Lord, EA has Electronics Boutique by the balls, too

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:30 pm

Boys:
 
 Man, the amount of control Electronics Arts has over the videogame industry stuns me more and more each day. Take the EBGames.com Web site as of 1 p.m. (EDT) today, for example.
 
 Today is the first day that ESPN NFL Football, one of the most awaited titles in THE most popular console sports genre, is available at EB´s nationwide. So where does that rank on EB´s home page? As a small promotional module at the bottom of the page. Soul Calibur II still leads the site.
 
 The EA influence is even more startling on the PS2 and Xbox pages of EBGames.com. There´s no feature mention of ESPN NFL Football on either console´s home page other than a link in the New Releases section. Yet Madden 2004 -- which has been on the market for two weeks -- keeps small promotional modules near the top of each console´s home page.
 
 Un-f*cking-believable. You´ve got to hand it to EA -- it knows marketing and PR better than anyone in the gaming industry.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 03-09-2003 10:30 ]

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:38 pm

yeah after going to pick up my copies of 2k4 the saleman told me they only got 3 ps2 copies in today and 8 xbox copies total
 
 madden came in by the box load <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif">

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:12 pm

The good news is that when you call up an EB they answer the phone "Electronics Boutique, your ESPN Football Headquarters".
 
 At least they are pimping it a little bit.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:32 pm

I dunno dude.
 
 I checked out the ebgames site, and yes, on top was Soul Caliber II (IMO to be expected, surely a much bigger seller than any Sega football could ever be), and one of the 3 things on the bottom was the Sega football. Also, there was W. Sapp´s big ugly mug in an add on the right as well. There was no Madden or NCAA or any EA game of any type to be found anywhere on the front page, so. . . .
 
 All I can say is "hmmmm."

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:36 pm

OK, so now I go to the system specific pages, and. . .
 
 I see what you mean PK. No special nothin´ for good ol´ Sega football, nothin´ at all. Only in the new releases tab, which of course you have to hit to switch it from the coming soon tab.
 
 Still, it is on the FRONT page of the site.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:08 pm

Hugo:
 
 All I know is that Madden was the lead of the main site and console-specific sites on its release day.
 
 And I think some gamers are like me: I own only an Xbox, so I bookmark only the Xbox portion of EB Games. I could give three shits what´s being sold for all other platforms from the main page.
 
 And there´s almost no presence for ESPN NFL on the Xbox site, which stuns me.
 
 Take care,
 PK

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:26 pm

Gee, PK, are you so 100% sure that it´s all EA´s "control" over EB that´s to blame here? It wouldn´t have anything to do with the fact that Madden crushed NFL2K3 last year in sales badly, would it? I mean, let´s get serious, EB is going to put what it expects to be the most anticipated titles at the top of its page. They probably also have a pretty good clue based upon their pre-orders.
 
 Quality in terms of review scores means diddly squat. "Enter the Matrix" was a top page item in spite of poor review scores because it was expected to be a huge seller and was eagerly anticipated. Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness is crap on a disc....yet I (even as someone who should have KNOWN better) fell for the hype and preordered it. (By the way, neither of the above are EA titles).
 
 It seems to me just good solid business thinking that when you can see what last year´s numbers are, you are going to make sure you put your biggest hitters at the top of the page. Totally aside from whether the game deserves to be there on merit or not, business sense says that, as far as EB is concerned, the best game is the game that makes them the most money, and EA´s Madden series is a juggernaut. Only a full court press from Sony back in 96-98 has threatened them in recent memory.
 
 Anyway, finding bitter Sega NFL2Kx owners on Digital Sportspage is becoming almost as predictable as hearing a Democrat whine about "Tax Cuts for the Rich".
 
 Anyway, EA is crowing today that they´ve sold bajillion copies of Madden 2004 for all platforms since its release and it´s now the fastest selling game of all time. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn´t. That´s press releases for ya. But I can still put 2 and 2 together and see that Madden is still the 800 lb gorilla of the video football industry.
 
 (Oh, and yeah, Soul Calibur II is going to OF COURSE be on the top of EB´s site because it´s expected to sell like hotcakes....that´s a no-brainer.)
 
 Anyway, can we all maybe talk about the good and bad and ugly about each game rather than acting like angry Mac users?
 
 Randy

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:40 pm

Okay, I´m going to reply to myself! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 I guess I can somewhat relate to the bitterness of the ESPN NFL crowd, given that I felt largely the same way when Gameday 98 outsold Madden in spite of being a joke from an AI perspective (relative to Madden that year, anyway).
 
 It can be pretty discouraging when the product you feel best represents your favorite sport suffers poor sales relative to its competitors. I felt the same way about Grand Prix Legends and IndyCar II in light of the success of the various NASCAR titles.
 
 I guess where I part company is that I really don´t see a huge EA conspiracy here. There seems to be this level of loathing directed at EA by some here, and to some degree towards Sony as well, and yet Microsoft, well known for its bullying tactics in almost every business relationship, seems to get a pass, whereas every controversial move by Sony or EA is greeted with derision and outrage.
 
 I don´t think ANY of the companies competing in this market are lilly white in their ethics. They will all use whatever PR spin they have to in order to sell their products, and by using incentives, they will do what they can to get retailers to present them more prominently and in a more positive light. Microsoft does it, Sega does it, Nintendo does it, and of course, EA does it. So what determines who gets trashed for it here on DSP?
 
 Is it who happens to be on top? (Sony outsells MS, and EA outsells Sega, therefore, it´s important to bash EA and Sony at every opportunity)>
 
 Is it maybe related to your favorite console? (EA and MS couldn´t get together on XBox Live, so let´s trash EA and Sony and praise XBox Live?)
 
 Is it "sports elitistm"? ( I think game xxx is more realistic than game yyy, and because the masses like game yyy, I will deride it and its fans at every opportunity?)
 
 I have no idea. Maybe a psychologiest could help. But I guess I´m WAYYYYY more interested in hearing BK´s 2004 observations on DB coverage in the two big hitters in football so I can evaluate them for myself. I´d like to see whether each has addressed its weaknesses from last year.
 
 Anyway, that´s the root of my input here -- I would just rather talk about the products themselves and argue about what they do or do not do well, than grouse about whether or not our favorite title is getting "the props" and whether there´s a big mean conspiracy behind it.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:46 pm

Randy:
 
 I guess your selective reading missed the last line of my post:
 
 >>>You´ve got to hand it to EA -- it knows marketing and PR better than anyone in the gaming industry.<<<
 
 How is that an accusation of a conspiracy? It was a sincere compliment to EA. The company handles marketing and PR better than any other.
 
 I just find it hard to believe that a new football game -- the biggest sellers among sports games, which comprise a big portion of the market -- from one of the "big three" game companies got such little exposure from EB´s site.
 
 And if you think EA doesn´t exert influence on its sellers, I think you´re mistaken. Other companies try, but EA is the 800-pound gorilla of the industry and can operate at will in many regards, especially with marketing and PR.
 
 That´s all.
 
 Take care,
 PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:48 pm

>>>Anyway, that´s the root of my input here -- I would just rather talk about the products themselves and argue about what they do or do not do well, than grouse about whether or not our favorite title is getting "the props" and whether there´s a big mean conspiracy behind it.<<<
 
 Well, then why did you take the time to write two lengthy posts to a topic in which you have little interest?
 
 Odd.
 
 Take care,
 PK

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:58 pm

>> I guess your selective reading missed the last line of my post:
 
 >>>You´ve got to hand it to EA -- it knows marketing and PR better than anyone in the gaming industry.<<<
 
 I didn´t miss it. But when you combine it with the actual SUBJECT of the post: "Lord, EA has Electronics Boutique by the balls, too", it doesn´t sound so much like a compliment, but a company perhaps using scare tactics and dirty tricks to IMPOSE brand loyalty on a retailer? I have to look at ALL of what you say, not just part of it. It seems that the compliment was kinda backhanded. Sorta like complimenting Stalin for solving the overpopulation problem, "You gotta hand it to the guy - he found very efficient ways to reduce crowding" -- e.g. the subject of your post suggests something sinister, and the ´compliment´ seems to award them props for being really GOOD at being sinister!
 
 >> I just find it hard to believe that a new football game -- the biggest sellers among sports games, which comprise a big portion of the market -- from one of the "big three" game companies got such little exposure from EB´s site. >>
 
 Well, consider first that it was up against Soul Calibur II in this release cycle, and that being 2nd best at football can mean anything. It might mean you got outsold 20 to 1 by the #1 title, or in a more Gameday/Madden dual, you were outsold 13 to 7. Obviously in the latter case, there´s a stronger argument for equal treatment on the site. But if the former is the case, then what exactly are you basing your prioritizing on?
 
 Personally, I´d like to see both games get a lot of coverage. Part of the problem is also the degree of public endorsement Madden gets from the athletes. People want to play the football game that their favorite football players enjoy the most. Maybe they are all just paid off to SAY they like Madden the best (the conspiracy theory)...or maybe they DO like it the best and that holds water with the public who already idolizes these guys.
 
 >>And if you think EA doesn´t exert influence on its sellers, I think you´re mistaken. Other companies try>>
 
 When you read my post, particularly the second one, you´ll see I actually agree with that. But, again, I´d refer you to the drama of your subject line to see the way you´re ACTUALLY pitching your argument. You make it sound like EB would LOVE to promote the heck out of ESPN Football, but cannot because EA´s going to make them howl in pain if they dare do it. That´s the kind of thing I think it´s rather unfair to state unless you have some evidence to back up heavy handed tactics. I think probably one of the major differences in tactics would be:
 
 Common and generally ethical = "If you´ll buy at least XX of this product and put it prominently in your store window, we´ll put a link to you on our site, recommend people buy it at your store, and give you a price break"
 
 Less Common behavior, perfected by MS with Windows bundling. "We´ll give you this great rate on our product and give you a link to our site, etc, but if we find you gave similar treatment to our nearest competitor, you pay the higher rate and we yank all our referrals. Go with us, or go with them. Make your choice, you dog".
 
 The subject line of your post makes it look like you believe the latter is the case, instead of the former. Don´t you agree?
 
 
 >> but EA is the 800-pound gorilla of the industry and can operate at will in many regards, especially with marketing and PR. >>
 
 Well, I´d argue that when you can show a retailer that you crushed your competition in sales the previous season, you can make a pretty easy argument that your stuff should be put farther up the promotional food chain.
 
 Randy

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:01 pm

PK,
 
 Because I´m a little disappointed with the forum and the front page of the site and how it´s kind of turned into a bash-fest instead of the deeper football talk I´d rather see. I like the threads we had on Marino-Montana, and I´d also like to hear some really good breakdowns of coverage schemes in the football titles, how the online play is, whether there are cheesy players still ruining the fun for people ,etc.
 
 Just disappointed, and trying to vent my disappointment. That´s all, man.
 
 Randy

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:11 pm

>>>The subject line of your post makes it look like you believe the latter is the case, instead of the former. Don´t you agree?<<<
 
 Yes, I agree. And I do believe the latter is the case. No proof, just a belief.
 
 >>>Because I´m a little disappointed with the forum and the front page of the site and how it´s kind of turned into a bash-fest instead of the deeper football talk I´d rather see. I like the threads we had on Marino-Montana, and I´d also like to hear some really good breakdowns of coverage schemes in the football titles, how the online play is, whether there are cheesy players still ruining the fun for people ,etc.<<<
 
 Randy, then do something about it. Bitching about it won´t solve anything. Making more smart posts like your Marino-Montana post will. Posting content to the front page will.
 
 And where is the bashfest on the cover? Sony was ripped for a lie in a press release, and Microsoft was chided a bit for releasing its new Xbox Live features a bit late. That´s equal opportunity criticism. Otherwise, everything on the cover now is news or a feature.
 
 And how can you expect people to make detailed analyses of ESPN NFL Football when it´s been on store shelves for less than 12 hours? We can go to other sites for that knee-jerk "in-depth" analysis.
 
 Maybe some people played ESPN NFL all day today. I guess I´m in the minority: I worked today. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

RAMMZZ · Post by **RAMMZZ** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:21 pm

I dont think its EA doing it....I think its the market thats dictating whats happening.
 
 Wether or not you prefer Madden ...Madden is going to sell far more copies....thats it ...thats all...Its business..not personal.
 
 One game...Id take Elway over both those guys.
 
 Ill give ya in depth analysys in a week.

Steelerfan2k1 · Post by **Steelerfan2k1** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:09 am

I love EA and I buy ridiculous quantities of their sports games. Still though, I can still get past the marketing when it comes to titles like WSB, NCAA BB 2K3, NBA 2K3 and NHL 2K3.
 
 But - EA still owns me when it comes to Madden, NCAA FB and games like Freedom Fighters - which is coming out in the next few weeks.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:50 am

EA has only one console franchise that I think about purchasing without a rental: Medal of Honor.
 
 And without online play for the Xbox, even that series´ appeal is fading for me.
 
 I wish EA made sequels to NHL Rock the Rink and NASCAR Rumble for this generation of systems. Man, those two games were pure fun. Loved them.
 
 Take care,
 PK

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:01 am

It is often about product placement and very rarely about quality.
 
 Big companies buy shelf space - sometimes they don´t even use it - except to keep the competitors off of the shelves. A good example would be Eagle snacks. They made great potato chips and other snacks, but Lays drove them out of business by spending money to keep them off the shelves.
 
 Is that happening here with EA/Sega/EB? Who knows? I see more incompetence with EB than conspiracy. But I think the idea of shelf space or ´web site space´ could be at least partially true.
 
 But on the other hand, if game stores were to have a party to celebrate the release of ESPN Football, how many people would show up? Everyone went freaky about Madden, so a party was in order. It is a big game and to its credit, it has a ton of options and is deeper than most gamers will ever need it to be.
 
 As for how the games compare- who knows? I preordered from Sega and have yet to receive the game. Sega is the king of bad marketing. I don´t even have the game in hand and I am already pissed off at them. Good job! Should I blame Sega marketing for poor distribution? Probably not. But it doesn´t help your game when you don´t even get your product out to those who want it so badly that they order directly from the source.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:11 pm

My local EB got a whopping TWO copies of ESPN NFL Football. I was their only preorder. They had 20 preorders for Madden and got around double that shipped to them.
 
 They have TONS of preorders for EA NHL 2004, and I think he said ONE for ESPN NHL. They are giving away a free 3rd party controller if you pre-order EA´s NHL 2004.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:03 pm

That is so weird that your guys local stores didn´t get any in. My EB had about 50 of each the PS2 and Xbox versions and they said they had a lot of preorders for each. Weird.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:38 pm

DB:
 
 Remember, you live in Southern California, which has 20 million people. SoCal also is the retail capital of America.
 
 Not a slam at all. Just some perspective.
 
 Also -- and I´m not expecting you to know this! -- JamesE lives in northeast Ontario, which probably isn´t as geeked for the NFL as us Yanks. Something tells me that JamesE´s local EB will carry a bushel basket-full of ESPN NHL Hockey next week. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 That said, my local EB -- in a Syracuse suburb -- had close to 10 copies left of the Xbox version of ESPN NFL when I bought the game at 3:30 p.m. (EDT) Wednesday.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 04-09-2003 20:42 ]

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:43 pm

Good point...never though of that...nor did I look to see where the guys reporting that were from.