use of alternative energy, or he voted in favor of allowing exemptions from these mandates.

Palin mistakenly claimed that troop levels in Iraq had returned to “pre-surge” levels. Levels are gradually coming down but current plans would have levels higher than pre-surge numbers through early next year, at least.

Biden incorrectly said “John McCain voted the exact same way” as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. The two were actually on opposite sides.


Palin repeated a false claim that Obama once voted in favor of higher taxes on “families” making as little as $42,000 a year. He did not. The budget bill in question called for an increase only on singles making that amount, but a family of four would not have been affected unless they made at least $90,000 a year.

Biden wrongly claimed that McCain “voted the exact same way” as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it. Biden was referring to an amendment that didn't address taxes at that income level.

Palin claimed McCain’s health care plan would be “budget neutral,” costing the government nothing. Independent budget experts estimate McCain's plan would cost tens of billions each year, though details are too fuzzy to allow for exact estimates.


Biden wrongly claimed that McCain had said "he wouldn't even sit down" with the government of Spain. Actually, McCain didn't reject a meeting, but simply refused to commit himself one way or the other during an interview.

Palin wrongly claimed that “millions of small businesses” would see tax increases under Obama’s tax proposals. At most, several hundred thousand business owners would see increases.

[Jackdog]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the religious right and left? I don't get that argument. The Democrats have no problem campaigning in black churches and enjoying the mingling of church and politics when it helps them.

Is it a Roe vs Wade issue? 99% of Christains on both sides of the aisle are pro life. I think the same can be said for Catholics. Democrats have 8 million registered voters who are Catholics. (18 million Democrats to 10 million Republicans). So they have got to pander to the Catholics for those votes right? I remember hearing this fall that Biden was barred from communion in his hometown of Scranton because of his support for abortion rights. So maybe those votes are still up in the air. Anyhow what's the beef? Someone school me up.

[JRod]

I disagree, if McCain loses, she becomes a trivia question. She'll become the big "what if" question from republicans. "What if McCain chose someone else?" The finger pointing will come faster than u can say "Ya betcha"!

That's a total misread of the GOP's opinion of Palin. Even as she was being kicked around like Paris Hilton last week, the core of the Republican party was (with the notable exception of Kathleen Parker) still behind her. Hell, they were blaming McCain and his handlers.

She's a Republican rock star at this point and with good reason. She's drawing huge popular support at her rallies. Plus her mere presence sends the left and the media into convulsions. That's another similarity between her and Reagan LOL

She's a force beyond November no matter what happens.

There's one other thing to consider, where the country will be in 2012 and 2016.

The country is shifting back to the left, mostly because of 8 disastrous years of Bush. Should there be a large financial meltdown from now to January or should McCain win and the slide continues. That could potentially make politicians too far right to get elected.

For Sarah Palin to win a national election, she would need to go Democrats and Independents to vote for her. She has support with the base but they aren't as powerful as they were in 2000 and 2004.

If the country shifts lift, and Palin doesn't do anything stupid, she might have a chance but she would have to move to the center.

[RobVarak]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the religious right and left?

The music! Give me Mahalia singing Tom Dorsey spirituals any day of the week.

[pk500]

That was no worse than Palin's continued claims to be "middle class" when she is worth over $1.2 M, with a beautiful waterfront home on the water in Alaska and her own personal seaplane.

A net worth of $1.2 million isn't that much, especially when you consider the inflated price of homes and land in Alaska.

Hell, if you own a home and property in a major U.S. metropolitan area, have a solid job and fiscal discipline, including lengthy, maxed-out funding of your retirement account (at least before the last two weeks!), your net worth is going to be at least $500,000.

I bet there are more than a handful of us here at DSP with a net worth of $500,000. Yet I bet nearly all of us call ourselves "middle class" or "upper middle class."

People hear the term "net worth" and automatically equate it with annual salary, which is wrong.

Take care,
PK

[Jackdog]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the religious right and left?

The music! Give me Mahalia singing Tom Dorsey spirituals any day of the week.

for this line and for the Jesse Jackson one.

[pk500]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the religious right and left? I don't get that argument. The Democrats have no problem campaigning in black churches and enjoying the mingling of church and politics when it helps them.

Is it a Roe vs Wade issue? 99% of Christains on both sides of the aisle are pro life. I think the same can be said for Catholics. Democrats have 8 million registered voters who are Catholics. (18 million Democrats to 10 million Republicans). So they have got to pander to the Catholics for those votes right? I remember hearing this fall that Biden was barred from communion in his hometown of Scranton because of his support for abortion rights. So maybe those votes are still up in the air. Anyhow what's the beef? Someone school me up.

I think many Democrats who are Catholics are "cafeteria Democrats" as much as they are "cafeteria Catholics." Just as many American Catholics attend Mass regularly despite disagreeing with some Vatican positions, they also continue to vote Democratic despite that party's insistence on a pro-choice position.

As a devout Catholic, that always been one of the great paradoxes of the American church to me. You'll hear some bishops decry the GOP for its position on the war, yet the other major party believes in abortion rights. If you're opposed to the party that kills as an instrument of government policy, then why aren't you opposed to the party that allows the killing of unborn children?

Yet another reason why the keys to the gates of political power and the sanctuary always should be cut by different locksmiths.

Take care,
PK

[Teal]

Last night's debate destroyed last week's debate:
http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/10/vp-debate-ratin.html

Destroyed all since 1992, in fact.

[Feanor]

I don't think 99% of Christians in this country are pro-life. 66% is more like it.

Most people in the country identify themselves as Christians, but polls show roughly equal support for the pro-choice & pro-life positions.

[Jackdog]

I think many Democrats who are Catholics are "cafeteria Democrats" as much as they are "cafeteria Catholics." Just as many American Catholics attend Mass regularly despite disagreeing with some Vatican positions, they also continue to vote Democratic despite that party's insistence on a pro-choice position.

As a devout Catholic, that always been one of the great paradoxes of the American church to me. You'll hear some bishops decry the GOP for its position on the war, yet the other major party believes in abortion rights. If you're opposed to the party that kills as an instrument of government policy, then why aren't you opposed to the party that allows the killing of unborn children?

Yet another reason why the keys to the gates of political power and the sanctuary always should be cut by different locksmiths.

Take care,
PK

Yeah no doubt. Thanks PK. I am curious. Are the bishops against all wars or just Iraq? Not trying to be an asshole here just interested in what the teachings are.

[pk500]

Last night's debate destroyed last week's debate:
http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/10/vp-debate-ratin.html

Destroyed all since 1992, in fact.

Damn, that's a Super Bowl-sized rating. It's encouraging that the U.S. electorate seems to care.

The ratings would have climbed to 65 percent if Palin wore a deep V-neck top.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Yeah no doubt. Thanks PK. I am curious. Are the bishops against all wars or just Iraq? Not trying to be an asshole here just interested in what the teachings are.

I'm pretty sure the Church's position, at least in modern times, has been anti-war. There is that small issue of The Crusades, though ...

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

Yeah no doubt. Thanks PK. I am curious. Are the bishops against all wars or just Iraq? Not trying to be an asshole here just interested in what the teachings are.

I'm pretty sure the Church's position, at least in modern times, has been anti-war. There is that small issue of The Crusades, though ...

Take care,
PK

Their tone is very different, though, than anti-war movements -- not political. Usually, the appeal for peace is in terms of having compassion for the innocent victims of war, and for a respect for human life.

[RobVarak]

Yeah no doubt. Thanks PK. I am curious. Are the bishops against all wars or just Iraq? Not trying to be an asshole here just interested in what the teachings are.

I'm pretty sure the Church's position, at least in modern times, has been anti-war. There is that small issue of The Crusades, though ...

Take care,
PK

I remember in 8th grade at Catholic school we were required to slog through the Catholich Bishop's jeremiad against nuclear war. A better argument for keeping the Church out of international affairs has seldom been written.

Their tone is very different, though, than anti-war movements -- not political. Usually, the appeal for peace is in terms of having compassion for the innocent victims of war, and for a respect for human life.

Usually, but there has always been a strong crossover between idiot, guitar-mass peacenick Catholics and the broader anti-war movement. Believe me, I had to deal with these morons for years coming into my junior high and high schools under the guise of discussions of "social responsibility" and the "living gospel" which were thinly lacquered theoretical cover for leftist propoganda.

I wasn't always very popular with my teachers. One year they brought in some hairy hippy who had been arrested during an anti-nuke protest. My first question was that if she was so committed to the cause why didn't she keep her ass in prison and do a hunger strike rather than stinking up my classroom. Well, I may have been slightly more diplomatic than that...but not much.

[Brando70]

I don't think Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict fit the hairy hippie description.

It's true that there's a lot of "social justice" types in the Church, probably because there are a lot of "social justice" types in the New Testament

And I'll see your comment and raise you the time we had to explain what gerbil sharing was to the priest who taught my faith and morality class.