OT: Racing 2015 (Spoiler Alert)

[pk500]

Yeah I don't put Vettel on the same level as Hamilton or Alonso, not yet. He clearly had the best Adrian Newey cars and benefited massively from it. Alonso nearly one two titles in the span of four years if it weren't for a dose of bad luck and pit strategy (Abu Dubai) in an inferior car.

That Bahrain race was an ugly race for Vettel which Bottas held him off throughout the race. IMO, Vettel is very good but I wouldn't lump him in with the elites.

Alonso is better than Vettel and Hammy. But there's nothing between Hammy and Vettel. Hammy had the best car by a f*cking mile last year.

[GB_Simo]

I'm not at all convinced that the 2010 Ferrari was particularly inferior, Rod, any more than I think the Red Bull was superior in 2012. There are also plenty of other early-career examples to add to PK's: for starters, Vettel scored points on his debut in a mid-grid BMW (Indy 2007) and had a very solid shot at winning in that horrible Fuji monsoon the same year.

What he couldn't do is adapt to the characteristics of last year's Red Bull, but while that might sound like a black mark, the F1 driver who can take absolutely any car to the limit regardless of how it behaves is an incredibly rare beast. Fangio, Moss, Clark, perhaps Peterson, Gilles, Senna, Alonso...the list is incomplete, of course, but not hugely so. If you're in any doubt about Vettel's place among the elites, look at where the other Red Bull finished in the hands of a man who, on his day (Nurburgring 2009, Monaco, Barcelona and Silverstone 2010), was absolutely unbeatable.

[Rodster]

Yeah I don't put Vettel on the same level as Hamilton or Alonso, not yet. He clearly had the best Adrian Newey cars and benefited massively from it. Alonso nearly one two titles in the span of four years if it weren't for a dose of bad luck and pit strategy (Abu Dubai) in an inferior car.

That Bahrain race was an ugly race for Vettel which Bottas held him off throughout the race. IMO, Vettel is very good but I wouldn't lump him in with the elites.

Alonso is better than Vettel and Hammy. But there's nothing between Hammy and Vettel. Hammy had the best car by a f*cking mile last year.

I would still give the edge to Hamilton for two reasons. In his rookie season he gave Alonso fits and ALMOST won the drivers title. He drove a car he wasn't familiar with in his rookie season. He brings out the most in his car.

Alonso is in a league of his own as he nearly won 5 WDC with 3 different teams. That's Fangio-esque

My beef with Vettel are many. He doesn't adapt well if the car doesn't suit him (insert Kimi). He got pummeled by his rookie teammate @ Red Bull and many believe almost had him thinking of quitting which forced his hand to Ferrari. Last year Vettel looked like an above average F1 driver thanks in part to Ricciardo. I was wrong about Ricciardo. I thought he was going to be Webber II and be eaten alive by Vettel. The opposite happened.

You don't win a drivers title if you suck, more so if you win 4 but Vettel had an easy time between 2010-13, thanks to Newey's cars. If Hamilton had not had a killer rookie season and followed it up with a WDC the following year I would probably be saying the same about him.

[XXXIV]

As a newcomer on the way in or maybe on the way to bailing.....Vettel has won four championships. If he is not elite there is something hideously wrong with the sport and it is NOT worth watching.

[GB_Simo]

Stay with us, Alex!

I would still give the edge to Hamilton for two reasons. In his rookie season he gave Alonso fits and ALMOST won the drivers title. He drove a car he wasn't familiar with in his rookie season. He brings out the most in his car.

Alonso is in a league of his own as he nearly won 5 WDC with 3 different teams. That's Fangio-esque

My beef with Vettel are many. He doesn't adapt well if the car doesn't suit him (insert Kimi). He got pummeled by his rookie teammate @ Red Bull and many believe almost had him thinking of quitting which forced his hand to Ferrari. Last year Vettel looked like an above average F1 driver thanks in part to Ricciardo. I was wrong about Ricciardo. I thought he was going to be Webber II and be eaten alive by Vettel. The opposite happened.

You don't win a drivers title if you suck, more so if you win 4 but Vettel had an easy time between 2010-13, thanks to Newey's cars. If Hamilton had not had a killer rookie season and followed it up with a WDC the following year I would probably be saying the same about him.

Vettel had a killer rookie season too and won the first title he realistically could have won, despite going into the final race as 3rd favourite. (If 2010 was an easy title, I'd hate to see the ones he had to work for. Ditto 2012 - Vettel came from well back after Alonso led through the summer.)

Mansell used to retire from races when the car didn't suit him, Schumacher couldn't get the best from an understeering car, Prost the same with an oversteering car, Hakkinen completely lost interest if the car was off the boil. It is far, far harder to write the list of drivers to whom that didn't apply - I made a start in my last post and would be intrigued to see how much further an F1-centric list would go. My feeling is that the same criteria being applied to Seb here would, when applied to the history of the sport, leave us with perhaps 15 elites over 110 years, and that's including folk like Nuvolari and Caracciola. I'm not particularly a fan of Vettel, but I can't come to terms with the idea that he's anything less than absolutely top-drawer.

I am a huge fan of Alonso the driver, less so the man, but can't get away with the comparison. Juan Manuel Fangio's reputation wasn't built on nearly winning things.

[pk500]

Alonso is in a league of his own as he nearly won 5 WDC with 3 different teams. That's Fangio-esque

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. Fangio WON five World Championships. He didn't ALMOST win them.

[XXXIV]

Stay with us, Alex!

Im staying.

I was enjoying reading the discussion and I thought I would add the point of view of someone who doesnt know much of the history of F1.

[Rodster]

Alonso is in a league of his own as he nearly won 5 WDC with 3 different teams. That's Fangio-esque

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. Fangio WON five World Championships. He didn't ALMOST win them.

That's why I said, IF he had won those 5 championships it would have been Fangio-esque. I'm definitely not a fan of Alonso the person but as a driver i'll always view him as one of the all time greats and a driver that appears once every 10-15 years. He would have been better off staying at Ferrari and trusting in James Allison who tried to convince him.

As a newcomer on the way in or maybe on the way to bailing.....Vettel has won four championships. If he is not elite there is something hideously wrong with the sport and it is NOT worth watching.

After watching his complete demolition (qualifying and races) last year by his rookie teammate I can't give Vettel the "Elite" driver status especially when he considered walking away from the sport because of the ass whooping he got from Ricciardo. After his win in Malaysia everyone was saying he's got his mojo back. That's not elite. When you are at elite status, like Alonso you don't let your teammate destroy you and tarnish your achievements. In my view Vettel is on the level as Kimi Raikkonen, skill wise. Both are top level talents and both drivers need the car to be to their style of driving. If the car is off, the results are off. Where Vettel gets a nod over Raikkonen is that Vettel doesn't fall asleep like Kimi does at times during the year. Now that Kimi wants his option year for 2016 he's driving like the Kimi of old or close to it.

When you look at what Michael Schumacher did in his 1st year with the 1996 Ferrari "sled" and won a few times that year, that's an elite driver. Michael always found a way to get the most out of the car regardless of whether it suited his style or not. So far Vettel is not in that group of drivers.

Now the question is, is he the right person for Ferrari? My answer would be an unequivocal YES because he's a team player unlike Alonso. He tends to not air the teams dirty laundry in public. Last year at Red Bull was a good example. Even though his season was disappointing he kept his mouth quiet while his teammate was producing results.

[DChaps]

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. Fangio WON five World Championships. He didn't ALMOST win them.

And Fangio did it like this!

In seven seasons of Grand Prix racing, Juan Manuel Fangio won 5 World Driver's Championships with four different teams, and finished runner up on two occasions. He was the dominant driver during the first decade of Formula One and his record stood unmatched for 45 years.

The Maestro indeed!

[pk500]

After watching his complete demolition (qualifying and races) last year by his rookie teammate I can't give Vettel the "Elite" driver status especially when he considered walking away from the sport because of the ass whooping he got from Ricciardo. After his win in Malaysia everyone was saying he's got his mojo back. That's not elite. When you are at elite status, like Alonso you don't let your teammate destroy you and tarnish your achievements. In my view Vettel is on the level as Kimi Raikkonen, skill wise. Both are top level talents and both drivers need the car to be to their style of driving. If the car is off, the results are off. Where Vettel gets a nod over Raikkonen is that Vettel doesn't fall asleep like Kimi does at times during the year. Now that Kimi wants his option year for 2016 he's driving like the Kimi of old or close to it.

And what about Alonso running away from McLaren after finishing almost dead-level with rookie Hamilton -- The Ron's boy at the time -- in 2007? And what about Alonso and De La Rosa conspiring to illegally take data from Nigel Stepney through Mike Coughlan that same season? Captain Morgan gets a steel-resolve and ethical pass for that?

[Rodster]

And what about Alonso running away from McLaren after finishing almost dead-level with rookie Hamilton -- The Ron's boy at the time -- in 2007? And what about Alonso and De La Rosa conspiring to illegally take data from Nigel Stepney through Mike Coughlan that same season? Captain Morgan gets a steel-resolve and ethical pass for that?

I'm rating them on performance and not politics and that's why I put Hamilton behind Alonso. I also mentioned that Hamilton gave Alonso fits but at the end of the season they were both tied in points unlike Vettel who quickly became a shadow of his former self when Ricciardo joined the team, big difference. Alonso probably left because he wanted the #1 status and probably behind the scenes thought he had that agreement until Hamilton started to match Alonso in each race. Now Ron was faced with two #1 drivers and tried to be fair which backfired. Hamilton is a rare breed because when he came on the scene he raised the bar for all rookies to follow.

As Niki Lauda has said, Alonso is one of the few drivers on the grid that can take a 7th place car and consistently finish 3rd or 4th. He has a knack to get the most out of his cars whether it's a sled or not. On a performance only basis he's the most complete driver on the grid and has been for many years.

[GB_Simo]

Meanwhile, in Woking, we can now add to the Ronspeak lexicon the glorious "predatory graphite grey", a phrase used by keen practitioners of Ronspeak when describing the colour black:

[Rodster]

They need to put something/anything on those sidepods. Perhaps the driver's name, McLaren or Honda?

[pk500]

They need to put something/anything on those sidepods. Perhaps the driver's name, McLaren or Honda?

Definitely not Honda. Teams with empty sidepods leave them empty, indicating to sponsors they're available. If McLaren put Honda on the sidepods without additional funding from Honda, that would tell the global business community those spots are no longer for sale.

Many IndyCar teams run with empty sidepods even after adding a sponsor because that new partner funds only at an associate level. Sidepods are prime real estate, relinquished only to companies that spend at primary sponsor levels. Teams can't devalue their property.

[Rodster]

Definitely not Honda. Teams with empty sidepods leave them empty, indicating to sponsors they're available. If McLaren put Honda on the sidepods without additional funding from Honda, that would tell the global business community those spots are no longer for sale.

I mentioned Honda as a last resort as I noticed their car doesn't say "powered by Honda", just Honda. Which led me to thinking they are in a way advertising for them. So moving Honda below Mobil 1 and putting Honda on the sidepod might clean up the look a little more.

I don't know how advertising works but I can't see why they don't have a sales staff that pursues advertising and tells advertisers what's space is available on the car. If they got a title sponsor they could move Honda back to it's original spot. Needless to say, I think putting the drivers names on the sidepod is the better solution. ALTHOUGH, I don't see why unless if the rules forbid it, why they don't advertise the McLaren P1 on their F1 cars? The same goes for Ferrari when Santander leaves and they are waiting for a title sponsor as well.

[DChaps]

Sidepods are prime real estate, relinquished only to companies that spend at primary sponsor levels. Teams can't devalue their property.

The reason is what Paul mentioned above. Sidepod advertising is a valued property.



I don't know how accurate it is, but this image is from a pretty cool report on the F1 advertising model.

http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/asset ... shipF1.pdf

Visibility and Sponsorship Business Model in Formula 1

HISTORY – The exemplar firm and others:
In the very early years of F1 no sponsorship activity was in place. It was Colin Chapman (car designer, F1 racer,
and founder of Lotus Team) who introduced major advertising sponsorship into auto racing, beginning the
process, which transformed Formula One from a hobby of wealthy gentlemen to a multibillion high technology
industry. Chapman in 1966 persuaded the Ford Motor Company to sponsor Cosworth0s development of what
would become the DFV race engine. As F1 went global, and televisions started broadcasting the races around in
several countries, it emerged the possibility for brands and organization to use F1 as a window to advertise their
products and brands, by sponsoring individual F1 teams competing on the racetrack.

CUSTOMERS - who are they:
The customers are companies that are interested in promoting their brand and activity by associating it to
racing teams and more in general with F1. They are usually global brands and consumer companies, as the high
costs of advertising in F1 are justified by the possibility of reaching a global audience. Therefore, this business
model is usually not particularly appealing for firms who do not have global ambitions.

ENGAGEMENT – value creation proposition (including network effects):
The strength of F1’s fans engagement is proved not only by its TV audience figures (around 500 million viewers
per year), but also by the tremendous amount of media dedicated top F1, such as websites, blogs, magazines,
books, reports, and publicly available databases, which are often developed and updated by F1 fans themselves.
To increase fans’ engagement, F1 firms have recently enhanced their marketing skills by establishing dedicated
departments to take care of the team’s official websites and social media channels, as well as coordinating
activities of the official team’s fan clubs.

[Rodster]

double post

[Rodster]

Thanks for that Don. OK so the airbox and sidepod ads are the same price. Them placing the Honda logo instead of saying "Powered by Honda" is on the airbox below Mobil 1. Temporarily putting it on the sidepods if they choose not to put anything else on the sidepods isn't affecting them anyway.

When I see them using "Honda" instead of "Powered By Honda" i'm seeing a 'quid pro quo' here.

[pk500]

Engine manufacturers want their names on ... wait for it, wait for it, wait for it ... the engine cover, if they're not a manufacturer team.

Look at almost every non-factory F1 team and every IndyCar team. The engine manufacturer's logo or name is on the airbox/engine cover.

[XXXIV]

Seb was a second faster than kimi today.

Since Vettel aint so good....Does that mean kimi sux? We have already established the Webber is a piece of s***.

I hads to post that....All seems so strange to me.

[Rodster]

Seb was a second faster than kimi today.

Since Vettel aint so good....Does that mean kimi sux? We have already established the Webber is a piece of s***.

I hads to post that....All seems so strange to me.

Vettel was sporting new aero bodywork on his car. Kimi got the hand me downs. Kimi has been awful throughout the year in qualifying. His race pace tends to be much better but starting further back exposes him to first lap or early race contact as he's encountered so far this year.

[XXXIV]

Seb was a second faster than kimi today.

Since Vettel aint so good....Does that mean kimi sux? We have already established the Webber is a piece of s***.

I hads to post that....All seems so strange to me.

Vettel was sporting new aero bodywork on his car. Kimi got the hand me downs. Kimi has been awful throughout the year in qualifying. His race pace tends to be much better but starting further back exposes him to first lap or early race contact as he's encountered so far this year.

Rod,

I am getting the idea that you hate Vettel the way I hated Terry Bradshaw. Cool.

[Rodster]

Rod,

I am getting the idea that you hate Vettel the way I hated Terry Bradshaw. Cool.

Let's just say I dislike Vettel a little less than Alonso but not by much.

[GB_Simo]

Well, that was dull.

There's something badly awry if Hamilton can't pass Vettel on track, going as far as to say it was impossible, even though car and driver are quick enough to bugger off into the far distance as soon as the air ahead is clear. Standard problems for aero-dependent cars, yes, but this is the first Pirelli year where we've really seen quicker cars unable to make massive progress. Then again, perhaps it's just a Barcelona thing. Whatever it is, I didn't much enjoy it.

I still had more fun than Jenson Button, though.

[XXXIV]

Well, that was dull.

There's something badly awry if Hamilton can't pass Vettel on track, going as far as to say it was impossible, even though car and driver are quick enough to bugger off into the far distance as soon as the air ahead is clear. Standard problems for aero-dependent cars, yes, but this is the first Pirelli year where we've really seen quicker cars unable to make massive progress. Then again, perhaps it's just a Barcelona thing. Whatever it is, I didn't much enjoy it.

I still had more fun than Jenson Button, though.

Put me back to sleep.