Hey how bout the weak ass Big Ten?? 2 in the Final Four!!!!!

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:25 pm

In the words of the late great Jack Buck in calling Gibsons homer in the 88' series between the Dodgers and A's...." I don't believe what I just saw!"

As a central Illinoisian, about an hour from Champaign, that was the best comeback I have ever seen. Down 15 with 4:03 left against a very good Zona team. Seemed like Zona, started to play conservative with a few minutes left. Playing "not to lose." Illini did it without Augustine who fouled out, and Head on one leg.

Great year for the Illini! Both games today were exceptional.

Jeff

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:43 pm

Most of you will understand how rare an occasion this is.

Words fail me.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:51 pm

sf_z wrote:Awww sh1t. We were a BBQ and the kids wanted to watch a movie. I relented at 3:45 to go in the 2nd w/ Arizona up 13 or so. Missed the whole thing.

Hey Chris you can drop the avatar man. The boys blew a 3-0 lead and got knocked out of the Frozen four today. It pains me to look at it.

I hope the Badgers pull off a big upset Sunday.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:05 am

Is it just me, or did it look like Deron Williams was using the Madden spin move every time he would drive to the basket during that run? The way he would plant and spin while dribbling looked very familiar

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:44 am

I'm not defending any conference, I'm just saying the Big 10 has NOT beaten anyone besides Duke up until today, and Illinois has just defended their seed.

Tell me who Wisconsin and Michigan State (minus Duke) has beaten that is a top 25 team.

Go ahead.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:45 am

FloridaGators wrote:BDoughty,

Getting to the Final Four is what people remember and how you measure a conference. Your fourth win might actually be the win that makes your team beat a legitimate team, in Wisconsin's case.

If you put Wisconsin on a floor and asked them to play Northern Iowa, Bucknell and NC State and they swept the series, would you be impressed?

What about Michigan State defeating Old Dominion, Vermont, and Duke? The Duke game sure, but the others?

Same with Illinois, the supposed best team in America's, victories over Fairleigh Dickinson, Nevada, and Wisconsin-Milwaukee.

Before the Elite 8 the Big 10 had ONE stand out victory.

You really don't quite grasp the whole tournament concept. While I was still leary of Illinois going into the game I did not blame them for the teams they played getting up to the Elite 8. They played the teams that the bracket had them playing. Same as Wisconsin and Michigan St.

To say people only rememember the Final Four is rediculous. Even coaches at mid-majors have made their careers by advancing teams to the sweet sixteen.

I am pretty sure people still remember Gonzaga getting to the Second Round a few years ago and almost pulling off an upset against Arizona. One of the best basketball games I ever saw.

Many still remember Princeton, a 16 seed taking Georgetown to down to the wire only to lose 50-49 back in '89.

Or Princeton upsetting UCLA in the first round in Pete Carrils final year with the Tigers.

People will remember Valparaso winning on a last second shot by the coaches son.

Tennessee seems to be impressed enough with Wisconsin-Milwaukee's coach Bruce Pearl for taking them to the Sweet Sixteen. Eastern Kentuckys coach Travis Ford is going to UMass after leading them to the Tourney and gving Kentucky a good game. Tubby Smith caught his big break when he led Tulsa to a sweet sixteen and got a job at Georgia, which in turn led him to Kentucky.

The list goes on and on and on.... Many of my personal favorites memories are those of upsets in the first two rounds of the tournament. That is what makes March Madness great. If simply getting to the final four was a measure of a conference then why did the Missouri Valley Conference get three teams in the tournament? I don't recall seeing any of them in previous Final Fours.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:47 am

ScoopBrady wrote:Gators you just don't get it. In the tournament it doesn't matter who you've played it matters if you won or not. Ask Syracuse, Boston College, or Kansas about some of these 'alleged' easy-win teams you're talking about. The deeper you get into the tournament the more impressive it is no matter who you played to get there. At some point who you played had to have beaten some team that you would consider worthy. The fact that no other conference has 3 teams remaining speaks volumes. Just give it up already. Your logic would dictate that we shouldn't be impressed with any Super Bowl champion, NBA Champion, or Stanley Cup champion that finished with the best record since they all had the easiest roads to the championship. Wins are wins and there are no Little Sisters of the Blind playing in the NCAA tournament.

My point is that Michigan State, Illinois and Wisconsin combined have been favored in every game besides the Duke game and have won like they are supposed to. Why should I give credit to a conference that is just doing what they are supposed to be doing? Beating underdogs?

No, I'm not out hear praising UNC and Kentucky for doing the same thing.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:51 am

bdoughty wrote:
FloridaGators wrote:BDoughty,

Getting to the Final Four is what people remember and how you measure a conference. Your fourth win might actually be the win that makes your team beat a legitimate team, in Wisconsin's case.

If you put Wisconsin on a floor and asked them to play Northern Iowa, Bucknell and NC State and they swept the series, would you be impressed?

What about Michigan State defeating Old Dominion, Vermont, and Duke? The Duke game sure, but the others?

Same with Illinois, the supposed best team in America's, victories over Fairleigh Dickinson, Nevada, and Wisconsin-Milwaukee.

Before the Elite 8 the Big 10 had ONE stand out victory.

You really don't quite grasp the whole tournament concept. While I was still leary of Illinois going into the game I did not blame them for the teams they played getting up to the Elite 8. They played the teams that the bracket had them playing. Same as Wisconsin and Michigan St.

To say people only rememember the Final Four is rediculous. Even coaches at mid-majors have made their careers by advancing teams to the sweet sixteen.

I am pretty sure people still remember Gonzaga getting to the Second Round a few years ago and almost pulling off an upset against Arizona. One of the best basketball games I ever saw.

Many still remember Princeton, a 16 seed taking Georgetown to down to the wire only to lose 50-49 back in '89.

Or Princeton upsetting UCLA in the first round in Pete Carrils final year with the Tigers.

People will remember Valparaso winning on a last second shot by the coaches son.

Tennessee seems to be impressed enough with Wisconsin-Milwaukee's coach Bruce Pearl for taking them to the Sweet Sixteen. Eastern Kentuckys coach Travis Ford is going to UMass after leading them to the Tourney and gving Kentucky a good game. Tubby Smith caught his big break when he led Tulsa to a sweet sixteen and got a job at Georgia, which in turn led him to Kentucky.

The list goes on and on and on.... Many of my personal favorites memories are those of upsets in the first two rounds of the tournament. That is what makes March Madness great.
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You were mentioning upsets and near upsets, though. The whole argument for everyone is that "Hey, congrats to the Big 10 for doing what nobody thought, getting 3 teams to the Elite 8!" And by saying that they are trying to act like their conference was disrespected and their teams should have been given more credit and the higher seeding that should go along with it.

However, all they have done is win games as favorites. The Big 10 hasn't gone out and surprised anyone yet, they have beaten up on bad teams.

My opinion changes if Wisconsin knocks off Kansas instead of Bucknell, then knocks off UConn instead of NC State, or Michigan State beats Syracuse instead of Vermont.

Okay?

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:57 am

My opinion changes if Wisconsin knocks off Kansas instead of Bucknell, then knocks off UConn instead of NC State, or Michigan State beats Syracuse instead of Vermont.

Okay?

And people say I am stubborn? Sorry but the (if's and's or but's) logic will get you nowhere.

The Big 12 did not get any teams past the Sweet Sixteen but they will still be a top 3 power conference next year.

You were mentioning upsets and near upsets, though. The whole argument for everyone is that "Hey, congrats to the Big 10 for doing what nobody thought, getting 3 teams to the Elite 8!" And by saying that they are trying to act like their conference was disrespected and their teams should have been given more credit and the higher seeding that should go along with it

Yes because they are a part of the tournament. Upsets are the reason you did not get to see Kansas play Wisconsin. You want to fault/discredit Wisconsin and Mich St for other teams failures.

I wanted to discredit the Big 10 for what they did during the season against each other. I was wrong and admitted such. You should try it, very theraputic.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:10 am

Everyone doesn't understand my point...the Big 10 got lucky.

Pick the harder matchups: Wisconsin-Bucknell/Kansas
Wisconsin-UConn/NC State

Michigan State Vermont/Syracuse

Illinois Texas/Nevada
Boston College/UW-Mil.

Then take the real winners and tell me how the Big 10 team, who beforehand was going to be an underdog is NOT a favorite now. That's my point.

Forget this "tournament" stuff, with the higher seeds going down. The Big 10 benefitted from the upsets moreso than any conference in the tournament.

How should a 6 seed be favored in their first three tournament games and it not be a lucky break?

Was Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan State fortunate or not? Please give me a straight answer to this question.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:14 am

I love how Jackdog started bashing the "experts" on their thoughts about the weak Big 10 conference. Hell, the experts I read and listened to did originally, but once the Big 10 got the nicest draw possible had the Big 10 getting 3 to the Elite 8.

Who is dumb enough to pick Bucknell to beat Wisconsin? Or NC State for that matter?

What about Michigan State/Vermont? The experts, that I listened to had the Spartans.

As well as all the experts saying Illinois was a Final Four lock.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:16 am

Was Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan State fortunate or not? Please give me a straight answer to this question.

Tell you what, since you are the only one with this stance. How about you answer my question first.

Was Kansas, UCONN, Syracuse unfortuante to run into the likes of Vermont, Bucknell & NC State or not? Please give me a straight answer to this question.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:18 am

FloridaGators wrote: My point is that Michigan State, Illinois and Wisconsin combined have been favored in every game besides the Duke game and have won like they are supposed to. Why should I give credit to a conference that is just doing what they are supposed to be doing? Beating underdogs?

Why should you give Michigan St., Illinois, and Wisconsin credit?

Well, they did do something that Duke, Kansas, Syracuse, UConn, Alabama, Boston College, Washington, Gonzaga, Wake Forest, and Oklahoma couldn't do....they won the games they were supposed to.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:23 am

bdoughty wrote:
Was Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan State fortunate or not? Please give me a straight answer to this question.
Tell you what, since you are the only one with this stance. How about you answer my question first.

Was Kansas, UCONN, Syracuse unfortuante to run into the likes of Vermont, Bucknell & NC State or not? Please give me a straight answer to this question.

Yes, they were fortunate and they played bad games.

You make it out to seem that Wisconsin was actually the 2nd best team in their region. Wisconsin lucked out with their matchups. They haven't run into a big man that can play yet (N. Iowa, Bucknell and NC State are perimeter teams).

Illinois up until today hasn't faced a good big man team like a Boston College either.

They are lucky.

And the ACC has the same amount of quality wins as the Big 10 conference in this tournament: one.

NC State over UConn.
Michigan State over Duke.

That's my point. The Big 10 hasn't done anything special besides beat bad teams that got LUCKY to get by good teams.

If Bucknell plays Kansas twenty times they lose 19.
NC State probably loses 15 times out of 20 to UConn.
Syracuse beats Vermont 19 out of 20 times.

I could go on and on. Then, I'll hear the "Tournament spout" about how upsets happen. I agree with that, but it still proves that the Big 10 dodging all the talented, hulking frontcourts and instead played measly, perimeter based clubs.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:25 am

Sully wrote:
FloridaGators wrote: My point is that Michigan State, Illinois and Wisconsin combined have been favored in every game besides the Duke game and have won like they are supposed to. Why should I give credit to a conference that is just doing what they are supposed to be doing? Beating underdogs?

Why should you give Michigan St., Illinois, and Wisconsin credit?

Well, they did do something that Duke, Kansas, Syracuse, UConn, Alabama, Boston College, Washington, Gonzaga, Wake Forest, and Oklahoma couldn't do....they won the games they were supposed to.

That was never my point. My point was that they got ridiculously lucky. I'm not bashing or defending the teams that were higher seeded teams and got upset. I'm just using them as examples of tougher matchups for the Big 10 teams...simple as that.

Bucknell beat Kansas. Kansas sucked. But if Kansas' Wayne Simien makes his shot as time expires, does he not, along with his teammates, seem like a tougher out for Wisconsin than the Bucknell Bison?

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:27 am

I just would like to see Wisconsin actually play a team seeded higher than them. I think they lose convincingly.

Wisconsin does NOT beat Kansas and UConn back to back. I've watched more college basketball than anybody, I feel I can say... and Wisconsin cannot handle those two frontcourts back to back.

Now Bucknell and NC State are perfect MATCHUPS, presented by the draw for the Badgers...as I have been saying. This all equates into my lucky/favored theory for the Big 10.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:29 am

I agree with that, but it still proves that the Big 10 dodging all the talented, hulking frontcourts and instead played measly, perimeter based clubs.

Dodging? You realize that dodging requires some kind of action on your end to avoid something.

Are you saying that we now have a greater conspiracy then the NBA on our hands? That the Big 10 is paying off teams like Kansas and Syracuse so they could advance futher in the tournament.

Say it ain't so Joe.

FloridaGators · Post by **FloridaGators** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:35 am

bdoughty wrote:
I agree with that, but it still proves that the Big 10 dodging all the talented, hulking frontcourts and instead played measly, perimeter based clubs.
Dodging? You realize that dodging requires some kind of action on your end to avoid something.

Are you saying that we now have a greater conspiracy then the NBA on our hands? That the Big 10 is paying off teams like Kansas and Syracuse so they could advance futher in the tournament.

Say it ain't so Joe.

I'm calling it a night on this argument. You know that Wisconsin doesn't beat UConn and Kansas back to back with their front court weaknesses. "Dodging" aside Bucknell and NC State were perfect for them.

As was Vermont for Michigan State and all the perimeter teams Illinois has faced, UW-Mil instead of bruising Big East foe Boston College.

College basketball is all about matchups and the Big 10 lucked out with the best possible ones.

Hey, Congrats to the them on that!

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:38 am

Wisconsin does NOT beat Kansas and UConn back to back. I've watched more college basketball than anybody, I feel I can say... and Wisconsin cannot handle those two frontcourts back to back.

And you know this because you watch alot of basketball? I hate to break it to you but Kansas was on a downward spiral to begin with only Simen playing well.

Heck while we are at it....

Did you also predict UMW getting to Sweet Sixteen?

How about Liberty beating the #3 and #4 seeded teams to get to the womens sweet sixteen? Or did Jerry Fallwell simply get God to pull him a favor, which ended tonight with a blowout to LSU.

You seem to love these "matchups" but can't explain how all these teams like Kansas and Syracuse lost having the "Matchup Edge". I doubt saying Kansas simply "sucked" will get you a job at ESPN as an analyst.

bruising Big East foe Boston College.

Yes they really bruised up a much smaller UMW.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:25 am

FloridaGators wrote: I'm calling it a night on this argument.

Better late than never. Gators, please sleep on the fact that damn near every single person on this board, some of whom might know _something_ about basketball, disagrees with you on this point.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:51 am

FGator..."Illinois, Wisconsin & MState got lucky?" I may...MAY give you Wisconsin...but Illinois and MState are top tier teams. MState has underachieved most of the year and as a BIG Illini fan I will tell you they scare me more than anyone for Illini to match up with in the final.

Let me tell you how LUCKY ILLINOIS IS? 36-1...beat Delaware State (tourney team that gave Duke all they wanted for better than a half), Oakland (tourney team), blew out Zaga by 17 on a neutral, buried Wake by 18, beat GTown by 15 there, remember they were a bubble team. Beat Cincy by 22, another tourney team, beat Wisconson twice by 10 or better, handle Michigan State at East Lansing by 13....the list goes on..

Like I said I may give you a little on the Wisconsin luck when it comes to the tourney draw, but PLEASE do not say ILLINOIS has had a easy walk this season. And I know you argument they have a walk in the tourney..good gawd man, they were an overall #1 seed.

Hope todays games are as good as yesterdays..

J.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:13 am

This is a props to the Big Ten thread right?

Good luck to Wisconsin and Michigan St today!!

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:23 am

sf_z wrote:Fla Gators just wants to bring the BCS into hoops.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Damn!!! do I love your new avatar!