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bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:09 am

Great game Dan, your WR's let you down big time.

Only drawback to tonights game was the intermittent lagginess. Fun game though, experiences like this are why I play in DSP leagues.

Although I didn't appreciate the Jags injury bug, Peerless Price compound fracture out for the year

Great game Dan.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:38 am

cdastros wrote:9pm central thursday it is.

Good luck

CD, if that wasn't a Bears game, I don't know what is. I feel for you, you deserved to win. I thought you were going to make that second FG for sure.

Good game despite the low score, I've been lucky that everyone I've played has been good sports and straight up players.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:35 am

Something has to be done about the Packers owner. Talk to him or something.

The guy had 12 sacks in one game, 7.5 with one player. That's ridiculous, and the type of thing that will ruin this league.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:23 am

Sully wrote:Something has to be done about the Packers owner. Talk to him or something.

The guy had 12 sacks in one game, 7.5 with one player. That's ridiculous, and the type of thing that will ruin this league.

I already had the pleasure of playing that wonderful human being.

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:00 am

Sully wrote:Something has to be done about the Packers owner. Talk to him or something.

The guy had 12 sacks in one game, 7.5 with one player. That's ridiculous, and the type of thing that will ruin this league.

This is why we need the "no controlling the DL" rule. I don't see what the problem is. I usually control a DL but can easily switch to a LB, and all this s*** would go away. When I played Tenn. he controlled a DT and was in my backfield all day. Not much fun.

It just makes for a much better game. I think those that voted against it should reconsider for the betterment of the league. Otherwise we're going to piss off cool people we want in the league and it's going to go to s***.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:58 am

laurenskye wrote:
Sully wrote:Something has to be done about the Packers owner. Talk to him or something.

The guy had 12 sacks in one game, 7.5 with one player. That's ridiculous, and the type of thing that will ruin this league.
This is why we need the "no controlling the DL" rule. I don't see what the problem is. I usually control a DL but can easily switch to a LB, and all this s*** would go away. When I played Tenn. he controlled a DT and was in my backfield all day. Not much fun.

It just makes for a much better game. I think those that voted against it should reconsider for the betterment of the league. Otherwise we're going to piss off cool people we want in the league and it's going to go to s***.

I tried adding this rule and half the league rejected the idea. I think they should all have to play Green Bay every week. I'd like to hear from Spooky on this. Usually it's the DE that racks up sacks for him, but this time it was a DT.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:43 am

Half the owners voted against the no-DL rule. It's ridiculous to overlook their wishes in an effort to stop the one or two morons who abuse the privilege.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:48 am

RobVarak wrote:Half the owners voted against the no-DL rule. It's ridiculous to overlook their wishes in an effort to stop the one or two morons who abuse the privilege.

An Half of us, actually more then half of us voted for it. Yet we are being ignored.

I can't understand why anyone would be against a rule that makes the game more fair, well actually yes I could so those guys could pile up their stats.

cdastros · Post by **cdastros** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:01 am

Brando70 wrote:
cdastros wrote:9pm central thursday it is.

Good luck
CD, if that wasn't a Bears game, I don't know what is. I feel for you, you deserved to win. I thought you were going to make that second FG for sure.

Good game despite the low score, I've been lucky that everyone I've played has been good sports and straight up players.

I thought you out played me Brando. There were a couple 4th downs that I felt you could have went for it because Jones is so hard to stop. I play against the computer so much that Field goal kicking is not something I worry about much. I really need to practice on that. You did a good job on shuting down Rice you had me confused on who to throw to.

I have a lot of practice ahead of me if I am going to be able to compete with you guys.

Good game all around Brando.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:10 am

Danimal wrote:
RobVarak wrote:Half the owners voted against the no-DL rule. It's ridiculous to overlook their wishes in an effort to stop the one or two morons who abuse the privilege.
An Half of us, actually more then half of us voted for it. Yet we are being ignored.

No one is being "ignored." I asked what people thought and it was split pretty much right down the middle. I rush every play, pretty much, with my RDE or LDE. Am I a 'cheeser'? I don't think so. I never move my linemen at all. No shifts, no nothing. I personally don't like to control LBers in coverage and there's no way in hell I can control a DB before the snap. So what am I to do? If I'm going to control a Dlineman...I'm gonna rush with him. The Packer owner, at least in the game I played, didn't cheat at all. He's just very skilled at rushing the passer. I was pissed about it, and after that game I made the poll.

However, after that game, I have learned a ton about how to counter a speed rush. My sack totals have declined dramatically since the Packer game mainly because I changed the way I play offense. There are times when there's nothing you can do if the DE times his rush properly, but there are ways around it.

It's highly frustrating for me even when I play defense. Last nighgt when I played TrojanMan I registered a few sacks and consciously stopped rushing as hard.

It's a gameplay flaw that I see no real way around.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:44 am

Ok maybe ignored was a strong word, you did ask for a vote and we had one and it was split (53% against it to 47% for). So we left it as is and the people who wanted DL control got what they wanted, and the rest of us didn't. So we may not have been ignored, but I certainly wouldn't call it a fair compromise. I'm quite sure of those 47% above, most are at the top of the league for sacks.

In my game last night neither I or Bk used a DL. There was 1 sack per each side. I'd say that is a fine work around to a gameplay flaw.

I'm not sitting here saying everyone is a cheeser, but it is a pretty clear fact that when you control a DL, you create more pressure, even if you don't hit the A button.

So these are the rules and I'll play by them, but this isn't about there not being a work around. Its about people who use DL not wanting to compromise.

Sudz · Post by **Sudz** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:52 am

Laurenskye----

when do you want to play?

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:16 pm

Danimal wrote:Ok maybe ignored was a strong word, you did ask for a vote and we had one and it was split (53% against it to 47% for). So we left it as is and the people who wanted DL control got what they wanted, and the rest of us didn't. So we may not have been ignored, but I certainly wouldn't call it a fair compromise. I'm quite sure of those 47% above, most are at the top of the league for sacks.

In my game last night neither I or Bk used a DL. There was 1 sack per each side. I'd say that is a fine work around to a gameplay flaw.

I'm not sitting here saying everyone is a cheeser, but it is a pretty clear fact that when you control a DL, you create more pressure, even if you don't hit the A button.

So these are the rules and I'll play by them, but this isn't about there not being a work around. Its about people who use DL not wanting to compromise.

When this issue first came up I played several exhibitions against friends with the no-DL rule before I voted. I think it's a gross overcompensation. There was virtually no pressure generated, regardless of the teams used or defenses called, when we didn't use the D linemen.

It's not using the linemen that's being exploited, it's how they're being used.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:24 pm

It's obvious he was using the DT glitch. 7.5 sacks with his DT?!?!

You don't need much more proof than that! Nobody knows the guy, he shouldn't even be in the league in the first place.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:36 pm

Sully wrote:It's obvious he was using the DT glitch. 7.5 sacks with his DT?!?!

You don't need much more proof than that! Nobody knows the guy, he shouldn't even be in the league in the first place.

As for him not being in the league, well, if we had more people from DSP that wanted to play I wouldn't have to go outside to get fill ins. It is what it is. I emailed Spooky to see what happened. If he used the DT glitch (manually positioned the DT) and I'll boot him. Simple as that. If he didn't break any house rules then there's not much I can do. I am curious how Pittsburgh shut him down last week. Only 1 sack..

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:39 pm

RobVarak wrote: When this issue first came up I played several exhibitions against friends with the no-DL rule before I voted. I think it's a gross overcompensation. There was virtually no pressure generated, regardless of the teams used or defenses called, when we didn't use the D linemen.

Rob,

You must be kidding.

I never use my DL, the Jags has 22 sacks thus far. Some NFL teams don't get 22 sacks all year. I'm pretty sure I am on the low end of the spectrum as well. That is without touching a DL men.

Grenbay 36 sacks
Browns 40 sacks (I know bill is not a cheeser, that is why I am using his stats here)

Trying to convince anyone that the league is more balanced by allowing people to use DL is not supported by the stats. In fact if anything 22 sacks by me shows that pressure is being generated when you do not use a DL to rush.

Again the rules are set, I'll play by them. But you'll have a hard time convincing me there is any legitmate reason for controlling DL, except that those owners will not compromise.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:06 pm

Danimal wrote:
RobVarak wrote: When this issue first came up I played several exhibitions against friends with the no-DL rule before I voted. I think it's a gross overcompensation. There was virtually no pressure generated, regardless of the teams used or defenses called, when we didn't use the D linemen.
Rob,

You must be kidding.

I never use my DL, the Jags has 22 sacks thus far. Some NFL teams don't get 22 sacks all year. I'm pretty sure I am on the low end of the spectrum as well. That is without touching a DL men.

Grenbay 36 sacks
Browns 40 sacks (I know bill is not a cheeser, that is why I am using his stats here)

Trying to convince anyone that the league is more balanced by allowing people to use DL is not supported by the stats. In fact if anything 22 sacks by me shows that pressure is being generated when you do not use a DL to rush.

Again the rules are set, I'll play by them. But you'll have a hard time convincing me there is any legitmate reason for controlling DL, except that those owners will not compromise.

First of all, yes, we bring the heat in Cleveland.

I was all for the "no DL" rule. However, there are two sides to this. Yes, sacks are way, way inflated in the league and in the game as a whole. That said, passing is also WAY too easy without pressure. I agree that you can get pass rush without controlling a Dlineman, but I also know that throwing medium-to-deep passes all day is a lot easier than it should be. There is no way that we can adjust the rules to make the game online play like NFL football. Impossible. But I also strongly feel that speed rushing, while you cant stop it CAN be neutralized to an extent by leaving RBs and FBs in to block and learning how to use the evade right thumb stick move.

The more I learn about it, the more I think another issue is the "mix" and stunt packages. The pass rush is much less effective using the "base" rush. It's when you start stunting that the DLineman find open holes because the Olinman are, as a group, incredibly stupid in this game.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:18 pm

That is a good point Bill. I am however forbidden from talking about the DB AI

so I will just say I agree.

I don't know what you do, but I would say inflated sack totals is possibly the understatement of the year. You have 40 man! The old Abner I know wouldn't have put up with this in a game, you must be getting soft in your old age

Again the only reason I jumped in on this was because someone was trying to imply the DL control is not a problem and the stats don't represent that statement.

I'd rather deal with that then have some guy throw 4 flea flickers on me and break the rules by moving his DT manually and still be awarded the win. Yes I am bitter that a-hole is still in the league.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:23 pm

I will say this. If you speed rush from the DL, I don't want to hear any complaints when I decide to let Vick loose in an effort to counter that.

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:25 pm

The most frustrating experience of my NFL 2k5 life last night. Yes, he was using the glitch, pinching the defensive line and controlling the DT. He didn't use it all the time but whenever he needed a big play on D, he went with the glitch. He also uses the same glitch on PAT and FG's, as he was getting his DT into the backfield on all my PAT's.

Our first game, which unfortunately disconnected with me leading in the middle of the 3Q, he was playing straight up till I built a 10 point lead. That's when he decided to bust out the DT pinch play.

What can I say? I still had a chance to win the game but lost it on defense with less than a minute left. I don't want to lose another owner in this league but whoever plays Green Bay better prepare themselves for a long night of cursing at the TV.

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:03 pm

spooky157 wrote:The most frustrating experience of my NFL 2k5 life last night. Yes, he was using the glitch, pinching the defensive line and controlling the DT. He didn't use it all the time but whenever he needed a big play on D, he went with the glitch. He also uses the same glitch on PAT and FG's, as he was getting his DT into the backfield on all my PAT's.

Our first game, which unfortunately disconnected with me leading in the middle of the 3Q, he was playing straight up till I built a 10 point lead. That's when he decided to bust out the DT pinch play.

What can I say? I still had a chance to win the game but lost it on defense with less than a minute left. I don't want to lose another owner in this league but whoever plays Green Bay better prepare themselves for a long night of cursing at the TV.

Unacceptable. I feel for you Spooky. I'm just glad this clown isn't on my schedule.

Let me guess...he had no mic?

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:22 pm

Sully wrote:
Unacceptable. I feel for you Spooky. I'm just glad this clown isn't on my schedule.

Let me guess...he had no mic?

You guessed right, Sully.

I voted against the no-controlling DL rule, not because I use a DL but I know other people who do but don't use this glitch. I personally only use the weakside OLB and rarely do I blitz him. But what can you do, really? It was just so frustrating not being able to complete a 3 step drop.

Whoever plays GB, I'll be rooting for them from now on.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:27 pm

First of all, I find it unacceptable to not be able to control the DL. There are certain situations where I find it highly strategic -- goalline and prevent plays. I find it hard to shed blocks with my LB in obvious running situations. So when I'm in short yardage, I like to use a lineman. With soft defenses like Cover 4/12, I also like to control the DL because it's hard to see the LB or DB on a pass play 30 yards down the field. I inevitably screw up my positioning.

We didn't ignore people about controlling the DLine. We said you couldn't manually move DLs, only use the R-stick to change their spacing. There are blocking audibles, 90-style pass plays, and the R-stick evade moves. They don't stop the cheesing but they do help. Do I like having to play someone like that? No. But I don't want to be punished because of one f---tard using questionnable but not disallowed tactics.

Also, enough with the "did he have a mic" nonsense. I've played several folks without a mic and they've been totally cool, CDastros and Bill being the latest. Some people can't talk/don't like to talk during the game.

Sorry to rant for a bit, but we always seem to try and focus on the one or two pains in the ass instead of the other good players. Danimal's experience has been the exception to the rule, I think.

I agree with BK, though, anybody constantly speed rushing can be scrambled on all day.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:31 pm

Danimal wrote:That is a good point Bill. I am however forbidden from talking about the DB AI so I will just say I agree.

I don't know what you do, but I would say inflated sack totals is possibly the understatement of the year. You have 40 man! The old Abner I know wouldn't have put up with this in a game, you must be getting soft in your old age

heh well the old Bill never played online games at all for this very reason. I want it to be a realistic, or at least a moderately realistic experience, but when you have a game that has a lot of quirks like this it makes it damn near impossible. If I knew how much of a problem this was going to be, no way would I have started the league; it's just too crazy to take seriously. I know how silly it is to see the sack totals but I also have put WAY too much time into this thing to pack it in. There is no fix to this. We either deal with pressure from the Dline or give QBs free reign to throw for 300 yards a game. Pick your poison.

As for Vick, believe me, when we play next week BK if Courtney Brown rushes off the end and gets close to Vick I have no problem at all with you tucking and running. One counter deserves another as far as I'm concerned.

Spooky, thanks. I'm sending him an email because speed rushing off the end is one thing (hell I do that) but using that DT glitch which is BRUTAL in this game is all together different and to my knowlege cannot be countered as well as the DE rush can.

Spooky--I too have felt the wrath of the GB pass rush. I know how you feel.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:33 pm

cdastros wrote:
I thought you out played me Brando. There were a couple 4th downs that I felt you could have went for it because Jones is so hard to stop. I play against the computer so much that Field goal kicking is not something I worry about much. I really need to practice on that. You did a good job on shuting down Rice you had me confused on who to throw to.

I have a lot of practice ahead of me if I am going to be able to compete with you guys.

Good game all around Brando.

Funny you mention the fourth downs. I seriously thought about it with the 4th and inches play at midfield (the one where I challenged the spot, I still think I got jobbed LOL). But you stuffed the A-Train earlier on 3rd and 1, and Bill stopped me on 4th and 1 last week. My O-line doesn't do well in the clutch