OT: Racing 2010 (Spoiler Alert)

[Gurantsu]

I'm wondering what you guys thought about the Indycar announcement about the new car. I think it sounds like a good idea, with a standard chassis to keep costs down, but then letting other companies design the aero package. I hope we get to see some interesting designs, although I don't want it to turn into the F1 philosophy of "where can we squeeze in another wing?"

Whats the general feeling about it at IMS PK?

[Dave]

I'm wondering what you guys thought about the Indycar announcement about the new car. I think it sounds like a good idea, with a standard chassis to keep costs down, but then letting other companies design the aero package. I hope we get to see some interesting designs, although I don't want it to turn into the F1 philosophy of "where can we squeeze in another wing?"

On paper, at least, I like the approach. Dallara has built a safe tub (witness Mike Conway at Indy) but an ugly, stagnant car since it has become a spec series. This concept could/should lead to a number of different designs and hopefully will shake up the grid a little bit.

Of course, the aero kit theory could all go wrong and we end up with nothing but Dallara tubs and aero kits. At least it is a shot at something different.

[F308GTB]

FYI - http://vimeo.com/groups/5902/videos/13014363

Awesome HD video of a Porsche GT3 at the Pikes Peak hillclimb this year. New class record.

[Rodster]

I got up late so didn't watch the race only to read at Autosport.com that Alonso wins the German GP after Massa beat him on the first lap or corner and he was told to let him thru on the last lap, shades of Austria Part Deux. Do the dolts running Ferrari ever learn? I hate that guy even though he drives for my favorite team. Can't wait for the fireworks and fallout of that episode. I really, really hope they both get disqualified so we can watch Luca have a hissy fit.

But like everyone said Alonso IS #1 at that team and Massa is #2, I think someone didn't tell him he shares something in common with Ruebens other than Nationality.

And on the front page there's a flexible front wing saga that's just starting to bubble. Would it be if F1 if it weren't for all the soap opera?

[GB_Simo]

I haven't totally got my thoughts together on the Ferrari business, which is bad news considering I'm halfway through blogging about it. I understand why they did it, but I don't agree with it. I don't think the team orders rule is workable, because it relies upon a team being hopelessly, stupidly transparent about it, but it's there to be obeyed, which Ferrari didn't...

It's about lap 25-ish at the Brickyard as I type, just as cover for the failure that's bound to follow, but JPM is driving the wheels off that thing.

[Dave]

It's about lap 25-ish at the Brickyard as I type, just as cover for the failure that's bound to follow, but JPM is driving the wheels off that thing.

Talk about a literal description. Hope JPM can overcome that early stop.

[GB_Simo]

I can't help but feel partly responsible. This caution for a piece of lint in turn 2 is only going to help him, though.

[Jimmydeicide]

[quote="GB_Simo"]I haven't totally got my thoughts together on the Ferrari business, which is bad news considering I'm halfway through blogging about it. I understand why they did it, but I don't agree with it. I don't think the team orders rule is workable, because it relies upon a team being hopelessly, stupidly transparent about it, but it's there to be obeyed, which Ferrari didn't... /[quote]


I guess bottom line could be if Phil had got as much out of the car as Alonso did earlier on in the season this wouldn't have been an issue.
Still doesn't make Alonso's whining any more palatable.(ass) I liked the way Phil let him by tho

[Rodster]

There are obviously little to no Fernando fans with the Media.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

Excerpts:
Q. (Byron Young – The Daily Mirror) The reality is, though, that you couldn't beat him on the track, so you had to get the team to do it for you.

FA: If that's your opinion.

Q. (Byron Young – The Daily Mirror) I'm asking you, is that not your opinion?

FA: No.

Q. (Byron Young – The Daily Mirror) He had to give you this win, didn't he, Fernando?

FA: No.

Q. (Ian Parkes – The Press Association) Fernando, you've said that you're happy with this win but to be honest, I've never seen a driver look less happy in the middle of a podium there today, and in the middle of this press conference here. Why can't you just be honest with us for once, and just admit that this win was handed to you on a plate today?

[toonarmy]

In reading all the post-race comments, it was obvious that Massa was pissed off. The comments of Dominecali resembled a kid who has just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. F1 needs to make up its mind on team orders. Either deal out real punishment or allow team orders. The whole team order thing is a silly charade. Everyone knows orders are being given in a variety of ways, but obviously nobody is going to admit team orders are being given. If Alonso was so much faster than Massa then he should have had no problem passing him. That is the way I look at the situation. F1 wants to be considered a sport, but it is races such as the one today that makes it look bush-league and anti-competitive. I understand the concern for points and the team, but there has to be a point where the individual driver's interest in winning a race has to trump everything. The fact that today's incident involved that whiny b*tch Alonso fires me up all the more.

[Rodster]

I feel for Massa but damn I wish Webber was in Massa's seat today so he could tell , Ferrari, Smedley, Stefano Domicelli and Alonso all to f##k off over the radio.

[Dave]

Which was worse today:

Ferrari's "no team orders here!" ordeal

or

Brian Barnhart taking the win away from Castroneves for blocking. WTF, nice moment to choose to literally apply the rulebook for the first time.

[toonarmy]

Which was worse today:

Ferrari's "no team orders here!" ordeal

or

Brian Barnhart taking the win away from Castroneves for blocking. WTF, nice moment to choose to literally apply the rulebook for the first time.

The decision by Barnhart surprised just about everyone, including the other drivers. That has to be one of the more inane racing decisions I have ever seen. It's beyond comical reading Barnhart's justification for the decision. If I had been Helio I think I would have done more than he did to the race officials after the race. It's really a pity about the race being decided on a stupid Barney Fife moment by Barnhart because the IRL is trying to establish itself as something other than a second-rate series, and to some degree has been succeeding. I guess racing is becoming more show and less sport. Gosh forbid if a driver tries to defend position late in the race on restart. LMAO! What a crock this all is.

[davet010]

I don't see the problem with it - there are 'team orders' in most other sports of this type, and this 'best driver on the day etc etc..' stuff is more of a hark back to the old days of privateer entries than to the realities of the sport as it is today.

[F308GTB]

I don't see the problem with it - there are 'team orders' in most other sports of this type, and this 'best driver on the day etc etc..' stuff is more of a hark back to the old days of privateer entries than to the realities of the sport as it is today.

OK, so best driver on the day was who? The "pass" was made on lap 49 of 67. In 18 laps Alonso managed a whopping 4 second lead over Massa. I could see if Alonso were 1-2 sec/lap faster, but honestly both Ferraris were evenly matched and driven Sunday. I'm a Ferrari fan, but this was bullpuck.

[Rodster]

I don't see the problem with it - there are 'team orders' in most other sports of this type, and this 'best driver on the day etc etc..' stuff is more of a hark back to the old days of privateer entries than to the realities of the sport as it is today.

OK, so best driver on the day was who? The "pass" was made on lap 49 of 67. In 18 laps Alonso managed a whopping 4 second lead over Massa. I could see if Alonso were 1-2 sec/lap faster, but honestly both Ferraris were evenly matched and driven Sunday. I'm a Ferrari fan, but this was bullpuck.

I think the people who run Ferrari and their #1 Alonso deserve each other. Any wonder why both Luca Di Montezemolo and Fred love to throw their toys out of the pram when they don't get their way? I used to be a huge Ferrari fan but no more. As far as i'm concerned I hope they get their asses handed to them including losing all of their points. Their President sums it up and mirrors Alonso's personality, the ends justify the means no matter how many causalities they create.

Ferrari slam 'hypocrisy' of critics
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26072010/ ... itics.html

I'm officially rooting for anybody but Ferrari this year.

[GB_Simo]

I don't see the problem with it - there are 'team orders' in most other sports of this type, and this 'best driver on the day etc etc..' stuff is more of a hark back to the old days of privateer entries than to the realities of the sport as it is today.

The problem with it is Article 39.1 - "Team orders which interfere with the race result are prohibited." The problem with Article 39.1, a point David Coulthard made very well post-race yesterday, is that Article 39.1 is a terrible rule...

Had it not been for Ferrari's cack-handed switcheroo in the 2002 Austrian race, when Rubens Barrichello spent several laps refusing to let Schumacher by and made a very public show of lifting off right at the finish line, Article 39.1 would never have came into being. The rule's intention was to stop that kind of blatant fiddling from taking place - Schumi was miles ahead in the championship, Rubinho had outdriven him all weekend as he always did in Austria, and there was no reason to deprive Rubens of his win.

The rule was never designed to completely stop teams favouring one driver in the championship, because common sense dictates that if one driver needs the points desperately, his team mate will effectively become his wingman. Witness, for example, Raikkonen letting Massa by in China in 2008, or Felipe letting Kimi through in Brazil the year before - had he not done so, Lewis Hamilton would be a double world champion. You can colour those in any way you wish, and say that the drivers had an agreement or whatever, but it remains manipulation of the race result, and yet you'd expect no different, surely?

It's not that the manipulation is inherently wrong, and it's not that it's a new phenomenon - a similar switching of Ferraris in Mexico City won John Surtees his world title in 1964, for example. To me, it's an issue of timing, not concept, the problem being simply that it shouldn't be done at this stage of the season - Massa is some way back but it remains just about within the realms of possibility that he could win the world title. The points difference between the two drivers, had Massa been left to take the win his performance merited, would have been such that a Massa win this weekend in Hungary while Alonso failed to finish would have made Massa Ferrari's leading title contender...

[GB_Simo]

Chaps,

I know you all get to see Top Gear, and I know from experience that you don't get to see all of it (the BBC stations here are non-commercial and the show lasts an hour. BBC America is full of commercials, and the show lasts an hour...). You probably also don't get to see Jeremy Clarkson's more serious work - when he puts his mind to it, he's a fine documentary maker.

Last week's show had an Ayrton Senna tribute in it, which was up on YouTube in 2 parts. Part 1 has already gone on copyright grounds, though it seems there are a lot of part 2 available, such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_SQ1TI9A4A

Worth a look for a brief reminder of what Senna could do, and for the genuine knowledge and enthusiasm shown by a star of the current grid.

[toonarmy]

Watched both parts. Wow! Great link. That in-car segment at around the 3:25 mark in part 1 is awesome. Fun to see the emotion of Lewis when given the chance to drive the car of his idol.

[DChaps]

Amazingly, I managed to pretty much avoid news and forums until I had a chance to watch the F1, Nascar and Indycar races from the Tivo last night. Good grief! What a crappy weekend on all accounts. Massa is denied a fantastic race and comeback story, Helio seems to get the screw job, and JPM is becoming the Michael Andretti of the Brickyard 400.

Based on the rule, it may be completely correct how the penalty was handed out to Helio, but watching the race as a spectator, I just don't get it. Where is the block? It seems like nice close racing where both competitors raced hard but gave some room. I may be too uniformed of the rule to understand it though. I would like to see a Madden-esque view of where the block is. Tony Kanaan commented:

From a driver's perspective, I can see why Helio didn't agree with it. He didn't think he did anything wrong. He never pulled in front of Will and obviously "block" him. But, from the viewpoint of the officials, Helio drove in a part of the track that made it impossible for Will to pass him. Helio did not drive on the "racing line" into the corner, which made it an illegal move in their eyes.

I just don't see that. That's what I would like to see drawn out on a picture, because it is completely unclear to me. I don't consider myself a casual fan, but I must be. Looked like good honest racing to me.

[pk500]

For as much as everyone is criticizing Brian Barnhart over the call, the rule was designed to ENCOURAGE overtaking by preventing drivers from using a blocking line.

If Brian doesn't enforce that rule, people will complain that there's not enough overtaking on IZOD IndyCar Series road/street course races. If he does enforce the rule, then he's seen as not allowing "proper racing." F*cked if he does; f*cked if he doesn't.

Honestly, I think we're all jaded by the FIA's horrible interpretation of "one move." Charlie Whiting and the FIA stewards are pathetically inept and inconsistent in their blocking calls. Some of the weaving and chopping allowed in F1 is appalling and, again, deters overtaking. But we see it so often in F1 that it's almost considered the ethical driving standard for open-wheel road course racing. Well, it's NOT, and it shouldn't be.

So what's "proper racing" to you guys? Promoting overtaking with enforcement of a rule that was spelled out clearly in the drivers' meeting, or "have it it, boys" leading to possible deterrence of overtaking and cracked carbon fiber?

It's not an easy choice to make. I know I'm still torn, four days after the race.

[DChaps]

Yeah, I hear what you are saying Paul, I don't think Barnhart made the wrong call based on the rule. In fact, I just read some of Brian and Scott Dixon's comments on Autosport and if I had not seen the race, I would say it sounds cut and dry based on the rule and what happened when I read the words. And I get the point of why the rule is there.

I am just saying it is really unclear to me where the infraction is when I actually watch the replay. Even the race commentators seemed to be confused. I am completely admitting my inability to see the racing lines and apply it to the rule, so I understand the complication. For example, if there was a picture where someone circles where Helio is now on the blocking line vs. the racing line that would help me see it. And more importantly, where Dixon's subsequent move on Power is not the same infraction if not absolute blocking. From a fan/spectator perspective it just sucks to be watching and not get it. Same would apply to the F1 debacle. Of course that happens in all sports (see 50% of World Cup matches).

To me there is not enough overtaking on street courses because street courses just suck to begin with. I don't think there is much you can do to the rules, drivers, or cars that will ever change that on a street course. Even when you and I used to debate on the whole CART/IRL split, one thing we both agreed on at the time were that steet courses suck outside of Long Beach and Monaco. I only include those two venues for racing history's sake, not because there is actually good racing there.

[toonarmy]

Street courses are not conducive to overtaking for the most part, and most fans understand that they are not going to see nearly as much overtaking on a street course as opposed to an oval. I can fully understand the rule's intent, however the time and circumstances in which it was applied this past weekend was a joke. These guys are competitive race car drivers with a huge drive to win. If Helio had been weaving back and forth to block late in the race then I would agree that is blatantly unfair. What I saw from the replay was smart driving in an attempt to win a race, without doing anything ridiculously unfair. Now if he had been doing that lap after lap and received a warning, yet continued to do it that late in the race then I think he should be stripped of the win. That was not the case, though, and a sorry-ass nitpicky decision was made to take the win away from him. As a general fan of the sport it pisses me off to spend the time watching an entire race, only to find out after the end some garbage decision was made by a non-driver to decide the race. Perhaps the exact letter of the law was followed, but that doesn't make it the right decision. I am sure the exact letter of the law is not followed on every lap of every race. A little discretion on the part of Barnhart would be nice. You just don't take a race win away from someone at that juncture of the race based on what Helio did.

[pk500]

A bit of context that shouldn't be discounted: Helio Castroneves is the most serial blocker in the IZOD IndyCar Series. It's also acknowledged in the paddock that his attention span in drivers' meetings sometimes lasts about about two minutes. Those factors may have influenced Barnhart's decision.

Go to the 2:11 mark of this video, and Barnhart couldn't have been more clear in the Edmonton drivers' meeting about splitting the track in half in the braking zones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6LWropo

Disclaimer: I should have said Helio is most serial blocker among drivers at speed. That gets Milka off the hook.

[DChaps]

Disclaimer: I should have said Helio is most serial blocker among drivers at speed. That gets Milka off the hook.

She gives me hope that my dream of racing an Indycar is not yet gone. In all seriousness, I am glad to see them coming down on her lack of pace. Ride buyers have always existed, but man she is something....