Backbreaker Preview - Natural Motion based football title

[ScoopBrady]

bk, if you don't want to say I understand, but I'm curious how many hours you would estimate you put into BB, and whether you created any teams or played anybody online. Again, I completely understand the game's not for everybody, and in particular big Madden fans don't seem to like BB all that much, but it's the part of your comment about the "poorly executed/implemented x's and o's" that has me wondering.

I totally agree with bk. You honestly don't see poorly executed/implemented x's and o's? Seriously? You don't see the cpu field punts in their own endzone and return them to the 4-yard-line? You don't see the cpu go for it on 4th-down (both short distances and long distances) deep in their own end early in the game? You don't see the cpu quarterback throw backwards passes towards the sidelines that result in big losses at least 4-5 times per game?

When I see over-the-top, unrealistic stuff going on with the physics combined with the AI (or whatever you want to call it) problems I mentioned above it is extremely hard for me to take this game seriously. On the plays where the physics work and the AI (or whatever you want to call it) is up to snuff this game shows a ton of promise. I, for one, would rather have a product that delivers more often than not than one that shows promise.

You also mention that the game is not for everybody, and in particular big Madden fans don't seem to like it. That may be the case but I would totally disagree with you in saying that is the case here. I can't speak for guys like bk, danimal, or db but I know I'm just a fan of football games in general. I don't need to the game to be a perfect sim, I'm just looking for fun. I enjoy any football game that delivers fun while getting most of the x's and o's right. I've been a fan of previous versions of Fever, 2k, and Gameday over Madden. I want to love this game, honestly, I do. I just can't. Oh, and I've put in at least 15-20 hours into this game so I think I've given it a fair shake.

[Danimal]

You also mention that the game is not for everybody, and in particular big Madden fans don't seem to like it. That may be the case but I would totally disagree with you in saying that is the case here. I can't speak for guys like bk, danimal, or db but I know I'm just a fan of football games in general. I don't need to the game to be a perfect sim, I'm just looking for fun.

This!

I would still play FPSFB if I could get the damm thing to run. To me the perfect football game would have the graphics of these next gen games but allow me to just coach. Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing the games, but my opinion has always been once you take control of a player you've cut the sim aspect out of it by a good percentage. I like Madden (usually) because it has some fun to it. I loved APF, I loved 2K4 (yes I like it better then 2k5 I know I am in the minority) one of my favorite games of all time was ProSim Football and GridIron on the Amiga.

I'm not sure why to you everyone who doesn't like this game must be a Madden fanboy. I think that is utterly ridiculous assumption to make, if I was that big of a Madden fan I wouldn't of even bought this game. I have better thing to spend $40 then a game for the sole purpose of trashing it.

There is a big market for games out there and this game did not sell that means it did not appeal to a lot of people. Was it marketing? Was it the game play choices? I'm not qualified to answer that for anyone else but myself. I'm glad there is a core group of hardcore fans who like it, but guess what there was a hard core group of fans who liked Star Wars Galaxies too that doesn't make either game a masterpiece.

What is becoming tiresome is that if you don't like this game your football knowledge is being questioned. I know some of use played college ball, I know a few of us also coached ball at some higher levels. A lot of us see problems with the game, I don't understand why how many hours we put into it matters.

[GTHobbes]

Didn't mean to make anyone defensive. Just saw the same couple of guys talking about the x's and o's and I was interested to know details, as I haven't seen any of those things in the 150+ games I've played (granted, 99.9% of my games have been against another human being). If you think Tiburon's got the x's and o's better than BB, based on what I've seen, we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

[Danimal]

Didn't mean to make anyone defensive. Just saw the same couple of guys talking about the x's and o's and I was interested to know details, as I haven't seen any of those things in the 150+ games I've played (granted, 99.9% of my games have been against another human being). If you think Tiburon's got the x's and o's better than BB, based on what I've seen, we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

You've just literally contradicted yourself. You play 99.9% of your games online, so how would you see problems. Even a madden hater will tell you that playing against another human makes the game better.

How about addressing the 3 things Scoop mentioned instead of ignoring them.

They happen all the time in BB, they don't happen in Madden.

How about besides tackling you name 3 things the BB AI does better then most games. It be more interesting if this discussion as based on facts instead of just my opinion > your opinion.

So address Scoop's 3 complaints and tell us why they aren't legit and then give me 3 AI things BB does better.

[GTHobbes]

Even a madden hater will tell you that playing against another human makes the game better.

Really? Based on what I've read about Madden this year, playing against another human is a horrible scorefest where nobody can stop each other. It's not really fair for me to judge though since I've only played the demo.

In the offline game I played against the Natural Motion team the other day, I didn't see the cpu AI do ANY of the 3 things that Scoop mentioned. In fact, I saw the cpu put together a decent 2 minute offense drive at the end of the first half, complete 8 of 13 passes against me and otherwise give me a decent game. Maybe I just suck, or didn't notice something that I should've. But online, there are NO computer related gaffes -- and things that Madden has never gotten right are great in BB (no nano blitzes, play action passes and counter and stretch plays that actually work, no warping or balls glitching through body parts, no DB's intercepting passes that they never could've seen coming, etc.)

For my money, BB gets the x's and o's right far more than Tiburon's game, and it's not even close. Again, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Glad you guys have a game that you like, and that I do as well this year (been a long time coming).

[bkrich83]

bk, if you don't want to say I understand, but I'm curious how many hours you would estimate you put into BB, and whether you created any teams or played anybody online. Again, I completely understand the game's not for everybody, and in particular big Madden fans don't seem to like BB all that much, but it's the part of your comment about the "poorly executed/implemented x's and o's" that has me wondering.

First of all, I don't classify myself as a big Madden fan. Madden 10 is the first one that I could stomach for more than a few games, although I do have to say I am enjoying NCAA 11 and Madden 11 more than I have any EA football game since about 2004.

Tough to say on the hours. Pre-Patch I played a full season, with my created team, plus a significant number of exhibition games to get the feel for it. Post patch, not as many hours, as I just haven't had the time, and I just wasn't enjoying the game. I didn't play online at all, but to be honest I don't really play online much, it just doesn't appeal to me for whatever reason.

X's and O's the run blocking for various plays vs. the various fronts is not done well. Actually it's tough for me to distinguish much of a difference at all in the different run plays as far as how the different plays/schemes should be executed. Pass coverages are inconsistent, at times they behave like you would expect the coverage to, but at other times they don't. All in all from an X's and O's perspective it doesn't feel like football. It feels like some plays drawn on a chalkboard, but the logic behind them doesn't really take in to account how the play should be executed vs. what the other team is doing, nor does it feel like what each play is trying to accomplish is understood. Ugghh, that doesn't make sense, I am not able to convey on a message board very well what I am trying to say.

To me, from a purely X's and O's viewpoint, it simply doesn't feel like football. The biggest thing for me NCAA did, for example was revamp their run blocking. And it's evident. You call a stretch play vs. an even/under front, and the oline tries to block that exact type of play vs. that front. You call that same play vs. an odd/base front it blocks it the way it's supposed to. (Generally speaking). You can really tell a difference between the different run plays and how they are supposed to be blocked, and how as a RB you would attack the defense using that play. Stretches, Power O's, Iso's, Counter's, even Wham plays all have distinct feels to them etc. I never got that feeling with BB.

As scoop mentioned the little things such as returning punts out of the endzone add to my frustration.

And above all the Camera, just doesn't do it for me. I know some people love it, I can respect that. But I find it along with the clunky controls to select a receiver to throw to, to be offputting. Plus it does tend to actually give me a headache after some extended game time.

I love the physics for the most part, other than the actual player models, I love the graphics and overall aesthetics to the game. I just find the actual nuts and bolts of football to be lacking, even moreso than the EA games (and we all know they have their own issues, but imo, they have improved a lot), and the camera and control scheme to be offputting.

All that being said, I can't wait to see what they do to it next year, and will give it another shot on their next release. For me though, it's simply not the football game savior it was touted to be, and it just doesn't hold my attention.

[Rodster]

In spurts I seem to enjoy BB mostly for the tackles. I'll keep it regardless and hope they fix a few things before moving onto BB2.

[ScoopBrady]

But online, there are NO computer related gaffes -- and things that Madden has never gotten right are great in BB (no nano blitzes, play action passes and counter and stretch plays that actually work, no warping or balls glitching through body parts, no DB's intercepting passes that they never could've seen coming, etc.)

No warping?


How about some warping and ball glitching at the same time?


Ball morphing interception? Sure.


How about a ball warping, ball glitching, ball morphing interception rolled into one? You got it.


Real world physics, baby!












My tongue is firmly in cheek.

[GTHobbes]

Fair enough, bk, and I appreciate the response. It seemed like you were sticking up for Madden on the OS boards more this year than anytime I can remember (and that game's taking a real beating over there this year), which is why I was interested to hear your comparison between the 2 games. I disagree with your take overall -- but I certainly respect your opinion.

[Danimal]

Really? Based on what I've read about Madden this year, playing against another human is a horrible scorefest where nobody can stop each other. It's not really fair for me to judge though since I've only played the demo.

An BB was an interception fest post patch. Point being human play disguises poor AI. Lets stay on point. We're discussing how the computer AI plays football.

In the offline game I played against the Natural Motion team the other day, I didn't see the cpu AI do ANY of the 3 things that Scoop mentioned. In fact, I saw the cpu put together a decent 2 minute offense drive at the end of the first half, complete 8 of 13 passes against me and otherwise give me a decent game. Maybe I just suck, or didn't notice something that I should've.

Maybe you don't play enough single player. the things Scoop mention happen way too often for you to not see them. You either don't play enough SP or you choose not to see them. Whatever your reason is, it doesn't change the fact that they do exist this is not debatable.

But online, there are NO computer related gaffes -- and things that Madden has never gotten right are great in BB (no nano blitzes, play action passes and counter and stretch plays that actually work, no warping or balls glitching through body parts, no DB's intercepting passes that they never could've seen coming, etc.)

See Scoops videos...next

For my money, BB gets the x's and o's right far more than Tiburon's game, and it's not even close.

I'm not disusing warping or Nano blitz. I'm talking about the AI making football decisions. I' still waiting for one clear example of where BB AI makes better decisions then EA's AI.

[TRI]

The physics in Backbreaker are not perfect but still much better than Madden NFL 11. This is only the first edition and already has the best physics and tackling relative to all other video football games. Backbreaker certainly has many issues that must be fixed, though overall it is a great effort for a first edition. Madden has been developed since 1989!

[GTHobbes]

An BB was an interception fest post patch. Point being human play disguises poor AI. Lets stay on point. We're discussing how the computer AI plays football.

Do you mean pre-patch? Haven't seen anybody complain about interceptions post-patch in Backbreaker (really the only complaint I've seen is with the running game, and that's a fair criticism, IMO, as it was much better pre-patch).

Maybe you don't play enough single player. the things Scoop mention happen way too often for you to not see them. You either don't play enough SP or you choose not to see them. Whatever your reason is, it doesn't change the fact that they do exist this is not debatable.

Thought I had been clear -- I've played one complete game offline with BB. The rest has been online, where there's no issues worth speaking of in terms of gameplay or glitches.

I'm not disusing warping or Nano blitz. I'm talking about the AI making football decisions. I' still waiting for one clear example of where BB AI makes better decisions then EA's AI.

What about play action passes? Doesn't that qualify? For crying out loud, it took Tiburon 6 whole years to make the ball spin the right way in replays on PS3. Does that sound like a dev team that knows their x's from their o's to you?

[Danimal]

Do you mean pre-patch? Haven't seen anybody complain about interceptions post-patch in Backbreaker (really the only complaint I've seen is with the running game, and that's a fair criticism, IMO, as it was much better pre-patch).

Yes sorry typo.

Thought I had been clear -- I've played one complete game offline with BB. The rest has been online, where there's no issues worth speaking of in terms of gameplay or glitches.

Sorry I did not get that you have played one offline game that would explain a lot.

What about play action passes? Doesn't that qualify? For crying out loud, it took Tiburon 6 whole years to make the ball spin the right way in replays on PS3. Does that sound like a dev team that knows their x's from their o's to you?

Well PA passes, among other things are working like s*** in M11. I didn't see an issue with them in 10. I'm not aware of what the issue with PA passes in general is in EA games. Meaning if it's been a long term issue I am unaware of it. Since you choose this as an example, what exactly is better about PA passes in BB that is messed up in M10?

As far as ball spinning the right way, cosmetic doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Not saying that it wasn't a s*** thing to be broken just saying not somethign I would ever notice.

I'm doing my best to keep this to one thing which is AI, you seem to want to turn it into how Tiburon sucks. You win that one, I think they are a mediocre dev studio when it comes to Madden. There is really no point in further discussing this if we can't even talk about specific things one AI does better then the other with examples.

[GTHobbes]

I'm doing my best to keep this to one thing which is AI, you seem to want to turn it into how Tiburon sucks. You win that one, I think they are a mediocre dev studio when it comes to Madden. There is really no point in further discussing this if we can't even talk about specific things one AI does better then the other with examples.

Fair enough, Dan. I've never been able to use play action passes in Madden -- every year it seems it's the same "get killed as soon as you fake the hand-off," whereas in BB, those plays seem to run as they should. I only pointed out the football spinning thing because it's representative of other things that make me think the Tiburon guys don't know as much as they should about the basics of football, like how a ball bounces when it hits the ground (it's always behaved much like a brick in Madden), 20 years of a piss poor running game (though I hear this year's is much better), etc.

[Danimal]

I've never been able to use play action passes in Madden -- every year it seems it's the same "get killed as soon as you fake the hand-off," whereas in BB, those plays seem to run as they should.

Well that is definitely a problem this year but it wasn't in 10. Ask anyone in our online league if they hated me PA passing to the Denver fullback, especially the Titans it worked exactly as it should last year and this year it is completely broken. Honestly I didn't spend much time on M8 or M9 to recall if this was an issue then.

Anyway point taken BB does better PA passes then M11, but if comparing it to 10 which was one of the best games in the series they were the same IMO.

[bkrich83]

What about play action passes? Doesn't that qualify? For crying out loud, it took Tiburon 6 whole years to make the ball spin the right way in replays on PS3. Does that sound like a dev team that knows their x's from their o's to you?

I'll be honest I am not having much problem with the PA pass. If I set up my run game, it works pretty well. If they catch me in all out blitz, it gets blown up. Guess what someone brings the house vs. a PA pass, much of the time, the results won't be good for the offense.

Ball does spin the right way on replays, but if you are going there, you're reaching for things.

[bkrich83]

The physics in Backbreaker are not perfect but still much better than Madden NFL 11. This is only the first edition and already has the best physics and tackling relative to all other video football games. Backbreaker certainly has many issues that must be fixed, though overall it is a great effort for a first edition. Madden has been developed since 1989!

My problem with the physics of the game, is I can't distingiush enough the differences between the players. For the first time, pretty much ever Madden/NCAA I can really tell the difference between the players when controlling them. The tackles in BB are at times a little over the top, but I agree, there's a lot to work with in that engine. The players seem stiff when they move as well, but I think that's cosmetic more than anything else.

As far as Madden being developed since 1989, it certainly shows. For me this year in particular Madden/NCAA are infinitely more playable than they ever have been. As a franchise/dynasty player, having those features obviously adds more to the package for me. BB no injuries means depth for you roster is pointless. Etc.

BB is a nice first effort, but they simply get too many football things wrong to start acting like it's made this giant leap in football gaming. Not to mention, yes it's a first effort but it was in development for years, and hasn't as of yet had to deal with the constraints of a yearly release cycle.

[Zeppo]

I'm reticent to chime in here, as I don't have BB and don't really want to get in the middle of it, but to claim that the PA pass is plain broken in Madden 11 is simply inaccurate. I played an exhibition game today against the Ravens, and I had quite a few good PA passes that froze LBs, and/or froze DEs, even one seemed to freeze a safety for a moment letting my guy get over the top. Sure, I've had plenty of PA plays get blown up with a sack, but then again I've foolishly called some PA plays on 3rd and long, and so what should I expect.

But I have seen them work in Madden 11. Not always; but certainly not never.

And now, back to you guys. . . .

[GTHobbes]

I'm reticent to chime in here, as I don't have BB and don't really want to get in the middle of it, but to claim that the PA pass is plain broken in Madden 11 is simply inaccurate. I played an exhibition game today against the Ravens, and I had quite a few good PA passes that froze LBs, and/or froze DEs, even one seemed to freeze a safety for a moment letting my guy get over the top. Sure, I've had plenty of PA plays get blown up with a sack, but then again I've foolishly called some PA plays on 3rd and long, and so what should I expect.

But I have seen them work in Madden 11. Not always; but certainly not never.

And now, back to you guys. . . .

Fair enough, Zeppo...again, my comment about PA passes was based on what I've read from others and what I saw in the 2 games of the demo I played (and my inability to use PA in past versions with much success). If I'm way off, my bad.

[bkrich83]

I'm reticent to chime in here, as I don't have BB and don't really want to get in the middle of it, but to claim that the PA pass is plain broken in Madden 11 is simply inaccurate. I played an exhibition game today against the Ravens, and I had quite a few good PA passes that froze LBs, and/or froze DEs, even one seemed to freeze a safety for a moment letting my guy get over the top. Sure, I've had plenty of PA plays get blown up with a sack, but then again I've foolishly called some PA plays on 3rd and long, and so what should I expect.

But I have seen them work in Madden 11. Not always; but certainly not never.

And now, back to you guys. . . .

I had a great Boot action play on the goaline that got a TD pass to my wide open TE last night. PA/Boot action plays work, just have to pick your spots.

[ScoopBrady]

I don't see an issue with play-action passes in the Madden franchise at all. They work well if they're set up and get blown up on occasion too, like happens in real football.

[TRI]

The physics in Backbreaker are not perfect but still much better than Madden NFL 11. This is only the first edition and already has the best physics and tackling relative to all other video football games. Backbreaker certainly has many issues that must be fixed, though overall it is a great effort for a first edition. Madden has been developed since 1989!

My problem with the physics of the game, is I can't distingiush enough the differences between the players. For the first time, pretty much ever Madden/NCAA I can really tell the difference between the players when controlling them. The tackles in BB are at times a little over the top, but I agree, there's a lot to work with in that engine. The players seem stiff when they move as well, but I think that's cosmetic more than anything else.

As far as Madden being developed since 1989, it certainly shows. For me this year in particular Madden/NCAA are infinitely more playable than they ever have been. As a franchise/dynasty player, having those features obviously adds more to the package for me. BB no injuries means depth for you roster is pointless. Etc.

BB is a nice first effort, but they simply get too many football things wrong to start acting like it's made this giant leap in football gaming. Not to mention, yes it's a first effort but it was in development for years, and hasn't as of yet had to deal with the constraints of a yearly release cycle.

Madden seems too scripted and predictable for me. I can understand people who love a boring 20 year old game that does not change much year to year. It is sentimental and they hate change even change for the better. Madden is a good game it just does not change enough from year to year for a lot people to buy it every year.

Backbreaker has a lot of issues too such as the awful AI and the poor blocking. It has its positives though like the huge variation in animation and collisions. Remember Backbreaker is a new game and most new games require more than one year to develop and they do not have to release a new game every year so there is time to fix the flaws. I would give the edge to Madden this year overall mainly because it has much more depth. I believe Backbreaker has much much more potential than Madden.

[FifaInspected]

This conversation is not helping in my decision to actually open the game (BB) that is sitting on my shelf.....

[Sport73]

FIFA,

If you really like/love Madden, don't open BB. If you think Madden is a bit stale and unrealistic, open BB.

[GTHobbes]

FIFA,

If you really like/love Madden, don't open BB. If you think Madden is a bit stale and unrealistic, open BB.

I second this.